Where did the energy in the CMB go to?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the fate of energy in the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) as the universe expands. Participants explore the implications of redshift on photon energy and the conservation of energy in the context of cosmological expansion, touching on theoretical frameworks and interpretations from general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that as space expands, photons are redshifted, resulting in a loss of energy, yet they question where this energy goes, invoking the first law of thermodynamics.
  • Others argue that the energy is not lost but merely stretched out, comparing it to a rubber band, although this analogy is challenged regarding its applicability to photon energy.
  • Some participants propose that the energy lost by CMB photons contributes to the expansion of the universe, while others question this interpretation, suggesting that it may slow down expansion instead.
  • A later reply emphasizes that general relativity does not conserve energy in the same way classical physics does, complicating the discussion about the fate of CMB energy.
  • There is a contention regarding the relationship between gravitational effects and redshift, with some asserting that redshift occurs independently of gravity, while others argue that curvature in spacetime plays a crucial role.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the implications of their arguments, particularly regarding the application of general relativity to the problem of energy conservation in an expanding universe.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the fate of the energy in the CMB or the implications of redshift. Multiple competing views remain, particularly regarding the role of gravity and the interpretation of energy conservation in the context of general relativity.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential misapplication of classical gravitational concepts to general relativity, as well as unresolved questions about the mechanisms behind energy loss and the nature of redshift in expanding space.

  • #61
Garth said:
Well, empty, (and therefore?) homogeneous and isotropic.
I think this does not follow. I can imagine a space which is empty and inhomogeneous (may be with some gravitational waves propagating through it).

Garth said:
R00 = R0000 + R1010 + R2020 + R3030 = -3d2R/dt2/R

so these components are not all zero simply because space is homogeneous and isotropic.
You are right, but note that my claim was that if space is homogeneous and isotropic and the Ricci tensor vanishes, then all components of the Riemann tensor are zero.
 
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  • #62
Garth said:
Such a transformation is called a conformal transformation and was first explored by Fred Hoyle and Javant Narlikar in the late 1960’s. I have followed up this line of thinking in my work on ‘http://www.kluweronline.com/oasis.htm/5092775’.
Could you please explain why and how a scalar field is needed in such theories? Is it needed in order to locally modify matter to explain redshift and have a physical equivalence with the expanding frame?
 
  • #63
hellfire said:
I think this does not follow. I can imagine a space which is empty and inhomogeneous (may be with some gravitational waves propagating through it).
And what would be the source of this inhomogeneous gravitational radiation?

hellfire said:
You are right, but note that my claim was that if space is homogeneous and isotropic and the Ricci tensor vanishes, then all components of the Riemann tensor are zero.
Agreed.
hellfire said:
Could you please explain why and how a scalar field is needed in such theories? Is it needed in order to locally modify matter to explain redshift and have a physical equivalence with the expanding frame?
The Brans Dicke scalar field was introduced to fully include Mach's Principle into GR. It does so, even though it keeps inertial masses constant by varying G. Self Creation Cosmology on the other hand varies particle masses (to include gravitational potential energy) and keeps the observed value of G constant. In fact it has two G's, on that is 'felt' by atomic matter and the other 'felt' by relativistic energy such as e-m radiation.
Experiment and observation have constrained the BD scalar field to be so weak most people ignore it, however interest in Dark Energy and the requirements of QG have kept interest in it alive. So far no experiment has yet been carried out that can distinguish between GR and SCC, until now - the GPB experiment, result due in a few months!

Garth
 
  • #64
Hi Garth! I think GPB will not support SCC. But you might still be right... will discuss that later. My reasons are very unorthodox... no ZPE involved...
 
  • #65
Garth said:
And what would be the source of this inhomogeneous gravitational radiation?
I think it does not need of any source to be part of a solution to the Einstein's equations. But you are right if you say that gravitational waves without any material source might not have any physical meaning.

Garth said:
The Brans Dicke scalar field was introduced to fully include Mach's Principle into GR. It does so, even though it keeps inertial masses constant by varying G. Self Creation Cosmology on the other hand varies particle masses (to include gravitational potential energy) and keeps the observed value of G constant. In fact it has two G's, on that is 'felt' by atomic matter and the other 'felt' by relativistic energy such as e-m radiation.
Experiment and observation have constrained the BD scalar field to be so weak most people ignore it, however interest in Dark Energy and the requirements of QG have kept interest in it alive. So far no experiment has yet been carried out that can distinguish between GR and SCC, until now - the GPB experiment, result due in a few months!
Thank you. One question more: how is the redshift explained in the frame where the universe is observed to be static? I assume the properties of matter must vary somehow. Is the scalar field needed for this?
 
  • #66
Chronos said:
Hi Garth! I think GPB will not support SCC. But you might still be right... will discuss that later. My reasons are very unorthodox... no ZPE involved...
If quantum theory is correct, the potential energy of the ZPE fields is tremendous, and there is no true "vacuum" in our universe, just the ZPE ground state plus or minus any fluctuations and polarization the field might be capable of. Any cosmology that does not include the mass/energy of the virtual particles of the ZPE will fail. I do not believe that we need to search for non-baryonic dark matter - the baryonic (though evanescent) virtual particles of the ZPE are already proven to exist by demonstrations of the Casimir force. If the EM field of the ZPE can be polarized by the presence of mass, we no longer need dark matter.

Andrei Sakharov and others hinted at the relationship between vacuum energy and gravity/inertia years ago. Others have studied the relation more recently, but a limitation of the papers that I have found is that the authors fail to treat the ZPE field as a real field, capable of polarization and density fluxes. This will have to be addressed before quantum theory and GR can be reconciled.

I have suggested before that we need to measure the speed of light between the plates of a Casimir device, to verify that the speed of light in that restricted ZPE field is higher than that in an unrestricted vacuum. Somebody currently involved in ZPE research has informed me that this expected result is called the Scharnhorst Effect, and that our instrumentation is not yet sensitive enough to detect that effect experimentally. It is nice to know that somebody else is on this track, though.
 

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