Which Canadian University is Best for Mathematics and Physics Majors?

[Werg22]

I applied to Mathematics/Physics at all three. Now, say I get admitted into all three, which one should I chose? My current plan is to later attend grad school in the US (hopefully at a school with a big name), and I was wondering which of these universities will help me the most to get that done. I hear Waterloo is the best of its kind in Canada, but Toronto and Mcgill have a better reputation among admission offices. What do you suggest?

 

[neurocomp2003]

there all good schools...so it doesn't really matter. Waterloo will probably prepare you for work after undergraduate and you could probably get NSERC schols then ...but if you just want to focus on research UFT might be better(depending on your grades)...also UFT has a lot of stuff in walking distance...but waterloo is a nice quiet place...mcgill has an underground from what I've heard which coudl be nice.

 

[Werg22]

Thanks there! But I forgot to mention that I wanted to study in the US after...

 

[JasonRox]

Thanks there! But I forgot to mention that I wanted to study in the US after...

I vote Waterloo.

The schools in the US clearly know what school Waterloo, especially for mathematics.

 

[flybyme]

also at waterloo you'll be close to iqc and pi

 

[cscott]

I vote Waterloo but I go there :D

 

[Werg22]

Hummm are you guys sure? My physics teacher who studied, graduated and taught at Stanford told me that UoT and Mcgill applicants are more likely to get in and have a better reputation. I'm kind of confused now...

 

[morphism]

Maybe Average Joe American doesn't know what Waterloo is, but graduate schools definitely do.

 

[JeffN]

All three are good schools with very different cities. I know that it may seem insignificant when you're thinking about your long term goals right now, but do think about which city you'd rather live in for the next four ears. More things you should think about is the size of the student body at each school, what the social atmosphere is like, etc..

 

[Jacob Chestnut]

An undergraduate from Waterloo would have as good a chance as anyone to get into my math graduate program. In fact, I know at least two people from there that were accepted here. They were both also accepted to Stanford as far as I know.

 

[ChaoticLlama]

I applied to Mathematics/Physics at all three. Now, say I get admitted into all three, which one should I chose? My current plan is to later attend grad school in the US (hopefully at a school with a big name), and I was wondering which of these universities will help me the most to get that done. I hear Waterloo is the best of its kind in Canada, but Toronto and Mcgill have a better reputation among admission offices. What do you suggest?

Things like 'reputation' & 'prestige' are ideas that universities use to confuse high school applicants.
I'll will say this: Yes it does make a difference which university you attend. however, when you are looking at McGill, UofT, and UW, think of it more like a menu than a 'who won the race' comparison. Go into the program *you* believe to be the best. As long as you can keep your grades above 80%, and take on a job or responsibility here and there you will be in grad.

"Going to a school with a big name", I never want to hear you say that phrase again. You should like a stuck-up @$$. EVERY university has merits.
I personally attend UW because they're co-op program is amazing. you have to research the programs that each university offers and make the decision yourself.

 

[Werg22]

Ok. For a science/mathematics major how does the COOP program help? I wonder if you have to sacrifice some of the things that students not in COOP have... Also, if I decide to study mathematical physics at Waterloo will I still be able to choose between grad studies in math and physics? I'm not sure in which of the two fields I'm heading right now and I'm not ready to chose right now. Here is some info on their mathematical physics program:

http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/programs/math_phys.html"

 

[JeffN]

the only 'sacrifice' that a co-op student makes is that he will be in school 2 or so terms more than a non co-op student (in waterloo, at least). i think it's a great opportunity to make good money and gain experience in different lines of work.

you can choose to do your mathematical physics degree through the faculty of science or through the faculty of math. Basically, it's a physics degree that is heavier on the math with little labwork OR it's an applied math degree with a very heavy focus on physics. So I guess unless you want to go into experimental physics or something like C&O or pure mathematics, you're good for grad school in either fields.

 

[Werg22]

"So I guess unless you want to go into experimental physics or something like C&O or pure mathematics"

I am considering pure mathematics above all in the mathematical field... What do I do?

 

[JeffN]

I thought you said you wanted to do mathematical physics?

If you wanted to, I guess you could do a double major in mathematical physics and pure math, but that would be very hard, since the mathematical physics program is pretty tight in terms of scheduling. On the other hand, a minor in pure math isn't too bad, and there is an applied math/ pure math double major program that's also availible.

if you're interested in doing pure math then, maybe applying for the math faculty at Waterloo is a better option. The way it works is that you do your first year in math as an 'honours math' student, taking algebra, calculus, CS and two electives each term. Once you finish your first year, THEN you apply to have your major changed to math-phys, pure math, applied math...etc, whereas in science, you directly enroll in mathematical physics in your first year.

 

[Werg22]

I want to study both pure math and theoretical physics (I though mathematical physics would give me that opportunity). The thing is, I don't want to chose one over the other right now - I'm not ready. I want to report the decision to after graduation. I did in fact apply to the faculty of math... Now what's your suggestion?

 

[JeffN]

I'm getting the impression that you don't really know the distinction between pure and applied math.

The thing is, terms like "theoretical", "pure", and "applied" carry connotations that people tend to get hung up over. It really is a somewhat pretentious distinction, and I think that a lot of students go into university wanting to study "theoretical physics" or pure math thinking that they are somehow more challenging or significant than their "applied" counterparts.

That being said, the type of mathematics most branches of physics is concerned with are very different from the kind of math pure math students study, and mathematical physics is basically an applied math degree with a concentration in physics, which in no way reflects the respective difficulties in each program.

It's pretty much impossible to see the differences in each program until you actually get here and take some courses, so I'd say that in your position, I'd opt to go into honours math, take physics electives (and labs, depending on how busy you want to be), and see where you want to go from there.

 

[Werg22]

So the choice would have to be made right after the first year? If so, that makes it a difficult decision... When I say "pure math" I'm talking about the kind of mathematics that doesn't necessarily have any application... I'm far more interested into becoming a professor and research mathematical theory than focusing on problems relevant to an industry or something of the likes. And when I say theoretical physics, it's because I am interested into "thinking about theories" rather than "thinking about proving theories".

 

[JeffN]

So the choice would have to be made right after the first year?

Courses in the department of pure math don't actually start until third year, so the earliest you can take them is your 2B term. Up to then, Your schedule is pretty flexible, so you can take the courses that satisfy the mathematical physics program and put off making a decision up until your second year.

When I say "pure math" I'm talking about the kind of mathematics that don't necessarily have an application...

I'm not sure why you're saying that you don't want to study math that is applicable to other subjects, since physics is pretty much the quintessential example of applied mathematics, and you specifically said that you wanted to do mathematical physics

And when I say theoretical physics, it's because I am interested into "thinking about theories" rather than "thinking about proving theories".

"thinking about proving theories" is exactly what pure math is all about!

Judging by what you said, it seems like applied math is what you're looking for, but like I said earlier, it's impossible to tell before you actually take some courses...so I'd say that since you applied for the honours math program already, you shouldn't really worry about the differences in pure and applied math or theoretical and experimental physics until you take some math courses, try out some labs, talk to an advisor here and whatnot. It really is hard to tell what you want to spend all that time and money studying until you get a taste for it, so have fun in your last few weeks of high school.

 

[ChaoticLlama]

In co-op (engineering), the only negative impact is it takes 1year longer to complete your degree. But the positives are numerous: you get that experience that employers are always looking for, you make money, you gain a better understanding of the concepts you learn in the class. Academically, the programs are identical.

If you are looking at grad, UW is among the top schools in Canada for quality of education. But as I said, you'll receive an amazing education at any of of the ones you listed.

"thinking about theories" rather than "thinking about proving theories".

I may be ignorant, but I believe those two go hand-in-hand. You need to defend yourself!

Regarding admission requirements:

From the physics site http://gwp.on.ca/program/admissions.html

An honours degree in physics or equivalent, with first or upper second class standing, is normally required for entry into an MSc program; an MSc degree from an approved university or college is normally required for entrance into a PhD program. It should be noted that students will be admitted to either of these research programs only if a advisor can be found for their research. Since there are a limited number of openings each year, applicants are advised to state alternative areas of research on the preference form supplied.

Students who, in the opinion of the Admissions Committee, have insufficient background to enter the MSc program directly, may be advised to enter a qualifying year. Their applications will be considered upon the completion of that year.

From the math site Math

A 75% overall standing in the last two years, or equivalent, in a four-year Honours Bachelor's degree or equivalent is the minimum requirement for admission to a Master's program. Departments and Faculties may set higher admission requirements.

A minimum of two letters of reference from academic referees are required for admission to a Master's program. Departments or Faculties may set higher requirements.

 

[Werg22]

I meant mathematics/physics (as in two different disciplines). Not necessarily mathematical physics... sorry for the confusion. By "thinking about proving theories" I meant "thinking about labs that will prove or disprove the theory" - I like to prove things on paper. Otherwise, I absolutely adore to prove mathematical identities, theorems and other truths. You could say that physics and mathematics represent two different fields for me - as if I liked music and biology at the same time.

 

[JeffN]

in that case, it's probably a good idea to apply to the science faculty as well (don't you get 3 applications with OUAC?). That leaves a spot to apply to UofT, and you can apply to Mcgill through their own system. good luck!

 

[Werg22]

Yeah I applied to the faculty of science... but then if I'm admitted at both programs what do I do?

 

[JeffN]

well, like i said earlier, you can always go into math and take science electives and labs and put off making a decision until about half-way through your second year. Should you decide that you want to take a lot of labs and other science courses, I guess you could always switch into the science faculty in your second year..

 

[Werg22]

The Mcgill joint honour in mathematics and physics seems very interesting:

http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/ugrads/math.html"

Would this be more convenient to me?

Also would COOP help me get into grad school?

 

[lleonard]

The Mcgill joint honour in mathematics and physics seems very interesting:

http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/ugrads/math.html"

Would this be more convenient to me?

Also would COOP help me get into grad school?

Whether it is convenient to you is something that I think you can only decide for yourself.

Grad school will care about research, which is definitely possible on COOP terms. I don't know about other jobs though, I am sure someone else could fill us in.

 

[Werg22]

Hummm. Ok, I have to get informed on Mcgill's research program. For any mathematician out there, is the program that Mcgill offers actually good enough for me to be able to head into pure mathematics? Also, UoT has a similar joint program, I'll look into it.

 

[neurocomp2003]

u don't need COOP if you get NSERC research scholarships (USRAs)...granted COOP will give you more money(3-4x)...but from what i heard from UW students chances of actual research work is limited...some were actually secretaries at their work place or guinea pig coders.

USRAs are pretty standard research opportunities in Canada...but you need some min GPA.

 

[Werg22]

Are Toronto and Mcgill research focused? I've looked into their research programs but I don't know how it goes for undergrads...

 

[JasonRox]

When I say "pure math" I'm talking about the kind of mathematics that doesn't necessarily have any application...

I used to think that was Pure Mathematics, but really it isn't. I don't think you can possibly do mathematics without any applications. First and foremost, a lot pure mathematics seems to be motivated by the possible applications in the first place.

 

[JasonRox]

Are Toronto and Mcgill research focused? I've looked into their research programs but I don't know how it goes for undergrads...

Well, I'd say they are.

Toronto has Paul Selick and he's suppose to be one of the top topologists in Canada.

 

[Werg22]

Heh... I just forwarded an email to Waterloo asking them if there is any program that will satisfy what I'm looking for (something that will allow me to chose after graduation). Also does the department of science at Mcgill compare to the other two universities? I've also been admitted to a joint honours in physics and mathematics at Carleton university. How does that hold up?

 

[JasonRox]

Heh... I just forwarded an email to Waterloo asking them if there is any program that will satisfy what I'm looking for (something that will allow me to chose after graduation). Also does the department of science at Mcgill compare to the other two universities? I've also been admitted to a joint honours in physics and mathematics at Carleton university. How does that hold up?

If you're paying for school, Carleton is good. They're number #1 for bursaries and scholarhips. It seems like a pretty good school.

Is it that hard to choose a school though?

Like, I would choose Waterloo and the debate would be over. Seriously, for mathematics and theoritical physics, like there is no debating needed. They're number #1. Don't waste your time pondering which school to go to based on Academics. They're number #1 in that department for your areas period. You can talk about research and all that, but it's undergraduate school you're getting into. That's the last thing on your mind. Why? All schools have the same undergraduate research programs basically. It's all NSERF funded stuff. So, again no debate when it comes to undergraduate research.

You should ask yourself questions like, do I want live near some clubs, are there lots of hot girls, is the campus nice, are the students cool or obnoxious, etc...

 

[tmc]

uOttawa's physics/math program allows one to choose either physics or mathematics after graduation. They also have an extremely active math department.

 

[JasonRox]

uOttawa's physics/math program allows one to choose either physics or mathematics after graduation. They also have an extremely active math department.

They allow you to do that everywhere. I've never heard of a school not allowing you to choose afterwards. Just about every school in Ontario offers Physics/Mathematics. So, like I said, no reason to ponder about this things.

Note: McGill is no exception.

 

[Werg22]

I haven't heard of such a program at Waterloo... As for the surroundings of the university, that's kind of important to me. But Waterloo is close enough to Toronto which has lots of clubs and parties going on, don't you think?

 

[JasonRox]

"Mathematical Physics: an integrated set of courses in mathematics and physics."

Right from the website.

Also, you do realize you can choose some of your own math classes, right? So, just take the Pure Math stuff you want.

Also, even if the program doesn't exist, you can double major anyways. Call them and ask. They'll let you do it. They'll warn you that's it's hard, but no one is going to stop you from double majoring.

 

[Werg22]

Isn't mathematical physics a whole discipline by itself? From what I understand, it's not exactly a mix of pure math and theoretical physics as its name suggests... Double major? I haven't seen this on the application... So you're saying they'll custom make it for me?

 

[JasonRox]

Isn't mathematical physics a whole discipline by itself? From what I understand, it's not exactly a mix of pure math and theoretical physics as its name suggests... Double major? I haven't seen this on the application... So you're saying they'll custom make it for me?

Call them and tell them that's what you want.

It's not custom. Lots of students just do it.

Or why not just go into Pure Mathematics, and take a bunch of Physics courses. It's not like you need the Physics Major on the degree. Graduate schools will still take you.

 

[Werg22]

Ok thanks man. I'll call them to get informed.

 

[JasonRox]

Ok thanks man. I'll call them to get informed.

You might have to stay five years though. Just to warn you.

 

[neurocomp2003]

if your looking for lifescience/psychophys: mcgill & UFT > UW
if your looking for biophys: mcgill &UFT >UW
if your looking for astrophys or materials type of physics: probably UFT>MCGILL&UW.

if your looking for nano/mems: not sure...UA
if your looking for QM: probably UW>UFT>MCGILL.
if your looking for cs/math: UW
if your looking for cs/phys/math: mmmm that's hard to say i know UFT has a program.

your best bet is to talk to the students and target specific profs.
U should ask UW how common it is for their studnets to get USRAs.

 

[ak416]

Either Toronto or Waterloo. They are top in Math. I don't know much about Waterloo, but I do go to Toronto and I think it is perfect preparation if you want to go into grad school for Math/Physics. In your 4th year or even your 3rd year you can select from graduate level courses in such as topology, abstract algebra, real analysis. So when you complete your 4 year degree you already have all the requirements needed for a masters in mathematics and you can go straight into PHD (well at least for the UofT grad program). Just remember in UofT there are 3 different kinds of programs: a minor, major, and and a specialist. A specialist is much more involved, so I would recommend looking into Specialist in Mathematics and Physics: http://www.artsandscience.utoronto.ca/ofr/calendar/prg_mat.htm
As for the physics courses, the only problem I find with them is that they are taken by many non math specialists, so a lot of the math is simplified or handwaved. But I think this is normal in any university, since the whole point is to learn the intuition behind the physics. Also, in your 4th year there are "Applied Math" courses you would take in General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, which give a more mathematical formulation of the subjects. So overall UofT is good preparation, just watch out for your GPA, it tends to be lower than in other universities.

 

[^__^]

I don't know why the debate is needed. Go to UToronto's websites, browse the faculty members' CVs. Many of them graduated from Harvard, MIT, Princeton, and Berkeley - the best four without any doubts. Most other remained profs graduated from European top schools, and they taught at Yale, Stanford, etc.

Then go to Waterloo's Websites. Many graduated from Toronto and Waterloo.

Go to US news research only ranking section, see where Utoronto ranks and try to find waterloo.

Of course, the above arguments only apply for pure maths study. If you want to get a job, of course go to waterloo. Their maths graduates are pretty hot in the job market.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I don't know why the debate is needed.

Especially two years after the fact.

 

[^__^]

Especially two years after the fact.

People keep asking the same questions. I hear this question for more than 10 times. Physics forum is a popular place; for me I see reasons why i state the fact. Strictly speaking, in contrast to most people, I am not debating; i just list the facts (they are not my personal opnion).

You are welcomed to say I'm silly, and perhaps (probably) I am. I see reasons why i shall list the above facts for folks who want to be pure mathematicians. I just care about them, not which university versus which university, reputation of universities.

Thank you very much for your opinion.

 

[dvs]

Well, I was curious and I had some time to kill, so I decided to look at where non-emeriti regular faculty got their PhDs. The count:

Toronto:
Harvard 4
MIT 0
Princeton 8
Berkeley 5

Waterloo:
Harvard 3
MIT 3
Princeton 2
Berkeley 6
(and this is excluding the mathematically inclined CS folk)

Not that this means anything, at all. In fact some of the really impressive people at both schools hold PhDs from "lesser" universities.

The bottom line is that both universities are good - but Toronto's graduate program most definitely comes out on top. However, as far as I can tell, this (really old) thread is about the undergraduate programs at these schools. In this case it doesn't really matter where you go, as long as you go some place good. Because let's face it: an undergrad won't really benefit from the fact that his/her university has top notch geometric representation theorists or operator algebraists.

 

[^__^]

Thank you very much for you information. I heard this from people but I didnt really count the numbers. I apologise if the information i claimed is incorrect.

But to my knowledge, for utoronto, many people do not have personal website links abt their CVs on the web page, if one really wants to count it, one has to get the full names and check on "math phd trees" I believe the numbers listed above would be a lot bigger (perhaps for both universities). I haven't been keeping track of the people at toronto, but i know there is at least one MIT guy.

I agree that undergrads probably don't benefit from top notch geometric representation theorists or operator algebraists. But on average, I would like to be educated and work under a faculty on average with more good people.

Thank you for your opinions.

 

[whybother]

As far as I know, UofT has the only internationally reputable graduate math department in Canada. Undergraduate education you can probably get from anywhere, but if you really care about the quality of active researchers and real reputation of the department, no one in my graduate department in the states has heard of Waterloo.

 

[^__^]

When I tried to get some research experience in the summer as an undergrad, I think i was lucky enough to see many good people are available to supervise undergrads at the fields I am interested in (a berkeley prof, a princeton prof, a russian prof, a berkeley emeritus). This also applies when one could be supervised as an undergrad, take grad courses in their 3rd/4th year (sometimes 2nd year), or do a reading course, hence my opinion.