Who Reigns Supreme: Muggles or Wizards?

[Sebastian Martinez]

The muggles have the atomic bomb, so I don't think that Voldemort and Dumbledore are capable of handling that.
Muggles are smarter because they rely on their intelligence and imagination to make things happen while the wizards just rely on words.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

That doesn't make them "smarter", I think, just more adept at innovating. I don't remember any instance where a wizard came up with a "new" spell in the HPverse.

But yeah, the wizards didn't seem to have any weapons of mass destruction. They would have had to fight a guerrilla war, and those are usually long, hard, and costly.

Scenario: A dark wizard does the killing curse on someone in public. Eight or nine muggles pull firearms and waste him.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

That doesn't make them "smarter", I think, just more adept at innovating. I don't remember any instance where a wizard came up with a "new" spell in the HPverse.

Sectumsempra (had to google for the spelling) was invented by snape as a child, it's the non-verbal spell that slices someone up. Also the Weasley Twins develop all sorts of magical items that they go onto sell in their shop, IIRC some of them were objects that maintained protection spells around the wearer and they were so good the Ministry ordered hundreds.

I'd say that this, plus a few other instances (explicit and implied) show that the wizard world also researches and innovates new magic. Different to muggles sure, but in the HPverse there's a whole extra set of physical laws (magic) that can seemingly only be manipulated by specific people (wizards)

But yeah, the wizards didn't seem to have any weapons of mass destruction. They would have had to fight a guerrilla war, and those are usually long, hard, and costly.

True, except the wizards have a few huge advantages:

1) They already have experience hiding in muggle society (admittedly it may become harder if they are actively hunted)

2) A number of their spells make point 1) easier, like hiding a house between two others on a street or casting a spell that makes muggles want to leave when they enter an area

3) Their offensive magic is extremely capable on a close-quarters setting. A well trained wizard could likely block incoming fire from weapons, disarm multiple opponents, pull them out of cover, mind control/stun/kill them etcetera.

4) Their regular magic would be extremely capable at circumventing muggle military/security doctrine. Specifically they'd make excellent assassins. Pretty much every wizard can teleport virtually anywhere in the world, they also have access to invisibility cloaks. No political or military leader would be safe from a wizard invisibly popping into existence in their bunker and killing them (or placing them under mind control).

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

But was that a "new" spell, or one he found and modified? /splittinghairs.

As for the second part of your post: Explosive vests.

 

[Enigman]

A) Imperius.
Take out the leaders of muggle offensive and force a peace treaty.
B)Polyjuice.
Steal identities of the major players who can't be imperio'd
C)Inferius.
Zombie Apocalypse.
D)Transfiguration.
One muggle-born wizard with the knowledge of antimatter to threaten total global annihilation.
E)Fiendfyre
Devastate a city in a single night

Aside from these ridiculously easy ways they could take over the world, technology randomly malfunctions around them. If the wizards went up against the muggles the war would be over before you could say 'Expecto Patronum' thrice (each time as futile as the last).

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I'd forgotten about Fiendfyre, a passable WMD. Thanks.

 

[James Holland]

E)Fiendfyre
Devastate a city in a single night

just to say a nuke could do that in a matter of seconds.
I believe the threat would be posed more by the magical creatures. especially dragons and dementors.
the only full blown battle I can remember in Harry Potter was at the end in Hogwarts and that appears to be relying largely on pre made defences e.g. the stone army. which leads me to believe that in an offensive when they are forced to approach a muggle position they would be torn to shreds as i find it hard to believe even a very powerful wizard would not be able to keep back 3000 bullets in a minuet (rate of fire of a modern mini-gun) so would rely on defence and ambushes.
i don't recall a wizard air-force or any purpose built flying machines (yes i know about the flying car) and so air strikes and mass bombing would force them to keep moving in small bands for fear of a heavy raid. there is no navy the only vessel i can remember was the tall ship that the other school used.
however the wizards would easily have the element of surprise as they can teleport from any fireplace.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Durmstrang's galleon had a student operating it, so it can't be that hard. I think the wizards had been limiting themselves so as to keep covert. We haven't seen a wizard war economy or their version of totaler krieg.

 

[James Holland]

well I'm only 14 and i can fly a plane
its not as hard as everyone makes it out to be

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

well I'm only 14 and i can fly a plane
its not as hard as everyone makes it out to be

And let's not forget how easy Simon Masrani made flying a helicopter look. ;)

 

[James Holland]

great job their arn't so many dinosaurs know

 

[jackwhirl]

D)Transfiguration.
One muggle-born wizard with the knowledge of antimatter to threaten total global annihilation.

If it came to war, I've got a feeling at least some of the muggle-born would side with their families.

 

[James Holland]

very good point

 

[Ryan_m_b]

The issue for a modern police/security/military force in a "war on magic" would be finding the Wizards. Hogwarts, the ministry, diagon alley, platform 9&3/4 all are hidden right in the muggle world but muggles can't even notice them. Hell for the quiditch cup tens of thousands of wizards decend on a single campsite and no one is any wiser. Carpet bombs, tanks, infantry, nukes are all useless if you have no target.

So it would all come down to whether or not muggles could develop technological means of locating, and counteracting, Wizards. Given some of the atrocities committed in the name of the war on terror (e.g torture) it could get very dark and desperate indeed.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Would the Dark Wizards side with the muggles just to get rid of the mudbloods?

 

[James Holland]

probably not as at least some of the mud bloods would side with their family and freinds

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

probably not as at least some of the mud bloods would side with their family and freinds

"some would" implies "some wouldn't". Remember, Moldywart was a mudblood himself.

 

[JorisL]

He wasn't, he was a half-blood (child of a witch and a muggle), not perfect but not as bad as a muggleborn.

Also I'm muggleborn and find the usage of mudblood offensive^*[*] Tongue-in-Cheeck

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

He wasn't, he was a half-blood (child of a witch and a muggle), not perfect but not as bad as a muggleborn.

Also I'm muggleborn and find the usage of mudblood offensive^*[*] Tongue-in-Cheeck

Yeah, been a while since I read the books. Anywho, it's rather unlikely that there would be a clear line of demarcation among the wizards. Harry could have been affected by his time at

• St Brutus's Secure Centre for Incurably Criminal Boys

 

[James Holland]

i would conclude in an all out war the wizards would lose but with sufficient stealth and skill they could crumble governments and crush nations before such a war began.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

They have experience at going covert, it was be tough to root them out.

 

[James Holland]

but if one half-blood or mud blood sided with the muggles then all the secrets would be lost. such as teleportatoin, locatoins how to enter the ministry of magic ect

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

That would be a severe problem, if the turncoat knew all the secrets.

 

[James Holland]

well if they were a student they would know platform nine and three quarters which is enough to get into the wizard world

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Knowing where a place is is different to be able to get somewhere. I'm not convinced that knowing where 9&3/4 is is enough to get to the platform. If anyone could fall through that barrier then dozens of times a day muggles would accidentally fall through trying to lean on a wall. Same goes for Diagon Alley and Hogwarts. The school is a great example of the Wizards being able to hide in plain site because it's a literal castle estate in the countryside that no one has ever accidentally walked into.

A wizard that joins the muggles (voluntarily or otherwise) would be a threat but not a silver bullet. Whilst the muggle authorities would be desperately trying to reverse engineer magic and create tactical responses given their ineffective equipment wizards could be popping in and out of the offices of military/cultural/political leaders and placing them under a mind control curse.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Knowing how to get somewhere is different to be able to get somewhere. I'm not convinced that knowing where 9&3/4 is is enough to get to the platform. If anyone could fall through that barrier then dozens of times a day muggles would accidentally fall through trying to lean on a wall. Same goes for Diagon Alley and Hogwarts. The school is a great example of the Wizards being able to hide in plain site because it's a literal castle estate in the countryside that no one has ever accidentally walked into.

A wizard that joins the muggles (voluntarily or otherwise) would be a threat but not a silver bullet.

Agreed. No magic, no passage.

 

[James Holland]

however how dose this proses work
harry was only told he needed to run at it so maybe leaning doesn't work but an object travailing at sufficient velocity can go without any other means.

 

[James Holland]

Agreed. No magic, no passage.

harry didn't use magic to get through.

also if wizards can teleport why do they need 9&3/4 to travel?

 

[James Holland]

Knowing where a place is is different to be able to get somewhere. I'm not convinced that knowing where 9&3/4 is is enough to get to the platform. If anyone could fall through that barrier then dozens of times a day muggles would accidentally fall through trying to lean on a wall. Same goes for Diagon Alley and Hogwarts. The school is a great example of the Wizards being able to hide in plain site because it's a literal castle estate in the countryside that no one has ever accidentally walked into.

A wizard that joins the muggles (voluntarily or otherwise) would be a threat but not a silver bullet. Whilst the muggle authorities would be desperately trying to reverse engineer magic and create tactical responses given their ineffective equipment wizards could be popping in and out of the offices of military/cultural/political leaders and placing them under a mind control curse.

in addition if the muggles could not get through they could still blockade it and kill anyone who did come through
with only a handful of invisibility cloaks it would be almost impossible to retrieve enough hair for poly juice and so their deception tactics would not work

 

[Ryan_m_b]

however how dose this proses work
harry was only told he needed to run at it so maybe leaning doesn't work but an object travailing at sufficient velocity can go without any other means.

That's because he was nervous, every other time they casually walk right through. I can't remember any specific example but it's pretty well implied wizards can detect muggles. Like the spell for the quiditch cup that specifically makes muggles who approach the area wander off.

harry didn't use magic to get through.

also if wizards can teleport why do they need 9&3/4 to travel?

In-universe answer: kids can't teleport and Hogwarts is protected by an anti-teleport spell.

Real answer: the potterverse is not a rigorous or well thought out world. It's entertaining sure, but there's a bunch of stuff that doesn't make sense if you think too hard.

in addition if the muggles could not get through they could still blockade it and kill anyone who did come through
with only a handful of invisibility cloaks it would be almost impossible to retrieve enough hair for poly juice and so their deception tactics would not work

Sure they could wait outside and try to catch anyone who came out, assuming they could see it happen (despite thousands of families and students poring onto 9&3/4 no one ever notices them disappearing through a wall which implies a spell is at work preventing anyone from noticing) but loosing that is no great loss to the Wizards.

Whilst they don't have many cloaks they could possibly make more if needed for war. In any case though they can simply teleport a team into a targets bedroom/bathroom when they're alone or with few bodyguards. Quickly charm them all with the imperious curse, order them to do whatever and teleport out.

Back at base they can have someone waiting for them to get back. If they get back and succeed then all is good. If they fail then the person back at base uses a time turner to go back before the mission and tell them to change plan. They try again and again until they succeed.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

harry didn't use magic to get through.

also if wizards can teleport why do they need 9&3/4 to travel?

Harry was magic, both parents were wizards and he had done magic before arriving at the platform. If the passage didn't filter out muggles why even bother hiding it?

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

harry didn't use magic to get through.

also if wizards can teleport why do they need 9&3/4 to travel?

Not all wizards can apparate. Especially children who haven't been to wizard school at all yet. The train is a portal to the school, allowing students to pass the wards without further filtering.

 

[James Holland]

i suppose that that can't be argued with.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Just a SWAG on my part, but it makes sense, especially for the first years. The boys make an alternative arrival the second year, implying that they can get through the wards by then without a problem. The wards failed miserably when it allowed Dr. Who, I MEAN Barty Crouch, Jr., into the castle. Somebody should check that glitch and fix it.

 

[Hoophy]

The muggles would win the war because although their current technology my not be adapted to every wizard protection, they would adapt because they would know what to look for. The current technology is not perfect for fighting wizards because they have had no need to. Surely muggle ingenuity would allow for them to develop weapons designed for bringing down wizards. Also it is my understanding that muggles far outnumber wizards. It is likely some wizards will defect to the muggle side and help them develop weapons especially good at taking down wizards. Perhaps even the muggles would discover the science behind wizard "magic" and be able to utilize it with the power of science! Magic nukes! I have a lot of confidence in muggles ability to adapt and progress, with knowledge of wizards their magic related technology is sure to increase. I don't like to think of the wizards as a superior race, I like to think that they are equal but with different strengths and weaknesses that may not be obvious. That's just me. If they are equal than with proper strategy and superior numbers I think muggles would win in a war with wizards.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

So, muggle science would be effective at countering wizard magic.

How would that work again?

 

[jackwhirl]

In the end, the winner is always going to be determined by the author. Whatever the scenario, there's always the potential for deus ex machina, whether via "science" or "because magic" to upend everything.

 

[Hoophy]

In the end, the winner is always going to be determined by the author. Whatever the scenario, there's always the potential for deus ex machina, whether via "science" or "because magic" to upend everything.

Kill joy :)

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

In the end, the winner is always going to be determined by the author. Whatever the scenario, there's always the potential for deus ex machina, whether via "science" or "because magic" to upend everything.

The aliens arrive and they're wizards. Game over for the muggle, who become auxiliary house elves, but without the perks.