Why do gauge theories win out?

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  • #51
tom.stoer said:
The Gribov ambiguity issue (*) is much more complicated due to the complex mapping class group (something which is widely ignored in all QG approaches). This essentially means that the above mentioned construction for Q and U may break down even classically b/c the harmless sentence "up to topologically non-trivial transformations" becomes harmful.

I am not sure about the Gribov ambiguity issue, but Torsten's approach is all about dealing with this "up to topologically non-trivial transformations" . So, it's not all QG approaches.
 
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  • #52
@Garrett:

So, you plan to use that "spare space" to put together 3 generations of your mode as excitations on a DS space.
 
  • #53
garrett#48 said:
... The resulting integrand, F * F, is H invariant, so, sure enough, the action integrates to an integral over our 4D manifold,
S = V_H \int_M ( \frac{1}{4} R*R + R * EE + EE*EE + T*T )
which does happily include the Einstein-Hilbert action term, a cosmological constant term, and some other stuff.

This seems like a remarkably skillful and efficient way to arrive at E-H action with cosmological constant!
 
  • #54
Section VI, cartan geometrodynamics, of the following paper. It talks a bit of what Garrett is talking about, but with a simpler group structure. This and the other papers also they also talk about an observer space.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1111.7195v4

Spontaneously broken Lorentz symmetry for Hamiltonian gravity
Steffen Gielen, Derek K. Wise
(Submitted on 30 Nov 2011 (v1), last revised 10 May 2012 (this version, v4))
In Ashtekar's Hamiltonian formulation of general relativity, and in loop quantum gravity, Lorentz covariance is a subtle issue that has been strongly debated. Maintaining manifest Lorentz covariance seems to require introducing either complex-valued fields, presenting a significant obstacle to quantization, or additional (usually second class) constraints whose solution renders the resulting phase space variables harder to interpret in a spacetime picture. After reviewing the sources of difficulty, we present a Lorentz covariant, real formulation in which second class constraints never arise. Rather than a foliation of spacetime, we use a gauge field y, interpreted as a field of observers, to break the SO(3,1) symmetry down to a subgroup SO(3)_y. This symmetry breaking plays a role analogous to that in MacDowell-Mansouri gravity, which is based on Cartan geometry, leading us to a picture of gravity as 'Cartan geometrodynamics.' We study both Lorentz gauge transformations and transformations of the observer field to show that the apparent breaking of SO(3,1) to SO(3) is not in conflict with Lorentz covariance.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1210.0019

Lifting General Relativity to Observer Space
Steffen Gielen, Derek K. Wise
(Submitted on 28 Sep 2012 (v1), last revised 4 May 2013 (this version, v3))
The `observer space' of a Lorentzian spacetime is the space of future-timelike unit tangent vectors. Using Cartan geometry, we first study the structure a given spacetime induces on its observer space, then use this to define abstract observer space geometries for which no underlying spacetime is assumed. We propose taking observer space as fundamental in general relativity, and prove integrability conditions under which spacetime can be reconstructed as a quotient of observer space. Additional field equations on observer space then descend to Einstein's equations on the reconstructed spacetime. We also consider the case where no such reconstruction is possible, and spacetime becomes an observer-dependent, relative concept. Finally, we discuss applications of observer space, including a geometric link between covariant and canonical approaches to gravity.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1304.5430

Extensions of Lorentzian spacetime geometry: From Finsler to Cartan and vice versa
Manuel Hohmann
(Submitted on 19 Apr 2013 (v1), last revised 27 Jun 2013 (this version, v2))
We briefly review two recently developed extensions of the Lorentzian geometry of spacetime and prove that they are in fact closely related. The first is the concept of observer space, which generalizes the space of Lorentzian observers, i.e., future unit timelike vectors, using Cartan geometry. The second is the concept of Finsler spacetimes, which generalizes the Lorentzian metric of general relativity to an observer-dependent Finsler metric. We show that every Finsler spacetime possesses a well-defined observer space that can naturally be equipped with a Cartan geometry. Conversely, we derive conditions under which a Cartan geometry on observer space gives rise to a Finsler spacetime. We further show that these two constructions complement each other. We finally apply our constructions to two gravity theories, MacDowell-Mansouri gravity on observer space and Finsler gravity, and translate their actions from one geometry to the other.The fist paper of the list cites the case of SO(4,1)/(SO(3,1)) as being studied by West and Stelle and another by mansouri. Those are behind paywalls, but I checked them, and they are not quite as explicit at that.

I also found this, about discrete representations of deformations of SO(3,1):

http://www.math.utah.edu/~kapovich/EPR/def.pdf

Curiously, it uses Dehn surgery on knots to find such classifications.

That is not very different with what Torsten uses, except that he does it directly on a generic 4 manifold, through the analog of Dehn surgery in 4 dimensions, Casson Handles, and then he identifies the gauge fields with the different types of torus on tangent space:

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1006.2230.pdf

The propagating solitons are identified with propagating exotic structures here:

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1303.1632.pdf
 
  • #55
MTd2: Stranger than that. I now see spacetime as part of a larger Lie group that deforms, with the vacuum being dS. For three generations, there will be three different dS's in the Lie group.

Marcus: Yes, I was quite happy to see that action work out so well. And, of course, the F*F YM action comes out as well when working with a larger Lie group. The trickier bit will be getting the action for fermions from something that looks like D \psi * D \psi. This new paper is a nice step in that direction though: http://arxiv.org/abs/1308.1278
 
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  • #56
garrett said:
For three generations, there will be three different dS's in the Lie group.

Do you put them by hand?
 
  • #57
garrett said:
MTd2: Stranger than that. I now see spacetime as part of a larger Lie group that deforms, with the vacuum being dS. For three generations, there will be three different dS's in the Lie group.

I'm puzzled. If you want to get gravity do you not need to have just ONE 4d submanifold contained in the group, wavy, but identified with G/H
 
  • #58
MTd2, Marcus: Recall how this works for gauge theory. Different sections of the total space correspond to different gauge choices. These are what I meant by different dS's inside the Lie group. They're related by Lie group automorphisms. At least this is how I think it will work -- we're catching up to where I am with calculations. The main new insight in this model building has been to see that dS spacetime is a submanifold (actually, a subgroup) of larger groups, rather than just a fiber bundle base. So we get to start with a large Lie group and let it go wavy, to get everything we want.
 
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  • #59
garrett said:
...The main new insight in this model building has been to see that dS spacetime is a submanifold (actually, a subgroup) of larger groups, rather than just a fiber bundle base...

I don't want to bug you with questions when the problem is really with my insufficient grasp (not with your ability to explain.) I look forward to seeing your article or web-posting on this. Hope it includes some introductory material and graphics as well as technical exposition.

It's not clear that my feedback, in particular, would help you progress towards this goal. But at least for now I will tell you.

I'm kind of locked in on the picture that has a "fiber bundle base". I can't visualize how you could ever get away from having a PREFERRED section which carries information about the 4d geometry and therefore about CAUSALITY.

BTW I imagine, when you say that G/H is actually a subgroup, that it must correspond somehow to "translations" in dS space. This simplest kind of subgroup, just translations. I'm near the brink of confusion and not sure this makes sense.

I fantasize that there is somehow one G/H section that is, in fact, preferred and carries causality information, but you have not mentioned this, so maybe there isn't! Maybe the causal structure somehow infuses the entire big wavy group. That then would be a radically different ONTOLOGY which would of course cause every conservative cell in my body to rise up in horror and indignation. :biggrin:

In any case, good luck with carrying through with this project and getting to the primary exposition stage, so you can spring it on the actual experts. It's clearly a really interesting new approach.
 
  • #60
Just kidding in post#59 about extreme ontological conservatism--it might be really interesting to get a different grip on causality that did not depend on having one preferred 4d submanifold (or bundle base) where it emerges. Perhaps having it more diffuse. There's also the comparable idea of a Tomita-flow-induced state dependent "foliation" of the observable *algebra and the remote chance of a thematic connection.
I haven't started a separate thread for discussion of "Why Gauge?" and comment on that paper. How does it work to keep both topics in this one thread?

If anyone would prefer to have things sorted out more, please say.I'm hoping Garrett will continue "full steam ahead" expounding this G/H unification idea and we can comment both on it and on the question of why gauge-type theories are so successful and ubiquitous. If anybody (esp. Garrett) finds this awkward, inconvenient, impeding in any way please do communicate that either by post or PM.

On the "why gauge?" topic, I want to note what may have been (one of?) the most thoughtful/informative comment(s) so far, strangerep's post #26:
strangerep#26 said:
Just finished a first reading of Rovelli's paper...

I've always been uncomfortable with the way diffeos are described as GR gauge transformations. Certainly they constitute a symmetry of the theory, but... if a theory has a Lagrangian that's invariant under ordinary 3D rotations, we don't call that SO(3) group a gauge symmetry, but rather a geometric symmetry.

OTOH, "gauge groups" like the usual U(1) in EM arise because there's a freedom in how many ways one may decompose a composite field (electrons+photons) into an "electron field" and a "photon field" distinct from each other. Dirac gave an alternate way of decomposing the composite field such that the "new" electron field is the original electron field dressed with a coherent photon field. The new field is invariant under the U(1) transformations, unlike the original electron field. And there's definitely something important in this, since it (a) yields the correct Coulomb field for an electron, and (b) all the usual IR divergences in QED scattering are banished to all orders if we adopt the dressed field as the "physical" asymptotic states.

Come to think of it, I don't what the maximal dynamical group is for the equations of (full) classical electrodynamics, or even whether anyone has actually computed it. Dynamical groups tend to be larger than the obvious geometric symmetry groups. E.g., for the Kepler problem (and Schrodinger equation for hydrogen) we find SO(4,2).

But getting back to Rovelli's paper, the proposition (iiuc) that gauge features are associated exclusively with coupling seems reasonable -- though I'd turn it around and say those features arise because of how we attempt to decompose a nontrivial system (field) into simpler component fields.
 
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  • #61
Thanks Marcus. I've been happy to drop in on PF and provide a different point of view on why gauge theory is ubiquitous, and a bit on what I'm working on. I don't wish to monopolize the discussion though, and should get back to the work. So I'll let you get back to regularly scheduled programming, unless folks have questions.
 
  • #62
garrett said:
Thanks Marcus. I've been happy to drop in on PF and provide a different point of view on why gauge theory is ubiquitous, and a bit on what I'm working on. I don't wish to monopolize the discussion though, and should get back to the work. So I'll let you get back to regularly scheduled programming, unless folks have questions.
You haven't monopolized! On contrary I think I haven't left you enough room. Add more to this expo at any time! But in any case let's sum up, for the time being, how your proposed new world picture answers the "Why gauge?" question.

I'll make a stab at it, and urge you to say it better. Let's try to make it succinct even if there is some oversimplification. Why do gauge theories always turn up?

Because the world is a very large Lie group G which is deformed, thought of as wavy. And this G has a particular subgroup H (the master gauge group) of co-dimension 4. (Maybe that's the wrong terminology, I mean that G/H can be represented by a submanifold of G of dimension 4.) So that partly at least explains why we see space-time as 4D---because G/H is 4D. On the negative side, it leaves quantum mechanical reality unexplained. (But that's hardly a serious failing since nobody seems to have a good explanation for why QM.) And on the positive side it strongly suggests why we are always encountering gauge theories---namely we LIVE in a big one with H as the master gauge group. And the clincher is this equation:

S = V_H \int_M ( \frac{1}{4} R*R + R * EE + EE*EE + T*T )

S comes from a compellingly natural and beautifully simple action (see post#48) and this equation says that when integrated over the whole G it turns out to equal the volume of the master gauge group H multiplied by an integral over the submanifold M of some interesting curvature etc terms recalling the Einstein-Hilbert action AND the cosmological constant!
So we could say that this compellingly natural *grand* action EXPLAINS the GR action with cosmo curvature constant (as well as affirming the gauge-ness of the world.)

Yes I know, this is awfully slap-dash--almost a parody, but I need to boil things down so I can remember the important pieces and get a take-home message. So if you have time, you might say it better, more truthfully, more succinctly. I think it's a fascinating idea.
 
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  • #63
We still have Strangerep's explanation of "Why gauge?" which I quoted a couple of posts back in post#60. Basically he says, I think, that there is one big theory and we separate out parts of it which we study in isolation. And he says that "gauge" is how separate parts talk to each other.

And he says more. He says there is no one unique RIGHT way of separating the whole music up into separate instruments. there is a lot of arbitrariness about how you divide out into various components. So there HAS to be this element of physical meaninglessness we habitually see in gauge.

And he observes that his picture is similar to the one in http://arxiv.org/abs/1308.5599 just turned around, going at the same thing from the other direction.
 
  • #64
Rovelli sums it up nicely at the end of his paper. Why gauge? Because the world is fundamentally relational. We say the same thing in http://users.etown.edu/s/stuckeym/FOP2013.pdf. This is a paper in progress for an IOP volume on quantum gravity; I'll be adding K on the hypercube for U(1) this week, but it has the same relational structure as the Dirac K, as you might imagine (K is the difference matrix on the graph a la lattice gauge theory). We deviate from Rovelli technically in a few ways, the most important being he's still viewing the world dynamically while our fundamental axiom is adynamical. We agree gauge is key, but it's not fundamental for us -- gauge is the result of 4D relational decomposition of the worldtubes of trans-temporal objects. Specifically, we construct the worldtubes of interacting trans-temporal objects -- properties represented by sources that can be trans-temporally identified through space in Lorentz invariant fashion -- using elements of "spacetimesource," so it's background independent. Essentially, we don't think of worldtubes *in* spacetime, but rather build worldtubes *and* spacetime together via elements of spacetimesource. So, why gauge? Because the (3+1)D dynamical world is built relationally from adynamical 4D "blocks" of spacetimesource and that relationalism results necessarily in K with a non-trivial null space, i.e., gauge. Divergence-free sources then reside in the column space of this 'relations matrix' K. So, gauge is key, but not fundamental per se.
 
  • #65
That's pretty good, Marcus. One issue with it, though, is that for larger Lie groups than Spin(1,4) we don't get a 4D G/H. But we can specify a dS submanifold as a subgroup, or by identifying Spin(1,4) as a subgroup before modding by Spin(1,3) to get dS. Here's a shot at a succinct summary:

We see gauge fields everywhere because the universe is a large Lie group that is deforming over a four dimensional submanifold. This is described by a generalized Cartan connection,
C = \frac{1}{2}\omega + E + A + \psi
deforming from the Lie group's Maurer-Cartan form, with curvature and the Yang-Mills action integrated over the larger manifold being the action for the fields, particles, and interactions in the four dimensional world we see around us.
 
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  • #66
marcus said:
But no: the successful theories are always gauge theories. Why is that?

In the last years I have noticed that people is not telling anymore "local gauge" and "global gauge", they say simply "gauge" to refer both to "local gauge" and to classical gauge invariance, and then all the discussion to explain the role of the covariant derivative and the "minimal coupling" is being forgotten, at least here at the amateur/divulgative level.
 
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