Why entropy change is different

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of entropy change in thermodynamic processes, specifically comparing two methods for determining the change in entropy for a real gas during an isothermal process.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore two different methods for calculating entropy change, questioning the validity of the equations used in Method 2. There is a focus on the implications of the isothermal process and the role of internal energy.

Discussion Status

Some participants have offered guidance regarding the correctness of the equations used, particularly in Method 2. There is an ongoing exploration of the assumptions underlying the equations and the nature of the processes being analyzed.

Contextual Notes

Participants are discussing the implications of using Maxwell relations and the definitions of heat transfer in the context of real gases, noting that assumptions about internal energy may affect the validity of their approaches.

laser1
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Homework Statement
see description
Relevant Equations
$$\Delta S = \int_i^f{\frac{dQ_{rev}}{T}}$$
1729507216659.png

I tried two different methods when solving this question and have no idea why.

Method 1:
Using the Maxwell relation of $$\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial V}\right)_T=\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V=\frac{R}{V-b}$$ then integrating it, I get $$\Delta S = \int_i^f\frac{R}{V-b}dV$$

Method 2:
$$\Delta S = \int_i^f\frac{P}{T}dV$$ as isothermal implies that ##dQ=PdV##. Next, substituting in ##P## gives $$\int_i^f\left({\frac{R}{V-b}-\frac{a}{TV^2}}\right)dV$$
 
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laser1 said:
Homework Statement: see description
Relevant Equations: $$\Delta S = \int_i^f{\frac{dQ_{rev}}{T}}$$

View attachment 352504
I tried two different methods when solving this question and have no idea why.

Method 1:
Using the Maxwell relation of $$\left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial V}\right)_T=\left(\frac{\partial P}{\partial T}\right)_V=\frac{R}{V-b}$$ then integrating it, I get $$\Delta S = \int_i^f\frac{R}{V-b}dV$$

Method 2:
$$\Delta S = \int_i^f\frac{P}{T}dV$$ as isothermal implies that ##dQ=PdV##. Next, substituting in ##P## gives $$\int_i^f\left({\frac{R}{V-b}-\frac{a}{TV^2}}\right)dV$$
Method 2 is incorrect because your starting equation is incorrect.
 
Chestermiller said:
Method 2 is incorrect because your starting equation is incorrect.
##dQ=PdV## in isothermal process is incorrect? I am not sure why it is incorrect. Thanks
 
laser1 said:
##dQ=PdV## in isothermal process is incorrect? I am not sure why it is incorrect. Thanks
Because, in an isothermal process for a real gas, dU is not zero.
 
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