B Why is it assumed communication through entanglement would be FTL?

  • #51
PeterDonis said:
What you are passing on might indeed be the current consensus, but I do not think that is an adequate response to the obvious point that, since non-relativistic QM is just an approximation to QFT, quantum foundation discussions that are solely based on non-relativistic QM--which is basically all of them--are incomplete. Those many top writers have surely heard of QFT, yes, but that doesn't mean their failure to include QFT in their foundations work can simply be ignored.
Where is QFT not included in the work on foundations? Of course, if you discuss non-relativistic approximation nothing prevents "spooky action at a distance" since nothing prevents faster-than-light causal interactions. In non-relativistic physics it's even the usual case since interactions are described by instaneously acting forces (like Newton's gravitational force) rather than retareded interactions as in relativistic (quantum) field theories.

The most real physics work about these foundational questions is made with photons, and there's no non-relativistic theory for photons. Indeed quantum-opticians use relativistic QFT to describe photons. Of course the theory of local interactions of photons with all kinds of equipment often is described with non-relativistic physics (like the theory of photo detection or the linear optics devices like lenses, mirrors, beam splitters etc.), but this is well-justified and doesn't lead to any contradictions with relativistic causality, because in such cases the retardation effects are indeed negligible since it concerns only local interactions between photons and the matter making up these devices. I also don't think that there's a principle problem to also treat these parts fully relativistically. The relativistic QFT is also worked out well for many-body systems (at least in thermal equilibrium, and that's usually what's needed for this purpose).
 
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  • #52
atyy said:
Here I mean collapse as a physical nonlocal process.

It is not correct to use the microcausality of QFT to object to the nonlocality of collapse, because
(1) microcausality does not refer to physical locality
(2) under appropriate assumptions, any physical variables reproducing the quantum predictions must be nonlocal - it is not possible to save locality by rejecting collapse.
Can you elaborate on both points further?

Microcausality tells us that local observable operators commute at space-like distances of their arguments. Particularly that's valid for any observable operator and the Hamilton density. Due to the commutativity the interactions in standard relativistic QFT (including QED and the entire standard model) are "local" in the sense that there are no causal effects that go faster than light. You also once agreed that there's no FTL communication possible within relatistic standard QFT, and this must be so due to the microcausality principle and the validity of the cluster-decomposition principle and Lorentz invariance of the S matrix.

(2) What's "nonlocal" in QT, and also in non-relativistic QFT I would rather like to call "inseparability" (Einstein had it right from the very beginning!). It refers to the long-range correlations between far-distant parts (or even more precisely between local (!) measurement results at far-distant places) described by entanglement. Of course, nothing in QFT contradicts these findings, and it's very accurately demonstrated that these predictions hold true, while local deterministic HV theories fail.

There's no need for an instaneous collapse with a dynamics somehow outside of the laws of physics to explains all these findings with the utmost relativistic entities we have at hand, i.e., photons!
 
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  • #53
DarMM said:
All that @vanhees71 is saying is that he doesn't see the necessity of collapse as a physical process.

I agree that microcausality of QFT is not an argument against signal-local theories that might be nonlocal in other ways, e.g. Bohmian Mechanics. I'm not sure if @vanhees71 would disagree either as the discussion has been confused by the use of different meanings for "collapse".

I don't think physical variables must be nonlocal to replicate QM predictions, that's just one way of explaining CHSH violations, but not the only one.
Bohmian mechanics is not formulated in a satisfactory way to reinterpret relativistic QFTs. Within non-relativistic QT as in non-relativistic classical mechanics of course non-local interactions are the rule not the exception. Thus you cannot argue with non-relativistic approximations when it comes to the question in which sense Einstein causality is fulfilled (or as claimes not fulfilled) within relativistic microcausal QFTs. In the standard interpretation of relativistic microcausal QFTs, the interactions by construction are local (and realized via assuming the microcausality constraint on local observable operators).

The irony is that most accurate Bell tests are performed with photons, and these are relativistic. All these experiments do not contradict standard QED in any way, and this shows that indeed everything concerning the violations of various forms of Bell's inequaltity (including CHSH) is in full accordance with standard QED, which assumes local interactions (in the sense of microcausality) but at the same time of course does not exclude the entanglement and the corresponding correlations between local (sic!) measurements on far-distant parts of an entangled quantum system (like two or more polarization-entangled photons; note that even the momentum-position EPR "paradox" has recently been tested with photons, and also there nothing contradicts standard QED).

Concerning "collapse", I think it's describing nothing more than the adaption of the state description by an observer after having performed a measurement. It's not a physical process. It is also clear that, as Peres famously wrote (e.g., in his book "Quantum Theory: Concepts and Methods"), within this minimal statistical interpretation there cannot be contradictions between the different descriptions of a situation depending on what's locally known about one part of an entangled system. E.g., with photon pairs prepared in the polarization-singlet state, when A measures the polarization in z-direction to be horizontal, she immediately knows that B's photon will be found to be vertically polarized (concerning the same z-direction). Nothing changes for B. He'll simply find randomly (with probability 50%) a vertically polarized photon. The correlations due to the entanglement can only be revealed when comparing the measurement protocols by A and B. It's indeed not possible to be revealed by the local measurements on the single photons alone, and that's why A and B cannot FTL communicate using polarization-entangled photons nor can there be any contradictions between A's and B's description of their local single-photon measurement's outcomes: Both simply find perfectly (maybe the most perfectly possible) unpolarized photons.
 
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  • #54
vanhees71 said:
Bohmian mechanics is not formulated in a satisfactory way to reinterpret relativistic QFTs.
I agree, it's just that there's currently no proof something like Bohmian Mechanics won't eventually be able to. So my response to @atyy that microcausality doesn't technically rule out such theories.
 
  • #55
DarMM said:
I agree, it's just that there's currently no proof something like Bohmian Mechanics won't eventually be able to. So my response to @atyy that microcausality doesn't technically rule out such theories.
That's of course true, but I think it's so hard to find a satisfactory Bohmian reinterpretation of relativistic QFT precisely to this "tension" between Einstein causality and non-locality. It's really a quite subtle mathematical way, relativistic microcausal QFT manages to make local interactions compatible with the strong non-local correlations described by entanglement, and indeed, as Weinberg stresses, microcausality is only a sufficient but (maybe) not necessary condition for a relativistic QFT. So far, however, nobody has found a working non-local relativistic QFT without some flaws. E.g., afaik there's no working theory including interacting tachyons ;-).
 
  • #56
vanhees71 said:
That's of course true, but I think it's so hard to find a satisfactory Bohmian reinterpretation of relativistic QFT precisely to this "tension" between Einstein causality and non-locality.
It depends on what one means by "satisfactory". Are you familiar with the presently existing approaches and what exactly do you find unsatisfactory with them?
 
  • #57
DarMM said:
All that @vanhees71 is saying is that he doesn't see the necessity of collapse as a physical process.

I agree that microcausality of QFT is not an argument against signal-local theories that might be nonlocal in other ways, e.g. Bohmian Mechanics. I'm not sure if @vanhees71 would disagree either as the discussion has been confused by the use of different meanings for "collapse".

I don't think physical variables must be nonlocal to replicate QM predictions, that's just one way of explaining CHSH violations, but not the only one.

I agree that nonlocal physical variables are not the only way of explaining the CHSH violations.

With regards to @vanhees71, in the context of this thread, I think @DrChinese basically gave a correct answer - one could quibble with word choice, and maybe not stating exactly the other "outs" apart from physical nonlocality - but he was basically on target answering the OP - and @vanhees71 seems to have substantial problems with it, making @DrChinese's correct and simple reply to the OP lost. I don't think the OP has been served.
 
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  • #58
What precisely do you think is correct in @DrChinese 's answer? He is always arguing in terms of fictitious local HV theories, which are not QT and then claims that my standard interpretation using QFT were a minority statement, though it's the opposite way: The majority of physicists, particularly quantum opticians, interprete the fact that Bell tests prove local deterministic HV theories wrong, while they confirm standard Q(F)T, and indeed there's no contradiction between any experiment and this standard relativistic QFT.
 
  • #59
atyy said:
I agree that nonlocal physical variables are not the only way of explaining the CHSH violations.

With regards to @vanhees71, in the context of this thread, I think @DrChinese basically gave a correct answer - one could quibble with word choice, and maybe not stating exactly the other "outs" apart from physical nonlocality - but he was basically on target answering the OP - and @vanhees71 seems to have substantial problems with it, making @DrChinese's correct and simple reply to the OP lost. I don't think the OP has been served.
I agree that @DrChinese 's answer is correct and a simple exposition of the answer to OP's question.

I think @vanhees71 mistook @DrChinese 's statement regarding a lower bound for nonlocal influence velocity in a nonlocal hidden variable theory as a statement that there had been observed violations of Relativity and that was when the discussion moved off.

@vanhees71 I also don't think @DrChinese is advocating local classical hidden variables, he was just commenting on the experimental bounds on nonlocal hidden variable theories.
 
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  • #60
Well, then @DrChinese and I have a mutual misunderstanding for a long time :-((.

The experimental bounds on nonlocal HV theories are utmost tight. It's among of the most accurate precision decisions between any two physical theories ever!
 
  • #61
atyy said:
The problem is that @vanhees71 is claiming that QFT is local in a way that is excluded by the Bell inequality violations.

No one is contesting that QFT is local in the sense of not allowing superluminal communication.

I agree with this entirely. QFT cannot possibly be classically local causal in a relativistic sense as ALL such theories are excluded by Bell, plus the thousands of experiments that exclude local realism. And of course, there are no known superluminal signals known at this time, and they are also excluded by all currently accepted theory.
 
  • #62
PeterDonis said:
1. Where does he state that about QFT? Bear in mind that I am not asking what he says about quantum foundations; I've read plenty of what he's written about quantum foundations, and none of it says a thing about QFT; all of his writings on the subject that I have read, like all the other quantum foundations literature that I have read, uses non-relativistic QM as its framework. So the fact that it all talks about states of spatially separated systems does not at all answer the question I am asking, because of course non-relativistic QM assigns states to spatially separated systems. Nobody is disputing that. But that does not mean that QFT does so too. To establish that you need to show me a reference about QFT.

More generally, your argument appears to be that, since all of these well-known scientists are using non-relativistic QM instead of QFT to discuss quantum foundations, QFT must make no difference to quantum foundations. I think that is a weak argument. At the very least, if it really is true that everybody working in the field believes that, it would be nice to see a reference to a textbook or paper where they explain why; I have never seen one, and while I have not read the entire literature in the field, I have spent some time looking since it seems so obvious to me that there should be such an argument if everyone in QM foundations is simply going to ignore QFT. Every time someone posts a link to a new QM foundations paper here at PF, I look at it just to see if QFT is mentioned. So far it never has been.

2. Again, you need to define what you mean by "quantum nonlocality". If it means "correlations that violate the Bell inequalities", then of course you are correct, and nobody has disputed that. Nobody is disputing the actual experimental results. The only disputes are about what kind of story you want to tell in ordinary language about the experimental results, and whether you need to pay attention to QFT in order to tell such a story.

If you mean something else by "quantum nonlocality", then you're going to have to explain what, because at that point "quantum nonlocality" no longer means the thing that is "established by perhaps a thousand experiments", but some other theory-dependent claim.

3. My position, as should be obvious from the above, is that "quantum nonlocality" in the sense of correlations between spacelike separated measurements that violate the Bell inequalities, is an obvious experimental fact. QFT predicts this experimental fact, so QFT is perfectly consistent with quantum nonlocality in this sense.

4. QFT is also "locally causal" in the sense that spacelike separated measurements commute.

5. I would rephrase this as: the need to explain how measurements on entangled systems at macroscopic spacelike separations can show correlations that violate the Bell inequalities. That makes it precise exactly what experimental facts you are referring to.

This is not an experimental fact but a theory-dependent statement. The experimental fact is correlations that violate the Bell inequalities.

1. Seriously, I cannot fathom what you intend here. To say an author espousing the existence of quantum nonlocality is referring to theory OTHER than QFT makes no sense whatsoever. If there were some caveat about QFT, they would say so. It's not like QM is quantum nonlocal and QFT is not. And yet again you ask me to prove what you say, not what I say - which I have demonstrated by quote after quote and could do for as many as needed. And yet... where is a single quote from an author saying QFT is local causal and/or Bell doesn't apply?

And if I'm wrong: What element of QFT renders a substantially different prediction for Bell inequalities than garden variety QM?2. Seriously, after referencing a 2019 book titled Quantum Nonlocality and presenting multiple quotes from top sources? Okay:

Vaidman: Given entangled particles placed at a distance, a measurement on one of the particles instantaneously changes the quantum state of the other, from a density matrix to a pure state."

Weinberg [minor paraphrasing]: "A measurement in one subsystem can change the state of a distant isolated subsystem faster than c."


3. I agree with this. :smile:

You skirt the edge of things by saying that they are correlations though, and not something more. In my example, I show how Alice steers Bob, and that occurs in ALL reference frames. Of course, if there is retrocausality then perhaps it is Bob that steers Alice (and I am not asserting that). Outside of that, I would have to say that Alice is in the driver's seat and is the causal agent of the steering of Bob's state. After all, she can steer Bob to any state she likes. Just to be clear: there is nothing Bob sees that indicates *by itself* what that new state is. There is no signal embedded via steering alone, of course you would need to know what Alice did to be convinced that steering occurred.

So I just don't see how you can miss that Alice causes Bob's state to change exactly according to what she measures. Cause, not just correlation. Forget QFT, this confirmed experimental fact supercedes theory.4. I'm not going to touch this. How this is meaningful in light of every evidence of the HUP at work is beyond my understanding. I think we already settled that I do not understand how your statement is correct AND yet non-commuting observables in an entangled QM system DO commute in an entangled QFT system.5. Again, you are watering down what everyone else is saying. See the quotes for 2 above, which indicate Alice is steering.

But even if Alice was NOT the causal agent, I would still say that there is some type of nonlocal connection. A and B do not "happen" to end up in the same state, out of an infinite number of such states. The measurement choice is a CRITICAL piece of the overall context.

@PeterDonis Thanks for continuing the discussion.-DrC
 
  • #63
DarMM said:
I don't think physical variables must be nonlocal to replicate QM predictions, that's just one way of explaining CHSH violations, but not the only one.

I agree with this, because no one understands the underlying mechanisms at work.

Ditto with whether or not collapse is physical. Certainly, in my example, which is basically the original EPR example: it LOOKS as if collapse is physical and involves action exceeding c. But that is before you consider the interpretations of QM, which seek to clarify/simplify things.
 
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  • #64
vanhees71 said:
What precisely do you think is correct in @DrChinese 's answer? He is always arguing in terms of fictitious local HV theories

[I said I wouldn't respond to Vanhees71, and now I am... :smile: ]

Just to clarify the glaring (and completely wrong) item about me: I am in no way advocating local hidden variable theories. Either we live in an observer dependent world (one that is contextual, there are no hidden variables); or we live in a world where there are nonlocal influences; or both. We know this after Bell. Any theory that does not follow Bell is excluded; and to the extent any theory denies both contextuality and nonlocality, it is excluded too. If anyone says that QFT denies both contextuality and nonlocality: then either their understanding of QFT is wrong, or QFT is wrong.
 
  • #65
DrChinese said:
To say an author espousing the existence of quantum nonlocality is referring to theory OTHER than QFT makes no sense whatsoever.

Sure it does. The authors talking about quantum nonlocality all talk about the Schrodinger Equation. The Schrodinger Equation is not QFT. It's non-relativistic QM.

DrChinese said:
It's not like QM is quantum nonlocal and QFT is not.

I have never made this claim so I don't understand why you bring it up.

All I am saying is that if all these authors talk about the Schrodinger Equation when they talk about quantum nonlocality, they are not talking about QFT.

DrChinese said:
What element of QFT renders a substantially different prediction for Bell inequalities than garden variety QM?

I have never claimed that it does. In fact I explicitly said the opposite, that QFT predicts Bell inequality violations, just as non-relativistic QM does.

DrChinese said:
after referencing a 2019 book titled Quantum Nonlocality and presenting multiple quotes from top sources?

None of which use QFT as their framework. Neither do the two quotes you give here.

DrChinese said:
I show how Alice steers Bob, and that occurs in ALL reference frames.

This can't be right since in some frames Bob's measurement occurs before Alice's if their measurements are spacelike separated. The non-relativistic language you and the authors you quote are using ignores this issue, but that doesn't mean it's not an issue.

DrChinese said:
this confirmed experimental fact supercedes theory.

There is no confirmed experimental fact that "Alice steers Bob". The confirmed experimental fact is that their measurement results show correlations that violate the Bell inequalities. You are confusing experimental facts with theory-dependent claims.

DrChinese said:
I do not understand how your statement is correct AND yet non-commuting observables in an entangled QM system DO commute in an entangled QFT system.

What non-commuting observables are you talking about? All "Alice" observables commute with all "Bob" observables (the observables being discussed here are all spin measurements). That is just as true in non-relativistic QM as it is in QFT. And for any pair of entangled particles, there is one "Alice" observable and one "Bob" observable.

The only non-commuting observables involved are multiple "Alice" observables in different directions, and multiple "Bob" observables in different directions. But there are never multiple "Alice" observables or multiple "Bob" observables involved for a single entangled pair. Each "Alice" particle only gets measured in one direction, and each "Bob" particle only gets measured in one direction.

DrChinese said:
See the quotes for 2 above, which indicate Alice is steering.

This is an argument from authority and it does not convince me. Either these authors are being sloppy in their language, or they don't mean what you are claiming they mean by that language, or they simply have not thought through what they're saying. It seems obvious that since the Alice and Bob measurements commute, neither can "steer" the other, since the results do not depend on the order in which the measurements are made. And the experimental evidence does not show that either one "steers" the other; all it shows is correlations that violate the Bell inequalities.

You appear to agree that nobody knows what underlying mechanism produces those correlations; but your claim about "steering" is a claim that we do know what the mechanism is--"steering" is precisely such a mechanism.

DrChinese said:
even if Alice was NOT the causal agent, I would still say that there is some type of nonlocal connection

I agree that it seems like there must be some underlying mechanism that produces the correlations that violate the Bell inequalities, and "nonlocal connection" is as good a name for this unknown mechanism as any. But the fact remains that the mechanism is unknown (and even our belief that there must be some such mechanism might possibly be wrong).
 
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  • #66
But that's the point! QFT is of course NOT a local deterministic HV, but completely in accord with Einstein causality, including the impossibility of FTL communication, and all observations, including the violation of Bell's inequalities.

What's shown concerning Bell is that local deterministic HV theories are ruled out. Relativistic QFT is not such a theory and is in full accordance with all findings concerning the violation of Bell inequatlities and there's nothing nonlocal that is not allowed to be nonlocal: The interactions are local (the microcausality constraint is fulfilled), the cluster-decomposition principle is valid. The "nonlocal correlations" (though "nonlocal" is a misleading term here! Einstein's term "inseparability" is a far better term for it) described by entanglement is of course there and must be in order to be consistent with the findings on Bell's inequality. What's excluded in fact IS Bell's local realistic HV theories. What's confirmed by the experiments is QT and particularly also relativistic local (microcausal) QFT! I think this is the point, where we cannot agree upon, but the experimental facts speak for themselves: It's simply a fact that Bell's inequalities are violated in all Bell measurements done so far, and at the same very high confidence levels the predictions of relativistic QFT are confirmed!

I'm not sure what you mean by "contextuality" here: It's of course clear that the specific correlations seen in Bell experiments depends on what's measured and which subensembles are considered. That's the key issue with entanglement swapping, as we have discussed recently in this forum too. In this sense of course QFT is "contextual" as any QT.
 
  • #67
DarMM said:
1. I agree that @DrChinese 's answer is correct and a simple exposition of the answer to OP's question.

2. I think @vanhees71 mistook @DrChinese 's statement regarding a lower bound for nonlocal influence velocity in a nonlocal hidden variable theory as a statement that there had been observed violations of Relativity and that was when the discussion moved off.

3. @vanhees71 I also don't think @DrChinese is advocating local classical hidden variables, he was just commenting on the experimental bounds on nonlocal hidden variable theories.

1. Thanks for saying so!

2. I am unaware of any experimental violation of either special or general relativity. Like many, I am confused as to how to reconcile these theories to the vast experimental evidence of Quantum Nonlocality; but I don't see the conflict between these as direct. It's more of an implied conflict, which is why the quantum interpretations exist.

3. As an advocate of the importance of Bell's Theorem, I say: No physical theory of local Hidden Variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of Quantum Mechanics.
 
  • #68
Demystifier said:
I don't think "ontology" is the right word here. In particular, in the path-integral formulation of QFT there are no field operators at all, but ontology should not depend on the formulation.

This is a fair point. Neither formulation has states for spatially extended systems, though, so those aren't part of the ontology either.
 
  • #69
DrChinese said:
I agree with this entirely. QFT cannot possibly be classically local causal in a relativistic sense as ALL such theories are excluded by Bell, plus the thousands of experiments that exclude local realism.

I do not see how the assumption that QFT as outlined by @vanhees71 is classically local causal is warranted. Essentially, it boils down to Mermin's tongue-in-cheek statement (American Journal of Physics 66, 753-767 (1998) , https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9801057):

"My complete answer to the late 19th century question “what is electrodynamics trying to tell us” would simply be this:
Fields in empty space have physical reality; the medium that supports them does not.

Having thus removed the mystery from electrodynamics, let me immediately do the same for quantum mechanics:
Correlations have physical reality; that which they correlate does not."

Assuming well defined and prepared values for correlations does not imply that the correlated quantities themselves have well-defined values, so I do not see any need to assume realism/non-contextuality for QFT.

I also somewhat disagree with the following point:

DrChinese said:
My point is the other way: experimental fact, plus virtually any assumption about quantum theory (QM or QFT or whatever that includes the HUP) shows us that Alice's choice of measurement basis casts Bob's particle into a pure state determined solely by Alice (from an infinite number of such).

I see no reason for this claim. There is a joint choice of measurement bases for Alice and Bob and QFT (and every correct theory) yields the correct results for this combination of measurements. Within this framework it does not matter which measurement comes first and one does not have to assume any causal influence. It of cause does not rule out such an influence either, but there is no need to assume one.
 
  • #70
PeterDonis said:
This can't be right since in some frames Bob's measurement occurs before Alice's if their measurements are spacelike separated.

Then you didn't read my example completely. The B particle is measured well after Alice steers. The B particle, distant at that time, is later re-routed back to Alice and is measured in Alice's reference frame (it could be measured by Bob, present there as well, who tells Alice the result). The point is that both measurements occur at the same place in the same frame, but one after the other, so there is no ambiguity about which comes first.

Surely it's not that difficult to see that relativity plays absolutely no role in this situation. There is no adjustment needed to the quantum expections regardless of reference frames anyway. You can have any measurement order, any reference frames, and the results are the same. Assuming no retrocausality (an easy assumption when we are debating quantum nonlocality), then either Alice steers Bob - or Bob steers Alice. Presto, we have spooky action at a distance, better known as quantum nonlocality.
 
  • #71
vanhees71 said:
What's excluded in fact IS Bell's local realistic HV theories. What's confirmed by the experiments is QT and particularly also relativistic local (microcausal) QFT! I think this is the point, where we cannot agree upon, but the experimental facts speak for themselves
I don't think @DrChinese is disagreeing with any of that, he clearly says he's not saying local hidden variables are true. As a third party this all reads as a discussion spun from confusing terminology.

You are using "local" to mean microlocality, @DrChinese is using it to mean classical correlations. Thus to him your denial of nonlocality appears as denying CHSH violation and to you saying QFT is nonlocal (by which he only means "contains nonclassical correlation") appears to be a rejection of microlocality and cluster decomposition.
 
  • #72
PeterDonis said:
I agree that it seems like there must be some underlying mechanism that produces the correlations that violate the Bell inequalities, and "nonlocal connection" is as good a name for this unknown mechanism as any. But the fact remains that the mechanism is unknown (and even our belief that there must be some such mechanism might possibly be wrong).
I couldn't agree more with what you said in the part I deleted. Thanks for telling @DrChinese what I'm telling him for ages in other words. Maybe it helps!

The only point is that you don't need any "unknown mechanism". It's all described by standard QT (and of course relativistic QFT, which is just a special case of QT with the special feature that it's in accordance with the SRT space-time structure and all causality constraints implied by this space-time structure) entanglement.

Entanglement occurs naturally when you have two separable parts of a system, e.g., two particles. Here separable means that you can prepare product states ##|\psi_1 \rangle \otimes |\psi_2 \rangle##, e.g., when you have to dinstinguishable (sic!) particles. Then the common Hilbert space is ##\mathcal{H}_1 \otimes \mathcal{H}_2##, which consists of course not only of product states but all linear combinations thereof. Of course, the product states are part of the Hilbert space, and thus it is possible to prepare the two-particle system in such product states. These are by definition the states, for which the particles are NOT entangled. Einstein called this very nicely "separability", i.e., there are states.

But as is easy to see, the separable states (i.e., the product states) are quite special, and indeed interactions between the two particles lead to linear combinations which cannot be written as product states, and then you call the parts of the system "entangled". That's the origin of the violation of the Bell inequalities and thus the stronger-than-classical correlations of far-distant parts on an entangled quantum system.

To start with you always use particles created in some local process and usually the entanglement is due to some conservation law:

E.g., in the original EPR argument you can think of two (asymptotic) free particles originating from a particle decay. The original particle has a pretty well defined momentum. Now suppose it decays at some time ##t=0## in some region (e.g., take an ##\alpha##-decaying nucleus in a cloud chamber, decaying to the ##\alpha## particle and the daughter nucleus). The resulting asymptotic free state is a free ##\alpha## particle and the doughter nucleus with pretty well defined total momentum and a pretty well defined relative position. Note that these to observables are compatible, and you can prepare the two-particle system in a product state of these two observables,
$$\Psi(r,P)=\psi_{\text{rel}}(r) \tilde{\psi}_{\text{CM}}(P).$$
This you can Fourier transform to the product state
$$\Psi(r,R)=\psi_{\text{rel}}(r) \psi_{\text{CM}}(R),$$
where ##\psi_{\text{CM}}(R)## is a pretty broad distribution.

Now it's easy to transform this to the single-particle positions. You simply need to set
$$r=x_1-x_2, \quad R=\frac{m_1 x_1+m_2 x_2}{m_1+m_2}.$$
Wrt. to these observables you end up in the entangled state
$$\Phi(x_1,x_2)=\Psi(x_1-x_2,(m_1 x_1+m_2 x_2)/(m_1+m_2))=\psi_{\text{rel}}(x_1-x_2) \psi_{\text{cm}}[(m_1 x_1+m_2 x_2)/(m_1+m_2)].$$
Through the usual manipulations it's easy to see that the probability distributions for both ##x_1## and ##x_2## alone are broad, i.e., both positions are pretty much indetermined. The same holds true for the momenta (which you get by Fourier transforming ##\Phi## wrt. ##x_1## and ##x_2## of course).

If you determine by a measurement, which can be as accurate as you wish, the position of particle 1, then you get also a narrow distribution for the position of particle 2 (since ##\psi_{\text{rel}}(x_1-x_2)## is narrowly peaked). The same is true in momentum space: Determining ##p_1## well also determines ##p_2##. Of course you can never determine both ##x_1## and ##p_1## well at the same time, because the precise position measurement prevents the momentum to be determined well too and vice versa.

As you see, there's no need for any further "mechanism" to describe the correlations due to entanglement (i.e., "inseparability") than the known quantum-dynamical rules, and entanglement is the rule rather than the exception.

If it comes to indistinguishable particles, it's even difficult to define separable states. For bosons the two-boson state with the two particles in the same state is an example. All other two-particle states are entangled in the one or the other observable due to the necessity of Bose symmetrization (most conveniently taken account of by using creation and annhilation field operators).
 
  • #73
PeterDonis said:
Sure it does. The authors talking about quantum nonlocality all talk about the Schrodinger Equation. The Schrodinger Equation is not QFT. It's non-relativistic QM
Technically it is in QFT, though not often used.

Usually the nonlocality in quantum foundations is defined in the ontological models framework which is a general framework that applies equally to discussing QM and QFT.

PeterDonis said:
There is no confirmed experimental fact that "Alice steers Bob"
I think @DrChinese may be referring to Quantum Steering which is a term in Quantum Information.
 
  • #74
Cthugha said:
1. I do not see how the assumption that QFT as outlined by @vanhees71 is classically local causal is warranted.

2. I also somewhat disagree with the following point:

DrChinese said:
My point is the other way: experimental fact, plus virtually any assumption about quantum theory (QM or QFT or whatever that includes the HUP) shows us that Alice's choice of measurement basis casts Bob's particle into a pure state determined solely by Alice (from an infinite number of such).

I see no reason for this claim. There is a joint choice of measurement bases for Alice and Bob and QFT (and every correct theory) yields the correct results for this combination of measurements. Within this framework it does not matter which measurement comes first and one does not have to assume any causal influence. It of cause does not rule out such an influence either, but there is no need to assume one.

1. Naturally I agree. :biggrin:2. I mostly agree with your statement, except you skip the situation in which one measurement unambiguously occurs first. So here's how I would summarize:

a. In a Bell test in which the order of Alice and Bob's measurements is NOT well defined: there is no clear underlying statement about causality that can be made. We agree on this.

b. In a Bell test in which the order of Alice and Bob's measurements IS well defined with Alice acting first: Alice can be said to steer Bob. (Of course the outcomes are themselves random and are not determined by any known factor.) This is what Weinberg means when he states: "according to present ideas a measurement in one subsystem does change the state vector for a distant isolated subsystem.. " Of course he is referring to the original EPR paradox as the basis for this statement, where ordering was assumed. But he also means that nothing currently prevents us from executing the experiment so that ordering is in fact clear.

c. Even in the b. case, there are quantum interpretations which there is no causality; i.e. the decisions of both Alice and Bob are part of the overall context. In these, the action at a distance cannot be said to be caused by anything and there is no direction of action. Relational Blockworld is such a theory, for example. So even though we say there is steering (which implies causal direction), this is more of a linguistic aid than anything else.NOTE: Just in case you would like a specific reference, here is an incredible experiment that demonstrates not only steering; it demonstrates ONE-WAY steering! That is: Alice can steer Bob but Bob cannot steer Alice! Of course, I am simplifying somewhat as this is a very complex setup.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1206.4446
The distinctive non-classical features of quantum physics were first discussed in the seminal paper by A. Einstein, B. Podolsky and N. Rosen (EPR) in 1935. In his immediate response E. Schrödinger introduced the notion of entanglement, now seen as the essential resource in quantum information as well as in quantum metrology. Furthermore he showed that at the core of the EPR argument is a phenomenon which he called steering. In contrast to entanglement and violations of Bell's inequalities, steering implies a direction between the parties involved. Recent theoretical works have precisely defined this property. Here we present an experimental realization of two entangled Gaussian modes of light by which in fact one party can steer the other but not conversely. The generated one-way steering gives a new insight into quantum physics and may open a new field of applications in quantum information.
 
  • #76
vanhees71 said:
But as is easy to see, the separable states (i.e., the product states) are quite special, and indeed interactions between the two particles lead to linear combinations which cannot be written as product states, and then you call the parts of the system "entangled". That's the origin of the violation of the Bell inequalities and thus the stronger-than-classical correlations of far-distant parts on an entangled quantum system.
Not quite. Nonclassical correlations are strictly stronger than entanglement. The hierarchy is:
Coherence -> Discord -> Entanglement -> Steering -> Nonclassical Correlations

Local hidden variable models can replicate entanglement and even steering. It's only the final level of the hierarchy they cannot replicate.
 
  • #77
I will respectfully repeat my many earlier requests:

1. I have provided repeated quotes, references, books, etc. that support everything I have said. At every turn, I have been either had the quote marginalized as if the author meant something else, or didn't know what they were talking about, or it was ignored. PeterDonis even dissed me for saying it was an argument from authority, when in fact forum rules require me to be able to back up what I say with suitable references. And I have been giving relevant quotes from the best. Please, quit marginalizing my proper support for my position. Which is:

Quantum Nonlocality (spooky action at a distance) is a generally accepted feature of Quantum Mechanics in all of its forms (from QM to QFT), as indicated by thousands of experiments and their respected authors.2. I have asked for quotes, references, etc supporting any position other than the above (especially the idea that QFT is local realistic or local noncontextual; or the idea that quantum interpretations are rendered unneeded because QFT answers everything). At no time has a single such reference been provided. (The most I have received is "read any book on QFT" which is absurd on the face of it.)

When anyone is challenged here, the protocol is to provide adequate specific clear references. So please: produce. Fair is fair. What I am saying (see bold above) is orthodox within the scientific community, and should be shielded if anything for that reason (although I have supported it many times over). The other position is far outside the norm, a position I have never read in a thousand papers on the subject (although I am ready and willing to stand corrected).

It makes no sense to tell newbies - or well-advanced readers for that matter - that current scientific consensus is that Quantum Nonlocality is not experimental fact, or that QFT explains Bell experiments by a purely local mechanism. No one knows the mechanism, that is where the interpretations come in - and why we have ongoing threads about these.

-DrC
 
  • #78
PeterDonis said:
There is no confirmed experimental fact that "Alice steers Bob". The confirmed experimental fact is that their measurement results show correlations that violate the Bell inequalities. You are confusing experimental facts with theory-dependent claims.

It seems obvious that since the Alice and Bob measurements commute, neither can "steer" the other, since the results do not depend on the order in which the measurements are made. And the experimental evidence does not show that either one "steers" the other; all it shows is correlations that violate the Bell inequalities.

You appear to agree that nobody knows what underlying mechanism produces those correlations; but your claim about "steering" is a claim that we do know what the mechanism is--"steering" is precisely such a mechanism.

I agree that it seems like there must be some underlying mechanism that produces the correlations that violate the Bell inequalities, and "nonlocal connection" is as good a name for this unknown mechanism as any. But the fact remains that the mechanism is unknown (and even our belief that there must be some such mechanism might possibly be wrong).

As I have said many times (and agreeing with you): no one knows the mechanism. As for steering: of course there are plenty of experiments where Alice "steers" Bob because Alice acts first. But that word ("steers") is a linguistic artifact, precisely because the mechanism is unknown. In fact, the idea that the future influences the past is a well accepted possibility within quantum mechanics (and I stress the word "possibility"). The point is that the well-documented effect is called Quantum Nonlocality (your "nonlocal connection"), whatever it is and however it happens. That is the case even though it APPEARS that Alice is steering Bob. I certainly don't dispute that if Alice measures first, that perhaps it is actually Bob steering Alice; or that neither steers either. So again, agreeing with you.

If you thought I was saying otherwise, my apologies as I was not clear. There is an effect called Quantum Nonlocality (also called spooky action at a distance); it is well documented by experiment; and it can be measured by correlations that cannot be explained by actions limited to a light cone.

And note that nowhere is QFT required for this discussion. QFT being an enhanced relativistic QM, the state of the art. Still it adds nothing substantive to resolve things - there certainly are no few interpretations today than 50 years ago. Many mysteries were well identified by 1935, and subsequent theory and experiment take us little farther than confirming this statement from EPR*:

"This makes the reality of P and Q depend upon the process of measurement carried out on the first system, which does, not disturb the second system in any way." * Of course they immediately dismissed this conclusion as unreasonable. :smile:
 
  • #79
DrChinese said:
1. Naturally I agree. :biggrin:

I am not sure, you got me right. ;) Just to make sure: my opinion is that the standard QFT version described in detail by @vanhees71 is not classically local causal. I do not actually see how one gets the impression that he describes it as such.

DrChinese said:
2. I mostly agree with your statement, except you skip the situation in which one measurement unambiguously occurs first. So here's how I would summarize:

a. In a Bell test in which the order of Alice and Bob's measurements is NOT well defined: there is no clear underlying statement about causality that can be made. We agree on this.

Yes, no problem here.

DrChinese said:
b. In a Bell test in which the order of Alice and Bob's measurements IS well defined with Alice acting first: Alice can be said to steer Bob. (Of course the outcomes are themselves random and are not determined by any known factor.) This is what Weinberg means when he states: "according to present ideas a measurement in one subsystem does change the state vector for a distant isolated subsystem.. " Of course he is referring to the original EPR paradox as the basis for this statement, where ordering was assumed. But he also means that nothing currently prevents us from executing the experiment so that ordering is in fact clear.

c. Even in the b. case, there are quantum interpretations which there is no causality; i.e. the decisions of both Alice and Bob are part of the overall context. In these, the action at a distance cannot be said to be caused by anything and there is no direction of action. Relational Blockworld is such a theory, for example. So even though we say there is steering (which implies causal direction), this is more of a linguistic aid than anything else.NOTE: Just in case you would like a specific reference, here is an incredible experiment that demonstrates not only steering; it demonstrates ONE-WAY steering! That is: Alice can steer Bob but Bob cannot steer Alice! Of course, I am simplifying somewhat as this is a very complex setup.

Well, quantum steering is a nasty beast, especially as the term goes back to Schrödinger, but was more or less ill-defined until Wiseman's seminal paper came out (PRL 98, 140402 (2007), https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0612147). I fully agree that quantum steering can be made to be one-way, but this does not depend on the temporal order of events, but on the "quality" of the states given to Alice and Bob. Bob's state is contaminated with additional vacuum, which is obviously uncorrelated with Alice's state. Thus, starting from a certain degree of "contamination", the space of available joint states depends more strongly on Alice's measurement than on Bob's and this is called one-way-steering. This does not change by adding long delay lines on either the side of Alice or Bob. Otherwise interpretations such as QBism would have been ruled out already.

DrChinese said:
It makes no sense to tell newbies - or well-advanced readers for that matter - that current scientific consensus is that Quantum Nonlocality is not experimental fact, or that QFT explains Bell experiments by a purely local mechanism. No one knows the mechanism, that is where the interpretations come in - and why we have ongoing threads about these.

I do not really see your point here. Maybe I am missing something simple. The consensus is that local realism is not a viable option. I fully agree with that. There is no consensus whether non-locality or non-realism/contextuality is more suitable (or both). Essentially, all @vanhees71 does, is to merge the minimal statistical interpretation with QFT and by doing so, QFT of course reproduces what is expected in Bell-type experiments. It just has the standard drawback of the minimal interpretation that some people find it lacking in terms of ontology. In a nutshell it is "shut up and calculate", which obviously does not require collapse or ontological non-locality and of course is fully described by knowing the state preparation procedures. However, QFT is of course silent on how to interpret the math.
 
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  • #80
DrChinese said:
Then you didn't read my example completely. The B particle is measured well after Alice steers.

But, unless I'm misunderstanding, the QM prediction for the correlations for this case is exactly the same as for the case where the measurements are spacelike separated, so one would expect the same underlying mechanism, whatever it might be, to be involved in both. So any such mechanism cannot be one that only makes sense if the measurements are timelike separated as they are in what you describe.

DrChinese said:
Assuming no retrocausality (an easy assumption when we are debating quantum nonlocality), then either Alice steers Bob - or Bob steers Alice.

I understand that this is your favored interpretation. I do not think it is justified to claim that it is an experimental fact. The experimental fact is correlations that violate the Bell inequalities.
 
  • #81
DarMM said:
Technically it is in QFT, though not often used.

Huh? The Schrodinger Equation is a non-relativistic equation.

If you want to say it appears in a non-relativistic approximation that can be derived from QFT, then yes, I have already mentioned that. But that's not the same as saying the Schrodinger Equation is relativistic. It isn't Lorentz invariant, so it isn't relativistic.
 
  • #82
DarMM said:
Usually the nonlocality in quantum foundations is defined in the ontological models framework

What is a good reference to learn more details about this framework?
 
  • #83
PeterDonis said:
Huh? The Schrodinger Equation is a non-relativistic equation.

If you want to say it appears in a non-relativistic approximation that can be derived from QFT, then yes, I have already mentioned that. But that's not the same as saying the Schrodinger Equation is relativistic. It isn't Lorentz invariant, so it isn't relativistic.
No I am saying it occurs in QFT not as a nonrelativistic approximation.

If ##\phi## is a generic field then we have:
$$i\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\Psi\left[\phi,t\right) = \hat{H}\left(\hat{\phi},\hat{\pi}\right)\Psi\left[\phi,t\right)\\
\phi \in \mathcal{S}^{'}\left(\mathbb{R}^{d-1}\right)
$$

With ##\mathcal{S}^{'}\left(\mathbb{R}^{d-1}\right)## the space of tensor and Group rep valued tempered distributions on a spacelike hypersurface.
 
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  • #84
DrChinese said:
There is an effect called Quantum Nonlocality (also called spooky action at a distance); it is well documented by experiment; and it can be measured by correlations that cannot be explained by actions limited to a light cone.

I would say that the correlations violating the Bell inequalties is "quantum nonlocality"; the question is what "effect" or "mechanism" is going on behind the scenes to produce the correlations, and as you say, nobody knows the answer to that at this point.

DrChinese said:
nowhere is QFT required for this discussion

QFT is not required to model the experimental situations under discussion, no--at least it isn't in the sense that non-relativistic QM makes accurate predictions of the results and using QFT to make the predictions doesn't significantly change them.

However, QFT has a very different ontology from non-relativistic QM. In fact, as my exchange with @Demystifier earlier in the thread shows, it's not entirely clear what that ontology is, since things look very different in the path integral formulation than they do in the canonical formulation. But whatever that ontology is, it isn't quantum states assigned to spatially extended systems. And all of the discussion about foundations that I've seen uses an ontology of quantum states assigned to spatially extended systems. That seems like an obvious issue to me.

Possibly the ontological models framework that @DarMM mentioned addresses this.
 
  • #85
DarMM said:
I am saying it occurs in QFT not as a nonrelativistic approximation.

Don't you have to pick a preferred frame for this to work?
 
  • #87
PeterDonis said:
Don't you have to pick a preferred frame for this to work?
Yes, but it transforms between frames correctly, i.e. it's true in all frames. It's not a non-relativistic approximation.

It can require more renormalizations than the Heisenberg picture though.
 
  • #88
DarMM said:
it transforms between frames correctly

How does the transformation law work? Is it something like the ADM or Hamiltonian formulation of General Relativity?
 
  • #89
PeterDonis said:
How does the transformation law work? Is it something like the ADM or Hamiltonian formulation of General Relativity?
It's not manifestly Lorentz invariant so the transformation is quite complex and doesn't take the form of a simple law.

The book:
K.O. Friedrichs, Mathematical aspects of the quantum theory of fields (Interscience, New York, 1953)

Includes comments on it, as does the work of Luscher and Symanzik beginning with this paper:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/055032138590210X?via=ihub
It's Lorentz invariant due to how distributional subspaces map into each other.
 
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  • #90
DarMM said:
It's not manifestly Lorentz invariant so the transformation is quite complex and doesn't take the form of a simple law.

The book:
K.O. Friedrichs, Mathematical aspects of the quantum theory of fields (Interscience, New York, 1953)

Includes comments on it, as does the work of Luscher and Symanzik beginning with this paper:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/055032138590210X?via%3Dihub
It's Lorentz invariant due to how distributional subspaces map into each other.

Ah, ok; that makes me feel better that at least I wasn't missing something obvious.
 
  • #91
Demystifier said:
I don't think "ontology" is the right word here. In particular, in the path-integral formulation of QFT there are no field operators at all, but ontology should not depend on the formulation.
PeterDonis said:
it's not entirely clear what that ontology is, since things look very different in the path integral formulation than they do in the canonical formulation
Note the path integral is only well-defined in a Riemannian space, not in Lorentzian spacetimes. Since some spacetimes have no analytic continuation to a Riemannian space there is no path integral in general.
 
  • #92
Cthugha said:
1. ... my opinion is that the standard QFT version described in detail by @vanhees71 is not classically local causal. I do not actually see how one gets the impression that he describes it as such.

2. I do not really see your point here. Maybe I am missing something simple. The consensus is that local realism is not a viable option. I fully agree with that. There is no consensus whether non-locality or non-realism/contextuality is more suitable (or both). Essentially, all @vanhees71 does, is to merge the minimal statistical interpretation with QFT and by doing so, QFT of course reproduces what is expected in Bell-type experiments. It just has the standard drawback of the minimal interpretation that some people find it lacking in terms of ontology. In a nutshell it is "shut up and calculate", which obviously does not require collapse or ontological non-locality and of course is fully described by knowing the state preparation procedures. However, QFT is of course silent on how to interpret the math.

1. Per Vanhees71: "Under the assumption of a non-local deterministic theory there's be the violation to the space-time model of special relativity, but that contradicts the empirical facts about its very validity, particularly the universality of the speed of light in vacuum. The only conclusion from this experiment (as from many others) thus can be that non-local deterministic models contradict fundamental physics, which is not the case for local (microcausal) relativistic QFT, which in turn describes the observed results of all Bell tests known today. "

He is flat out saying that a non-local deterministic theory (Bohmian Mechanics being one) is excluded as a viable option. That is certainly far from consensus, even if there is not a relativistic version of Bohmian Mechanics at this time.

He is also saying QFT is local microcausal. I admittedly do not follow the distinction between "local causal" and "local microcausal". However, if I don't follow that distinction, I doubt many others do either unless they are knee deep in QFT. The term "microcausal" does not show up in papers on entanglement, ergo I assume it is not relevant. In fact, I would say as a rule that elements of QFT (as opposed to older QM) are not usually referenced in papers on entanglement.

2. I agree with everything you say here. So apparently the point missed is: whether it is non-locality or non-realism/contextuality that rules, the effect is called Quantum Nonlocality in the literature and it is a generally accepted feature in the quantum world. Attempting to mask this by calling it "nonlocal correlations that result from local microcausality" goes against the grain of almost any publication, either lay or scientific. Just this year, an entire book was written on this so I guess we should call them up and tell them to retitle it "Local Microcausality". So I would say it is very misleading to label it "local microcausality" when the Bell options are to reject locality or to reject realism/contextuality. I can't even get Vanhees71 to acknowledge that QFT is either nonlocal or contextual. So obviously he is trying to have his cake and eat it too.

@Cthugha the rest of this below is not directed at you, but to all.

----------------------------------------------------

How are we supposed to get a useful message across in our many threads if we are not using standard arguments and terminology? We can't be publishing book-long arguments to answer straight-forward questions. The OPs won't be able to interpret them.

If Steven Weinberg published a graduate level book in 2012 on Quantum Mechanics saying the following 2 statements, and I am getting flak for stating these exact words as my position: something is seriously wrong. I don't think it's with me. And this is not Weinberg being sloppy with language either (which a couple of posters here have accused him of being, unfairly and in my opinion insultingly).

"There is a troubling weirdness about quantum mechanics. Perhaps its weirdest feature is entanglement, the need to describe even systems that extend over macroscopic distances in ways that are inconsistent with classical ideas. "

"...according to present ideas a measurement in one subsystem does change the state vector for a distant isolated subsystem ..."

or from Vaidman (2019):

"It is important to understand what the meaning of nonlocality is in quantum theory. Quantum theory does not have the strongest and simplest concept of nonlocality, which is the possibility of making an instantaneous observable local change at a distance. However, all single-world interpretations do have actions at a distance. The quantum nonlocality also has an operational meaning for us, local observers, who can live only in a single world. Given entangled particles placed at a distance, a measurement on one of the particles instantaneously changes the quantum state of the other, from a density matrix to a pure state. It is only in the framework of the many-worlds interpretation, considering all worlds together, where the measurement causes no change in the remote particle, and it remains to be described by a density matrix."

If anyone here is afraid to make these statements because they are not suitably detailed or accurate enough, lord help us.

-DrC
 
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  • #93
PeterDonis said:
DrChinese said:
There is an effect called Quantum Nonlocality (also called spooky action at a distance); it is well documented by experiment; and it can be measured by correlations that cannot be explained by actions limited to a light cone.

I would say that the correlations violating the Bell inequalties is "quantum nonlocality"; the question is what "effect" or "mechanism" is going on behind the scenes to produce the correlations, and as you say, nobody knows the answer to that at this point.DrChinese said:
nowhere is QFT required for this discussion

QFT is not required to model the experimental situations under discussion, no--at least it isn't in the sense that non-relativistic QM makes accurate predictions of the results and using QFT to make the predictions doesn't significantly change them.

So we agree on every essential. Actions are happening that cannot be bounded by a light cone, and we call that Quantum Nonlocality (replacing the now out-dated* phrase "spooky action at a distance"**).

We could call the effect "Quantum Locality", but I hope it is obvious why that would not be a good label. I don't think it's suitable to label it "Local Microcausality" for the same reason. The word LOCAL is completely misleading in both cases, and does not match common usage. So I strenuously object to its usage alongside descriptions of entanglement. Obviously, entangled systems have spatial extent; so that should preclude any description as local.* Although apparently it is not as outdated as I thought: China Shatters “Spooky Action at a Distance” Record, Preps for Quantum Internet (2017)

**Our own @Demystifier published an article saying not only that Einstein used this phrase originally in 1935, he actually had the basic idea for entanglement earlier, in 1930.
 
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  • #94
DrChinese said:
Perhaps its weirdest feature is entanglement, the need to describe even systems that extend over macroscopic distances in ways that are inconsistent with classical ideas. "

No problem with this at all.

DrChinese said:
"...according to present ideas a measurement in one subsystem does change the state vector for a distant isolated subsystem ..."

At least on the evidence of many threads here at PF, I think this is a very unfortunate choice of terminology since, when you actually dig into the details, it doesn't mean what the plain words taken at face value appear to a lay person to mean. The plain words taken at face value appear to mean that you can transmit signals FTL by measuring one of a pair of entangled particles; but you can't. How many threads have we had here where we've had to explain that exact point to newbies? Often many times in the same thread because they simply can't wrap their minds around the fact that a quantum physicist would use such language to describe something that can't be used to send information.

DrChinese said:
this is not Weinberg being sloppy with language either (which a couple of posters here have accused him of being, unfairly and in my opinion insultingly)

Apart from the substantive issues, I do not agree with the claim that it is insulting to point out what seems to be an obvious issue with a particular choice of language, such as the issue I have explained in a bit more detail just above. Even Nobel Prize winning physicists can make mistakes. And given what I have read of Weinberg's writings, I think he would agree that any claim made in a scientific text is fair game for questioning. Science is not done by making or accepting authoritative pronouncements. The issue I am pointing out above is one I would be perfectly happy to point out to Weinberg directly if I were in a classroom or lecture or conference with him.
 
  • #95
DrChinese said:
Actions are happening that cannot be bounded by a light cone, and we call that Quantum Nonlocality
I would say the correlations cannot be explained by local future directed single-valued dynamical processes.
 
  • #96
PeterDonis said:
DrChinese said:
Assuming no retrocausality (an easy assumption when we are debating quantum nonlocality), then either Alice steers Bob - or Bob steers Alice.

I understand that this is your favored interpretation. I do not think it is justified to claim that it is an experimental fact. The experimental fact is correlations that violate the Bell inequalities.

I said ASSUMING no retrocausality. I am not attempting to push an interpretation, but certainly that could be an "out" for bringing back locality.

But my real point is this: There is good reason to use the term "Quantum Nonlocality" - rather than just saying "correlations that violate the Bell inequalities". You have waltzed over a key fact here: the existence of perfect correlations! So these 2 things together are much more stringent:

1. Perfect correlations from entangled pairs.
2. Violation of Bell inequalities from entangled pairs.

If you had only the first, you could assert "local hidden variables" (although you'd need a lot). If you had only the second, you could talk about "nonlocal correlations". But to have both forces us to acknowledge that the connection between 2 entangled particles is something that acts very tightly, in each and every pair. It's not simply a statistical tendency.
 
  • #97
DrChinese said:
How are we supposed to get a useful message across in our many threads if we are not using standard arguments and terminology?

As a point of information, the Mentors are working on guidelines for separating out discussions on QM interpretations and foundations into a separate forum. This would also include guidelines for what the ground rules would be for QM threads outside that separate forum, including things like what the accepted standard terminology would be. I expect that we'll be running those guidelines by the advisors for review and comment before going live.
 
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  • #98
PeterDonis said:
As a point of information, the Mentors are working on guidelines for separating out discussions on QM interpretations and foundations into a separate forum. This would also include guidelines for what the ground rules would be for QM threads outside that separate forum, including things like what the accepted standard terminology would be. I expect that we'll be running those guidelines by the advisors for review and comment before going live.

Ya'll are so good, I should have guessed that would be coming. :smile:
 
  • #99
DrChinese said:
There is good reason to use the term "Quantum Nonlocality" - rather than just saying "correlations that violate the Bell inequalities". You have waltzed over a key fact here: the existence of perfect correlations!

Yes, this is a fair point. "Quantum Nonlocality" certainly is easier to say and type than "correlations that violate the Bell inequalities, plus perfect correlations at certain measurement angles". :wink:
 
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  • #100
DarMM said:
I would say the correlations cannot be explained by local future directed single-valued dynamical processes.

No disagreement, but I hope we don't have to say that every time... :smile:
 
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