Why? is man considered intelligent if .

[Mr.Clue]

Why? is man considered intelligent if ...

This is going to be an unaswerable question, but I've wanted to know if anyone agrees with me.

I don't understand why people still believe in god. It seems to me since man could ask questions that it could not find the answers too they would answer it with god made it that way. But, if you look at all the facts of life you should be able to realize that god does not exist. I think people use god as a way of finding hope and having faith in something to live there lives. If there was a god then the world would not be as it is. There would be order and understanding.

What if i wrote a book and in 3 thousand years somebody find it's, and then there is a new god? It would only exist in there hearts and minds, isn't that what the current bible is?

 

[derekmohammed]

Purhaps this is the wrong forum for this...

 

[Mr.Clue]

ill tie it in for you

In the life of a star holds time and time is the essence of anything and everything that will ever come to exist. Our existence is measured by time. And time is measured by time. If man was intelligent he would figured this out over this much time.

 

[DieCommie]

In my opinion you shouldn’t confuse the idea of god with the christian god.

There are unanswered questions about existence... unanswered question have always been filled in with the idea of "god".

Personally I have never seen any proof that god doesn’t exist. I have however seen enough proof that the christian god doesn’t exist. I seriously doubt that god has sentience as we know it. Personally I think that "god" is some sort of substrate (not sure if that is the right word) that makes up existence. Something that existed before, or outside the bang (neither of these adjectives describes the idea adequately). Obviously there isn’t some old man with a beard in the sky as christians like to believe, but the idea of god as a force man can not know or understand makes sense to me.

 

[chroot]

Admin note: Moved to Metaphysics and Epistemology

- Warren

 

[Doctordick]

I don't understand why people still believe in god.

What you are talking about here (though you are apparently unaware of it) is the dichotomy between "what exists" and "the rules it must obey". Belief that what exists is "God" is a very simple belief system. The rule "he gets whatever he wants" is also a very simple rule system. Clearly, it explains the universe as well as any other explanation. The problem is that it provides very little information as to what to expect. Notice that it generally includes "what has happened in the past will probably happen in the future" (gods very generally do what they like to do :rofl: ), a very powerful predictive statement; at least when it comes to the ignorant masses who concern themselves with little detail.

Have fun -- Dick

 

[Mentat]

This is going to be an unaswerable question, but I've wanted to know if anyone agrees with me.

I don't understand why people still believe in god. It seems to me since man could ask questions that it could not find the answers too they would answer it with god made it that way. But, if you look at all the facts of life you should be able to realize that god does not exist. I think people use god as a way of finding hope and having faith in something to live there lives. If there was a god then the world would not be as it is. There would be order and understanding.

What if i wrote a book and in 3 thousand years somebody find it's, and then there is a new god? It would only exist in there hearts and minds, isn't that what the current bible is?

So the concept that what is in the Bible is true (in some sense or other) isn't even to be considered?

 

[Philocrat]

In the life of a star holds time and time is the essence of anything and everything that will ever come to exist. Our existence is measured by time. And time is measured by time. If man was intelligent he would figured this out over this much time.

Some people may argue that WE ARE IN TIME AND IN THE PROCESS OF GETTING TO KNOW ALL THERE IS TO BE KNOWN ABOUT EVERYTHING, and that since this is the case, GIVEN TIME, there is NOTHING which logically rules out the fact that WE MAY FINALLY KNOW ALL THERE IS TO BE KNOWN ABOUT EXISTENCE. Would you agree or insist that there is more to existence than that?

 

[loseyourname]

So the concept that what is in the Bible is true (in some sense or other) isn't even to be considered?

The bible seems to be somewhat arbitrarily chosen, no? There are plenty of other religious texts out there that give conflicting accounts. How do you choose one over the other? When people make naturalistic claims, there are methods by which we can evaluate these claims to determine some likelihood that they are good claims that we should accept. When a text like the bible comes along making claims about the divinity of certain men, along with numerous miracles, resurrections, and a prediction regarding how the end of days will come for our planet - rather improbable claims prima facie - and provides no way for us to evaluate these claims, what do we do?

 

[saltydog]

This is going to be an unaswerable question, but I've wanted to know if anyone agrees with me.

I don't understand why people still believe in god.

Hum, I addressed that issue in the "Why God Exists" post in general philosophy: I think it contributes to our survival (in general, over the long term, and in regards to the species as a whole) as a "buttress" to our fragile nature. You know, I was a little unsure as to if I should just come out with it and say, "it's just not there", but I did and so, we'll see what happens . . .

 

[Barbie]

I have heard a lot of Christians talk about how much they value the fact that "God is always there" and the like. It is a comfort.

For example: When one has lost a loved one, one would rather believe that the loved one is in Heaven rather than just gone. Yes, its possible to believe in "a god" without there being a Heaven, but I have yet to encounter a religion where the dead simply stop existing...

Also it serves as an answer for many questions such as: Why are we here? Where did we come from? blah blah People would rather have this given answer than to go through the painful prosses of thinking on their own and considering possibilities. Plus, let's not forget that these (and others) are questions that we cannot answer with the knowledge that we have now. We have tried and tried and tried and failed. It is much easier to accept a vague explanation like one given by "a god" than to accept the not knowing.

Also, religion has been used by "smart" men throughout human history to control society. Brainwash the suckers and be the king! The masses will happily follow the leader when told it is "God's will" or they will "go to Heaven" etc... How else does one get a human being to commit suicide while wearing a bomb on a train if not with the promise of several virgins on the other side?? *rolls eyes* Its a very affective tool, why let it go to waste?

I suppose one can give even more reasons. I agree with you. No person with the ability to think for themselves living in a time with so much scientific progress has an excuse (other than simply giving in out of weakness) to believe in any God. Of course life was easier when one has someone to go to in any moment, has a protector/savior, has someone who gives all the answers, etc.

No offense to those who do of course. A belief is a belief.

 

[olde drunk]

it all depends on your definition of god. i am reasonably confident that the god of traditional religions does not exist.

but, a universal consciousness makes sense. the only way that a 'god consciousness' could be all just, all loving, all powerful etc etc is if we embrace freewill and accept that we are our own god. the universal consciousness gains (expands it's awareness) through whatever we do.

if we are eternal and have freewill we also create new worlds with our thoughts. we are gods (within our experience) and join with others to create a consciousness gestalt. that would be my working definition of god.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Doctordick]

it all depends on your definition of god.

You got that right. People talk about "God" all the time without ever taking the trouble to define what they mean. I personally have a definition which seems to fit the usage of the word pretty well. (At least it seems that way to me. :rofl: )

Explaining anything requires a starting place: i.e., accepting something as known and understood. Explaining how you happen to know or understand that is a dilemma; if you do find an explanation, that new explanation requires a starting place so you cannot argue away the fundamental existence of a dilemma. It follows that no matter what you know or understand, some Great Original Dilemma stands behind it all. And thus GOD becomes an acronym for that underlying dilemma and is quite well defined.

It is a beautiful solution to the whole problem and often adds a little humor to religious interactions. If someone asks me if I believe in God, I can very honestly answer "yes", quite confident that the dilemma exists. Anytime someone says, "God only knows" it is quite clear that what he means is that he doesn't know and the dilemma lies behind his problem. And it sure is obvious that you cannot explain anything without accepting the underlying dilemma as fact.

if we are eternal and have freewill we also create new worlds with our thoughts. we are gods (within our experience) and join with others to create a consciousness gestalt. that would be my working definition of god.

Yeah, and it agrees with my definition exactly! That is exactly the starting place of your explanations. Your GOD

Have fun -- Dick

 

[olde drunk]

Doctordick, thank you for your addition. Might I add that most people want an externalized god, much like having parents. there's always someone to fall back on. being olde, and now an orphan, it is easier to see.

who the hell wants all the responsibility of being 100% responsible for their daily experience?

i do not wish to scare anyone but that's the best conclusion i can make. when you accept that concept, it will be liberating. whatever problems you have are self induced, ergo i can create the solution.

love&peace,
olde drunk

'heaven was invented by your clergy so they could charge admission'

 

[Barbie]

Doctordick, thank you for your addition. Might I add that most people want an externalized god, much like having parents. there's always someone to fall back on. being olde, and now an orphan, it is easier to see.

who the hell wants all the responsibility of being 100% responsible for their daily experience?

i do not wish to scare anyone but that's the best conclusion i can make. when you accept that concept, it will be liberating. whatever problems you have are self induced, ergo i can create the solution.

love&peace,
olde drunk

'heaven was invented by your clergy so they could charge admission'

Very true, its easier to live with a concept of an external power such as "God".

Plus, we still don't know/cant explain many things about the universe. "God forbid" we accept not having an explanation for something.

Great Original Dilemma

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

If a hen and a half can lay an egg and a half in a day and a half, how many days will it take a monkey with a wooden leg to kick the seeds out of a dill pickle?

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

It's really been buggin' me...


Personally, I find God in the delight of humility. I feel powerless because I have no idea how to answer the above question with certainty.

 

[RelativeGravity]

Food for Thought

We live in a cause and effect world, right? Everything must have a cause. You may say that the big bang was what caused the universe, but what or who caused the big bang? In order for our laws of the universe to still make since, there must be someone OUTSIDE our laws. Therefore...God. I mean, unless you want to imagine some sort of omnipotent space dust, but all-powerful space dust existing outside our rules doesn't have a mind to know how to create something as intricate and perfectly balanced as the world.

 

[selfAdjoint]

We live in a cause and effect world, right? Everything must have a cause. You may say that the big bang was what caused the universe, but what or who caused the big bang? In order for our laws of the universe to still make since, there must be someone OUTSIDE our laws. Therefore...God. I mean, unless you want to imagine some sort of omnipotent space dust, but all-powerful space dust existing outside our rules doesn't have a mind to know how to create something as intricate and perfectly balanced as the world.

This extermely naive philosophy. There is no time before the big bang and cause seems to depend on time, therefore no cause can really be defined before the big bang. That's conventional, but note that various scientists have proposed non-divine extensions beyond the big bang. Bojowald's quantum gravity cosmology has a mirror image reverse-time world on the other side of the BB and Smolin's evolutionary scenario posits a potentially infinite chain of reproducing, evolving universes.

Not to mention the problems with "cause and effect universe" that are being discussed on other threads.

 

[Rader]

This is going to be an unaswerable question, but I've wanted to know if anyone agrees with me.
I don't understand why people still believe in god.

Well some do!, because they know that they know something that they think they know, that they do not know.

It seems to me since man could ask questions that it could not find the answers too they would answer it with god made it that way.

You rather have a dilemma there, since you can not falsify there answer.

But, if you look at all the facts of life you should be able to realize that god does not exist.

I am rather interested, what might some of those facts be?

I think people use god as a way of finding hope and having faith in something to live there lives.

I consider that a true statement only if you slide in a some before people.

If there was a god then the world would not be as it is. There would be order and understanding.

What type of order and understanding do you refer to?

What if i wrote a book and in 3 thousand years somebody find it's, and then there is a new god? It would only exist in there hearts and minds, isn't that what the current bible is?

No, not if there is any authenticity to the code that the mathematician Eliyahu Rips found encrypted in the bible. If you were good at writing maybe you might be considered under some best sellers like Moby Dick or Robin Hood or El Cid Campeador.

 

[RelativeGravity]

Alright, let's consider your non-divine extensions for a minute. First, just for the record, both Bojowald and Smolin are speculating; they have no proof. Second, their fancies seem all fine and dandy as well as extreme and rather improbable. I'd like to refer to the Strong Anthropic Principle at this time, and point out that the fine balance our universe is in seems to indicate that their is a Creator. It implies that our ability to ponder cosmology at all relies on all parameters having numerical values falling in a quite narrow range. For instance, consider the intricate design of the human body. If one molecule was in the wrong place, we wouldn't exist. Our brains are so finely tuned and are in such a delicate balance, that it is stunning that we can talk, think, walk, that all our brain firings and synapses go to the right place, etc. This ability to communicate and to rationalize...where did it come from? Everything just randomly came together...logic came out of chaos? Why fight so adamantly against the notion of an intelligent divinity? It makes more sense than a mirror image reverse-time world that just so happened to fall in place. Intelligent Design versus chaos.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Alright, let's consider your non-divine extensions for a minute. First, just for the record, both Bojowald and Smolin are speculating; they have no proof. Second, their fancies seem all fine and dandy as well as extreme and rather improbable. I'd like to refer to the Strong Anthropic Principle at this time, and point out that the fine balance our universe is in seems to indicate that their is a Creator. It implies that our ability to ponder cosmology at all relies on all parameters having numerical values falling in a quite narrow range. For instance, consider the intricate design of the human body. If one molecule was in the wrong place, we wouldn't exist. Our brains are so finely tuned and are in such a delicate balance, that it is stunning that we can talk, think, walk, that all our brain firings and synapses go to the right place, etc. This ability to communicate and to rationalize...where did it come from? Everything just randomly came together...logic came out of chaos? Why fight so adamantly against the notion of an intelligent divinity? It makes more sense than a mirror image reverse-time world that just so happened to fall in place. Intelligent Design versus chaos.

But string theory says there are some $$10^500$$ distinct possible universes with different parameters, and we just happen to live in the one that it is possible for us to live in . Smolin's evolutionary theory is as he claims TESTABLE, not just speculation, and it also accounts for the fine tuning.

 

[RelativeGravity]

That just seems highly improbable to me. You'd think that just the fact that we can contemplate the existence of an Intelligent Creator proves His existence. Our ability to ponder and wonder rising out of chaos doesn't satisfy me. *shrugs*

 

[selfAdjoint]

You'd think that just the fact that we can contemplate the existence of an Intelligent Creator proves His existence

This is basically Anselm's ontological proof of God. You'd think that during the millenium or so that it's been out there in the talkosphere there would have been some resolution of it, but it remains as controversial as ever. There just seem to be some thinkers who find it convincing and others who don't. And not all the nonbelievers in Anselm are atheists by any means!

 

[RelativeGravity]

Well, actually Anselm's proof is that if God is the being of which no one is greater, and if it is better to exist than be imagined, than God must exist. I don't find it necessarily convincing either, but to each his own. I wasn't trying to refer to Anselm but rather to say that the ability to think logically doesn't seem to arise from chaos. Logic comes from logic...not disorder. So there must be an intelligent deity who gave us the ability to contemplate and think rationally.

 

[daveb]

Treat god just like mathematics...first you need definitions and axioms. THEN you can prove either a god exists/doesn't exist. Until then, it;s all just speculation.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Treat god just like mathematics...first you need definitions and axioms. THEN you can prove either a god exists/doesn't exist. Until then, it;s all just speculation.

You could derive some proposition p="God exists" validly from your axioms whatever they might be, but that wouldn't prove p is true in the world.

 

[Gokul43201]

You could derive some proposition p="God exists" validly from your axioms whatever they might be

Can you ? I have never seen one that works. I strongly believe that you can not derive a property such as omnipotence from any consistent set of axioms.

 

[George Jones]

This is basically Anselm's ontological proof of God.

One of the greatest (if not the greatest) logician of all time came up with his own version of an ontological proof, but Godel was also a very strange bird.

Regards,
George

 

[RelativeGravity]

I strongly believe that you can not derive a property such as omnipotence from any consistent set of axioms.

I'm with you on that. Because God is so great, we shouldn't be able to reduce Him to a simple equation.

 

[Exitsign]

I think people use god as a way of finding hope and having faith in something to live there lives.

I think you should stop being a downer and let the people think what they want to think. Because the way you say it, we're all going to stop existing after we die. So why havn't you killed yourself yet. If there's no point in your existence.
With that I just want to say . . .
I think people like YOU use this anti-God speech to gain some positive emotion to ease the pain of your suicidal theory.

 

[Pythagorean]

I don't understand why people still believe in god. It seems to me since man could ask questions that it could not find the answers too they would answer it with god made it that way.

some people aren't necissarily concerned with physical truth, and are more interested in the intangible, spiritual truth. It's not physically provable or disprovable. No reason to disrespect someone pursuing a different path of knowledge.

Honestly, most practical religious folks don't try and tie their religion into physical reality. Their realm is morality and society. When we try to intepret character and meaning physically, or they try to intepret the physical world people get offended. As far as I'm concerned, it comes from people stepping out of their fields on both sides.

Logical minded people don't quibble over silly pseudoarguments, whether they're religious, scientific, or both.