Why is radiance defined per projected area normal to the beam direction?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the definition of radiance in the context of light measurement, specifically why it is defined per projected area normal to the beam direction. Participants explore the implications of this definition and its significance in accurately describing light properties.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant explains the mathematical definition of radiance and expresses confusion about the necessity of projecting the surface area normal to the beam direction.
  • Another participant argues that without the projection, the definition of radiance would depend on the orientation of the area relative to the flux, making the value meaningless.
  • A participant seeks clarification through an example involving a Lambertian radiator, questioning whether the radiance would remain constant across different directions if the area is not projected.
  • Another participant emphasizes that radiance should be a property of the light itself, not influenced by the orientation of the surface area.
  • A further inquiry is made about the rationale for not using a differential area normal to the beam from the outset, suggesting that radiance is often associated with the brightness of an object, which relates to light interaction with surfaces.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the definition of radiance, with some supporting the necessity of the projection and others questioning its significance. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to defining radiance.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in understanding radiance, including the dependence on surface orientation and the implications for measuring light properties. However, these aspects remain unresolved within the discussion.

brightlint
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Radiance is defined as radiant flux per solid angle per projected area normal to the beam direction: ##L = \frac{d^2 \Phi}{d \vec\omega \cdot d A_\perp}## where ##A_\perp = A \cos \theta## and ##\theta## is the angle between the beam direction ##\vec\omega## and the surface normal. I kind of understand that radiance is simply the infinitesimal flux ##d\Phi## contained in the infinitesimal cone/ray which is described by the infinitesimal solid angle and the surface segment ##d A##. However I don't understand why it's necessary to project the surface segment normal to the beam. Why would ##L = \frac{d^2 \Phi}{d \vec\omega \cdot d A}## be a bad definition of radiance?
 
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Then L would depend on the definition of your area and its orientation relative to the flux. The number alone would become meaningless.
 
mfb said:
Then L would depend on the definition of your area and its orientation relative to the flux. The number alone would become meaningless.

I'm still having trouble to see why that would be a problem. I would be glad if you or someone else could illustrate it with an example like this:

Suppose there is a surface segment ##d A## inside a sphere and the sphere emits light on the inside like a Lambertian radiator. If I measure the incident radiance at the surface segment ##d A## coming from a certain direction ##d \vec\omega## without the projection of ##dA## normal to the beam, then the measured value would be small for directions near the horizon because of the Tilting principle. However, if I project the surface segment normal to the beam, then the radiance would be constant across the whole hemisphere.

Is this correct so far? Why would it be meaningless if the radiance would change depending on the direction?
 
brightlint said:
Why would it be meaningless if the radiance would change depending on the direction?
Radiance is supposed to be a property of the light, not a property of the interaction of light with some (not necessarily real!) surface with some specific orientation.
 
Why don’t we use a differential area normal to the beam in the first place, instead of projecting a non-normal one?

Besides that, radiance is often described as an measure for how bright an object appears, wouldn't that be a property of the interaction of light with a surface?
 

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