Why is thermal energy treated differently than other kinds of energy?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter nataliaeggers
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Thermodymanics
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the treatment of thermal energy in comparison to other forms of energy, exploring the implications of energy conservation, the nature of thermal interactions, and the distinctions between mechanical and thermal phenomena. Participants examine theoretical and conceptual aspects, as well as practical applications in physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why thermal energy is treated differently from other forms of energy, suggesting a perceived inconsistency in its application to work and kinetic energy transformations.
  • Another participant challenges the relevance of Newton's third law to the discussion of energy, asking for clarification on the relationship between thermal energy and other forms of energy.
  • It is proposed that thermal energy can be viewed as disordered kinetic energy, prompting a request for specifics on what cannot be explained by thermal energy compared to other forms.
  • A participant provides an example of using thermal energy to explain kinetic energy changes in a book sliding across a table, asserting that thermal energy is treated similarly to other energy forms in conservation equations.
  • Discussion includes the historical context of the First Law of Thermodynamics, emphasizing the unification of mechanical and thermal interactions under the conservation of energy principle.
  • Some participants note that the Work-Kinetic Energy theorem applies specifically to mechanical interactions, highlighting the need to account for thermal energy in energy conservation discussions.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the definitions of mechanical energy, potential energy, and their interrelations within different systems.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the treatment of thermal energy compared to other energy forms, with no consensus reached on whether thermal energy is fundamentally different or simply another form of energy. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these differences.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the complexity of energy transformations and the necessity of considering both mechanical and thermal interactions for a complete understanding of energy conservation. There are unresolved questions about the definitions and implications of thermal versus mechanical energy.

  • #31
Demystifier said:
In principle, we could completely ignore statistical mechanics and thermal energy, and explain everything as you would like, in terms of causal directional forces. In fact, that would be more correct to do. But to do that, we would need to keep track of every atom, and for systems with a huge number of atoms (typically ##10^{23}##) we cannot do that in practice. So it is for purely practical reasons that we abandon this more correct approach based on causal directional forces, and approximate it with the statistical approach. The price payed by using the statistical approximation is precisely the loss of the causal description you are talking about. So to make the long story short, it's not that thermal phenomena are fundamentally different from all other physical phenomena. Instead, it's that the thermal description is just an approximation, used for the sake of simplification of the system that otherwise is very complicated. It's a clever trick, that reduces a system with a huge number of degrees of freedom to a simplified theory dealing with only a few degrees of freedom.
All good points. But I might take a bit of an issue with the suggestion that the statistical methods are just an approximation.

Since thermodynamics was developed before atomic theory and was considered to be a separate field of physical science, the OP is correct in their observation that thermodynamics and Newtonian mechanics were distinct. Statistical mechanics and atomic theory made that distinction disappear by explaining thermodynamic states and processes in terms of the underlying mechanical interactions of particles.

As you point out, statistical mechanics assumes large systems of particles (in the order of Avogadro's number of particles). And since it applies only to such systems in thermodynamic equilibrium and to thermodynamic processes between states of thermodynamic equilibrium for these systems its application is limited. But statistical mechanics is very accurate in these applications.

Where classical statistical methods break down is where temperatures are very low and quantum effects predominate. That is where classical statistical mechanics don't work and have to be replaced by quantum statistical mechanics. And when that occurs, quantum statistical mechanics is very accurate (again for systems of large numbers of particles).

So it seems to me that statistical methods are only an approximation of underlying behaviour of large numbers of particles if the accuracy required is beyond than anything physically measureable.

AM
 
  • Agree
Likes   Reactions: Demystifier

Similar threads

  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
548
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
4K