Why would a black hole be a gateway to another universe?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of black holes as potential gateways to other universes, particularly in relation to ideas presented by Michio Kaku in his book. Participants explore theoretical implications, speculative ideas, and the distinction between scientific accuracy and popular science communication.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question Kaku's assertion that entering a black hole leads to another universe, suggesting that nothing special occurs upon crossing the event horizon, and one remains in the same universe.
  • Others propose that Kaku may be referencing the concept of white holes, which are theoretical constructs in general relativity that could relate to black holes but are not established as physically real.
  • There is a suggestion that Kaku's reasoning implies that the breakdown of physical laws within a black hole could indicate a transition to a different universe, although this remains speculative.
  • Some participants criticize Kaku's approach as prioritizing entertainment over scientific rigor, comparing him to other popular science communicators like Brian Greene.
  • Conversely, a few argue that Kaku's statements are theoretically valid within certain frameworks of general relativity, specifically regarding the Kerr black hole solutions.
  • Concerns are raised about the distinction between mathematical possibilities and physical realities, with some participants emphasizing that Kaku does not adequately address the limitations of these theories.
  • There is a discussion about the potential misrepresentation of scientific concepts to lay audiences, with some participants advocating for clearer communication of theoretical versus practical implications.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with no consensus on Kaku's claims. Some support the theoretical basis for his ideas, while others challenge the validity and presentation of those ideas, indicating a significant disagreement on the interpretation and implications of black holes and white holes.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of distinguishing between theoretical possibilities and physical plausibility, highlighting that small perturbations in black hole geometries could invalidate certain theoretical constructs. There is also mention of the need for clarity in communicating complex scientific ideas to non-expert audiences.

acesuv
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I'm reading Einstein's Cosmos by Michio Kaku, and he describes Kerr black holes; which are apparently rings of matter stabilized by centrifugal force. Anyway, Kaku throws out that if you go through the event horizon of a black hole, you will be transported to another universe; he says this as if its common sense and just continues on.

WHERE DOES HE GET THIS FROM? How the heck would he know that?
 
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If you go through the event horizon, nothing special happens - you cannot go back, of course, but you are still in this universe.
There are some speculations that the interior of black holes (the "center") could be related to something special - not necessarily a "different universe", but at least something we don't know yet. But those are just speculations.
 
Kaku is perhaps drawing on the idea of a white hole:

[of course no one knows if there are other universes]
A white hole, in general relativity, is a hypothetical region of spacetime which cannot be entered from the outside, but from which matter and light have the ability to escape. In this sense, it is the reverse of a black hole, which can be entered from the outside, but from which nothing, including light, has the ability to escape. White holes appear in the theory of eternal black holes. In addition to a black hole region in the future, such a solution of the Einstein field equations has a white hole region in its past.[1] However, this region does not exist for black holes that have formed through gravitational collapse, nor are there any known physical processes through which a white hole could be formed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hole
 
Naty1 said:
Kaku is perhaps drawing on the idea of a white hole:

[of course no one knows if there are other universes]




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hole

mfb said:
If you go through the event horizon, nothing special happens - you cannot go back, of course, but you are still in this universe.
There are some speculations that the interior of black holes (the "center") could be related to something special - not necessarily a "different universe", but at least something we don't know yet. But those are just speculations.

He sure didn't make it seem like a speculation... Thanks
 
acesuv said:
He sure didn't make it seem like a speculation

That's Kaku for you; he's going for entertainment value, not scientific accuracy. Brian Greene's books and TV specials are similar.
 
acesuv said:
He sure didn't make it seem like a speculation... Thanks

Kaku used to be a physicist. He is now a gadfly-popularizer who mostly just says dumb crap on television. Do NOT take him seriously.
 
I think the somewhat questionable line of reasoning goes something like this

black hole --> "laws of physics break down" --> this can't happen in our universe ---> therefore it's not our universe --> therefore it must be some other universe.

Kaku's style is interesting. He uses phrases like "it could be.." and "it might be..." a lot, but he spends so much time in Couldbeland and MightbeLand that he starts to make it seem like something other than speculation.
 
What Kaku is saying is perfectly valid theoretically. The extended charged Kerr space-time is not like the extended Schwarzschild space-time. In the Kerr case one can pass through the inner horizon and pass through the ring singularity so as to enter the white hole region and end up in a new asymptotically flat region. Let's not berate scientists prematurely.
 
WannabeNewton said:
In the Kerr case one can pass through the inner horizon and pass through the ring singularity so as to enter the white hole region and end up in a new asymptotically flat region. Let's not berate scientists prematurely.

I don't think such an observer would have to pass through the ring singularity; see the Penrose diagram at the bottom of this page:

http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/penrose.html

See the blue line on the diagram.

Also, the fact that all this is mathematically possible is a long way from saying it's physically possible. AFAIK any small perturbations to the Kerr geometry will destroy the inner horizon and what's behind it, and any real black hole will have small perturbations. The fact that Kaku never mentions any of these caveats is one reason why I say he's going for entertainment value, not scientific accuracy. It's like all the talk about warp drives without ever mentioning that they need exotic matter that violates energy conditions.
 
  • #10
I should have said that the infalling observer can either pass through the ring singularity so as to enter a new asymptotically flat region or directly enter the white hole region and enter a new asymptotically flat region; apologies on my part for phrasing that incorrectly. Regardless, what he is saying is not technically incorrect so to insult him and claim that he is saying "dumb crap" is quite absurd. If that's true then Hawking & Ellis and Wald etc. are all saying "dumb crap" for mentioning these theoretical possibilities.
 
  • #11
WannabeNewton said:
what he is saying is not technically incorrect so to insult him and claim that he is saying "dumb crap" is quite absurd. If that's true then Hawking & Ellis and Wald etc. are all saying "dumb crap" for mentioning these theoretical possibilities.

I didn't use the phrase "dumb crap", but I do think Kaku is doing science a disservice.

Hawking & Ellis, and Wald, are written for scientists who are supposed to be able to understand the difference between what is theoretically, mathematically possible and what is physically possible, physically reasonable, etc.

Kaku's audience is lay people who do not have that background, and so the effect of what he says is to make people think that things which are mathematically possible but not at all physically reasonable, are actually physically reasonable. That misrepresents the science, which IMO is never a good idea, no matter how many books it sells or how many TV viewers it attracts.
 
  • #12
WannabeNewton said:
I should have said that the infalling observer can either pass through the ring singularity so as to enter a new asymptotically flat region or directly enter the white hole region and enter a new asymptotically flat region; apologies on my part for phrasing that incorrectly. Regardless, what he is saying is not technically incorrect so to insult him and claim that he is saying "dumb crap" is quite absurd. If that's true then Hawking & Ellis and Wald etc. are all saying "dumb crap" for mentioning these theoretical possibilities.

For me, the question isn't whether it's "not technically incorrect" (and phrasing it that way is not exactly a ringing endorsement :smile:) but rather whether it's presented in a way that advances the understanding of the intended audience. From that point of view, Hawking is not beyond reproach, but Kaku and Greene are irredeemably bad.
 
  • #13
PeterDonis said:
I don't think such an observer would have to pass through the ring singularity; see the Penrose diagram at the bottom of this page:

http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/penrose.html

See the blue line on the diagram.

Also, the fact that all this is mathematically possible is a long way from saying it's physically possible. AFAIK any small perturbations to the Kerr geometry will destroy the inner horizon and what's behind it, and any real black hole will have small perturbations. The fact that Kaku never mentions any of these caveats is one reason why I say he's going for entertainment value, not scientific accuracy. It's like all the talk about warp drives without ever mentioning that they need exotic matter that violates energy conditions.
Actually, he did mention that it might not be physically possible.
 
  • #14
PeterDonis said:
I didn't use the phrase "dumb crap", but I do think Kaku is doing science a disservice.
Oh I wasn't talking about your comment. Another poster used that phrase.
 
  • #15
acesuv: If you want to read more about 'time travel'...gateways...Check Wikipedia under WORMHOLE...it should describe why it is not deemed physically realistic.

There is also nice illustration. And its good to recall Einstein did not believe black holes were 'realistic' either..."just math"...
 
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  • #16
If a black hole was not in this universe then why would it have mass in this one?
 
  • #17
If a black hole was not in this universe then why would it have mass in this one?

Nobody said that here...so far, there is no evidence of anything 'outside' this universe because the universe is defined as 'everything'.

Multiverses, parallel universes, bubble universes, parallel worlds,many worlds, etc have been hypothesized, but so far the Lambda CDM cosmological model for one universe seems the best bet.
 
  • #18
acesuv:
FYI...I have several of Kaku's books and enjoyed the easy introductory style. As already posted, he can possibly lead you astray; on the positive, side, he does discuss some interesting possibilities I know I might not have considered. So by all means finish your book!

Two more technically accurate books than Kaku's I read, without math, which would be good next steps for reading, would be Leonard Susskind's THE BLACK HOLE WAR [his decades long arguments with Stephen Hawking] valuable for his unique perspectives, and Kip Thorne's BLACK HOLES AND TIME WARPS for a more detailed discussion/interpretation of where the mathematics leads.
 
  • #19
Naty1 said:
Nobody said that here...so far, there is no evidence of anything 'outside' this universe because the universe is defined as 'everything'.

Multiverses, parallel universes, bubble universes, parallel worlds,many worlds, etc have been hypothesized, but so far the Lambda CDM cosmological model for one universe seems the best bet.

I can accept that.
 

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