News WikiLeaks reveals sites critical to US security

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WikiLeaks has released a sensitive diplomatic cable detailing locations worldwide deemed critical to U.S. national security, including undersea communication lines and suppliers of essential goods. The Pentagon labeled the disclosure as "damaging," arguing it provides valuable information to adversaries. Discussions revolve around the implications of such leaks, with some suggesting they expose vulnerabilities in U.S. military power and provoke a reevaluation of foreign relations. Critics argue that WikiLeaks' actions are irresponsible and could lead to more aggressive behavior from the organization. The debate highlights concerns about the balance between transparency and national security, questioning the motivations behind such disclosures.
  • #151
It's a new, digital world, where privacy is forfeit. Kinda sucks in my opinion but a witch hunter's paradise. There are plenty of folks, bored of themselves, unconcerned whether they will find food tomorrow, or simply bored with their lives, with nothing better to entertain them than seeking witches with pitch forks, flaming torches, and sadistic glee in their eyes.

There is a biblical quote worth remembering about casting stones in this new world.
 
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  • #152
This reminds me of the Australian government who threw a Dutch crime reporter and his college in jail. They were trying to speak to an international fugitive: a murder-suspect on the list of interpol for extradition. The police took the person (wanted by interpol) in protection. Apparently Australia doesn't extradite murder suspects to Honduras and an attempt to contact such an individual for an interview will land you in jail.

Outside court, de Vries told reporters he found it strange he was put in a cell when he had tracked down a murder suspect in Australia and just wanted to ask him some questions and hand him a letter.

"It's very strange, I thought I was in Australia, a free country with free press, but it looks like I'm in China or Korea.

"I'm very surprised the police decided this."

He said he explained to police what happened.

"I didn't touch him, I didn't insult him, I didn't threaten him," he said.

"This is a homicide case and I tracked him down and now you're putting me in jail. That's the world upside down."

De Vries said he was stripped for his overnight detention.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/dutch-crime-reporter-slams-wa-police/story-e6frg6pf-1225908190397
 
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  • #153
Evo said:
It doesn't matter that he might not have broken any Australian laws, do you think agents that steal or receive classified documents are tried based on the laws of their home country or the country they have commited the crime against?

Some reading.

http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=53001

It does matter. It's not like anyone should submit himself to the might of US laws, regardless of his presence on US soil or not, and his citizenship status. If US wants him, they should follow extradition procedures and see if Sweden will be willing to hand them this man or not.
 
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  • #154
To respond the opening post. My (limited?) understanding concludes that what Wikileaks is doing is wrong and should be stopped. I recall reading somewhere that Wikileaks stated they would not release anything that would risk lives (this seems to be the opposite of what the opening post is saying though?). This implies selectivity of what to release and this implies an agenda. A principled stand (which is what I believed they had) would either release it all, or not bother at all, anything else IMHO is wrong.

As for what constitutes national security, if you trust your government, surely you would want them to take no chances. I see no problem with the list quoted in this context. We certainly do not know everything that is going on, so any comment is valid only to a point, and an element of trust is always there. If you don't trust your government, then you may be inclined to feel that Wikileaks is doing a good job.

Al-Quaeda is not the only threat.

Cutting a cable or any sort of vandalism costs resources to repair and has consequences. It will always benefit hostile organisations who are playing a long game (Al-Quaeda, or whoever).

Evo, rootX, good to see a place of employment where data is treated as such. I deal mainly with personal information, but from since I started working, when information was completely respected, we seem to be now well down the path to it being public/commercial property. Only in recent years are we starting to get back to protecting data.

There is no way any respectable government could have any communication with Assange and legitimize him, the USG has already made the mistake security wise, no point making another.
 
  • #155
DanP said:
It does matter. It's not like anyone should submit himself to the might of US laws, regardless of his presence on US soil or not, and his citizenship status. If US wants him, they should follow extradition procedures and see if Sweden will be willing to hand them this man or not.

If we have a mutual treaty with a country that allows for us to rapidly get our hands on this individual, or even a diplomatic understanding, that's enough for me. Sweden is just one country he's alleged to have committed crimes... and since he's with the British right now you can bet that the reason he's going to the Swedes first is mutual agreement.

This isn't as one sided or high-handed as it seems... if something similar occurred to the British or Aussies, we'd hand them the person they wanted as well. This isn't an issue of a country's law (except in cases where many countries won't extradite to us for a death penalty case), but rather international treaties, and diplomatic agreements of the moment.
 
  • #156
nismaratwork said:
If we have a mutual treaty with a country that allows for us to rapidly get our hands on this individual, or even a diplomatic understanding, that's enough for me. Sweden is just one country he's alleged to have committed crimes... and since he's with the British right now you can bet that the reason he's going to the Swedes first is mutual agreement.

The problem is that all this is empty talk. First of all we need to know in details the legislation governing the extradition process in Sweden.

Diplomatic understandings have to defer to the laws of the land, i.e a man only can be extradited in legal conditions. As far as I know, but I might be mistaken, laws in Sweden only allow extradition for a criminal offense which is punishable by the laws of both states involved. Also I believe one can reach Supreme Court of Sweden if it opposes extradition. So no diplomatic understanding will allow you to get your hands rapidly on the individual.

The Nordic states in EU are the world foremost democracies. I believe the person will have a wide legal base to fight the extradition process.

The individual in question is Australian though, so in fact we have to know details of extradition Australian laws too.
 
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  • #157
Quote - "This isn't as one sided or high-handed as it seems... if something similar occurred to the British or Aussies, we'd hand them the person they wanted as well. This isn't an issue of a country's law (except in cases where many countries won't extradite to us for a death penalty case), but rather international treaties, and diplomatic agreements of the moment."

This isn't as clear cut as some would like:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11226673
 
  • #158
cobalt124 said:
Quote - "This isn't as one sided or high-handed as it seems... if something similar occurred to the British or Aussies, we'd hand them the person they wanted as well. This isn't an issue of a country's law (except in cases where many countries won't extradite to us for a death penalty case), but rather international treaties, and diplomatic agreements of the moment."

This isn't as clear cut as some would like:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11226673

That only has relevance when and if those laws are changed... a process I gather would take quite some time since we'd be talking about drafting a new treaty.



DanP said:
The problem is that all this is empty talk. First of all we need to know in details the legislation governing the extradition process in Sweden.

Diplomatic understandings have to defer to the laws of the land, i.e a man only can be extradited in legal conditions. As far as I know, but I might be mistaken, laws in Sweden only allow extradition for a criminal offense which is punishable by the laws of both states involved. Also I believe one can reach Supreme Court of Sweden if it opposes extradition. So no diplomatic understanding will allow you to get your hands rapidly on the individual.

The Nordic states in EU are the world foremost democracies. I believe the person will have a wide legal base to fight the extradition process.

The individual in question is Australian though, so in fact we have to know details of extradition Australian laws too.

If you think that Assange is going to find refuge under the usual diplomatic protections, it will only be so as long as all aggrieved parties want it to be. As for Australian laws, they don't matter in the least, and since this isn't a death penalty case there would be little resistance. In fact, the USA seems to be happy to allow Swedish authorities to extradite to their "formeost democracy", where Assange can face charges of "Sex By Surprise" http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/sex-by-surprise-at-heart-of-assange-criminal-probe/19741444 .

If for some reason the Swedes don't want him I'm fairly sure that you'll find he makes his way to the US, or to a country which is less democratic... then the USA.

It may be that right now the US is being blamed for the wikileaks event in the international community, but if you think any government wants Assange near them, you're barking mad. There will be posturing, but in the end he's proven willing to use measures that would make any government wary.
 
  • #159
nismaratwork said:
If you think that Assange is going to find refuge under the usual diplomatic protections ...
.
Its not diplomatic protection, it's extradition laws which are pretty specific to each country.

Diplomatic protections only apply to very specific personal, and are ANYTHING but usual.
 
  • #160
DanP said:
Its not diplomatic protection, it's extradition laws which are pretty specific to each country.

Diplomatic protections only apply to very specific personal, and are ANYTHING but usual.

No, not protections by virtue of diplomatic credentials, protections as a result of diplomatic efforts to secure a treaty. You've completely misunderstood.
 
  • #161
Watching this discussion progress, I've become more aware of the slippery slope ahead with regards to internet regulation.

Assange is not a journalist - he didn't write or edit the information posted - given the sheer volume it's doubtful he even read all of the content.

Assange is also not an individual (like a PF member) freely exchanging ideas.

Assange is in a class of his own. He doesn't seem to care where or how information is obtained and apparently doesn't care about consequences to individuals.

While it's important to address this specific situation, I'm in no hurry to call for a central regulatory authority over internet content - identity protection and theft/fraud is a separate topic.
 
  • #162
WhoWee said:
Watching this discussion progress, I've become more aware of the slippery slope ahead with regards to internet regulation.

Assange is not a journalist - he didn't write or edit the information posted - given the sheer volume it's doubtful he even read all of the content.

Assange is also not an individual (like a PF member) freely exchanging ideas.

Assange is in a class of his own. He doesn't seem to care where or how information is obtained and apparently doesn't care about consequences to individuals.

While it's important to address this specific situation, I'm in no hurry to call for a central regulatory authority over internet content - identity protection and theft/fraud is a separate topic.

This is a lesson to everyone, teaching a fundamental truth that has been the case for over a decade: once something hits the internet there are NO MEASURES that can be taken that will stop determined users from disseminating the information. If you want to protect your diplomatic cables, it has better be at the source. You'd think this would be instinctual for people who live by the adage that, "Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead." (Benjamin Franklin)
 
  • #163
nismaratwork said:
You'd think this would be instinctual for people who live by the adage that, "Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead." (Benjamin Franklin)

...and sometimes that doesn't even work.:rolleyes:
 
  • #164
WhoWee said:
Watching this discussion progress, I've become more aware of the slippery slope ahead with regards to internet regulation.

Assange is not a journalist - he didn't write or edit the information posted - given the sheer volume it's doubtful he even read all of the content.

Assange is also not an individual (like a PF member) freely exchanging ideas.

Assange is in a class of his own. He doesn't seem to care where or how information is obtained and apparently doesn't care about consequences to individuals.

While it's important to address this specific situation, I'm in no hurry to call for a central regulatory authority over internet content - identity protection and theft/fraud is a separate topic.

Assange is running a press. is the journalism distinction really important?
 
  • #165
Proton Soup said:
Assange is running a press. is the journalism distinction really important?

IMO - it's important in the context of future discussions regarding regulation of the "press" on the internet.
 
  • #166
Just saw this on BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11882092
After this latest release a Pentagon official, who wished to remain anonymous due to the sensitive nature of the material involved, told the McClatchy newspaper group that even three months later the US military still had no evidence that people had died or been harmed because of information gleaned from Wikileaks documents.
 
  • #167
Evo, I am withdrawing from my discussion with you pending external review of your moderation decisions. I do intend to return to that discussion later, if possible.

mheslep said:
It is also not against Australian law for Assange to come to the US and rob a liquor store or sexually assault somebody, but it is in the US, and he can be held accountable for that or violation of US law by agreement between the US and Australia.


This is true. The difference there is that the crime would have been committed within US jurisdiction. You can only be held accountable to the laws of whoever has jurisdiction.

In the case of Wikileaks, the "crime" was releasing documents which were deemed classified by the US. In the UK (the country under who's jurisdiction Assange currently finds himself), this is not against the law, to my knowledge.

Newai said:
That's why we have extradition treaties with other countries. Where it is an equivalent crime in his own country, if he commits that crime against another, his country may honor the extradition treaty they have with the U.S. and let the U.S. try him for the equivalent offense.

Most current extradition treaties require that the crime being extradited for have been committed within the jurisdiction of the country requesting the extradition. They also frequently have an exception that alleged crimes that are political in nature are not eligible for extradition. If/when the US makes a formal extradition request, then we will have to take a look at the treaty with whichever country Assange is in at the time.
 
  • #168
NeoDevin said:
This is true. The difference there is that the crime would have been committed within US jurisdiction. You can only be held accountable to the laws of whoever has jurisdiction.

This isn't strictly true. For example
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_960.html
There are also some things that might be legal in the country you visit, but still illegal in the United States, and you can be prosecuted under U.S. law if you buy pirated goods or engage in child pornography.
 
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  • #169
Office_Shredder said:
This isn't strictly true. For example
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_960.html

This is true, but you can't be extradited for them (to my knowledge), only charged upon your return.
 
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  • #170
I'm rather surprised that many seem to so quick to jump to the defense of the US government and to villify Assange. Personally, I try to keep in mind the old saying "Both the family with children and the family without feel sorry for one another" when engaging in potentially controversial discussions such as this. I hope that Assange's revelations may be the the first steps to a world in which governments are more open with and accountable to one another and their citizens.
 
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  • #171
Office_Shredder said:
Just saw this on BBC...

They're missing the point, which is that intelligence operations are risky enough as it is, and do not need the signficant additional risk cause by a very rich person who's only concern is increasing his wealth, regardless of the cost or damage resulting from his actions.

If informants lose their lives, that would be tragic enough. Whether or not that happens, however, is largely immaterial, as most damage involves the loss of the intelligence channels, highly useful in thwarting the activities of terrorists and insurgents. Their efforts are either stopped, avoided, or minimized, in large part due to intelligence channels.

Without those channels, many more terrorist activities will be successful, resulting in increased casualties to Iraqi/Afghanistan civilians, police, government officials, as well as to our own sons and daughters over there.

Oh, by the way: Yeah! http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_wikileaks_assange" !

About time.

Digitalism said:
I'm rather surprised that many seem to so quick to jump to the defense of the US government and to villify Assange.

Assange notified our government of possession of the documents long before he made them public. Our government notified Assange that would be a global "no-no" if he went ahead and did so. I therefore have no sympathy for Assange for his choice to make a buck regardless of the damage he's caused.
 
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  • #172
NeoDevin said:
Most current extradition treaties require that the crime being extradited for have been committed within the jurisdiction of the country requesting the extradition. They also frequently have an exception that alleged crimes that are political in nature are not eligible for extradition. If/when the US makes a formal extradition request, then we will have to take a look at the treaty with whichever country Assange is in at the time.
Bold mine.

Please demonstrate this for me, because I can't find such a requirement in the Swedish-U.S. treaty as necessarily outlined in Article IV. I can't say for the U.S.-U.K. treaty, but I would like to see that as well. Anyway, the only provision I see is if the crime being charged calls for at least a two-year sentence regardless where it occurred.
 
  • #173
Newai said:
Bold mine.

Please demonstrate this for me, because I can't find such a requirement in the Swedish-U.S. treaty as necessarily outlined in Article IV. I can't say for the U.S.-U.K. treaty, but I would like to see that as well. Anyway, the only provision I see is if the crime being charged calls for at least a two-year sentence regardless where it occurred.

I stand corrected, and withdraw the claim. Interestingly, in my reading, I found that the US-UK extradition treaty allows for the extradition of UK citizens who have violated US law within the UK. If I were a UK citizen, I would find this very worrying.

Edit: See http://www.duhaime.org/LegalResources/CriminalLaw/LawArticle-99/Extradition-Law--Canada.aspx" , for example:
The first step is the receipt by Canada of evidence from another state that the alleged conduct of the person sought while that person was in the jurisdiction of the requesting country, would have been a crime if committed in Canada ("dual criminality") and which could have been punishable by two or more years of incarceration.
Which is what I based my assumption on.
 
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  • #174
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Restrictions" has revealed something interesting:
In the case of Soering v. United Kingdom, the European Court of Human Rights held that it would violate Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights to extradite a person to the United States from the United Kingdom in a capital case. This was due to the harsh conditions on death row and the uncertain timescale within which the sentence would be executed. Parties to the European Convention also cannot extradite people where they would be at significant risk of being tortured inhumanely or degradingly treated or punished

Note that the European Convention on Human Rights applies to both UK and Sweden.

Given the US recent history with torture, and the fact that many in the US are calling for Assange's death, this will likely drag on for years and ultimately prove futile if the US requests extradition.

Also from the same link:
Most countries require themselves to deny extradition requests if, in the government's opinion, the suspect is sought for a political crime.
 
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  • #175
nismaratwork said:
This is a lesson to everyone
...
If you want to protect your diplomatic cables, it has better be at the source.

The lesson wikileaks are trying to teach us is deeper than that. The lesson is that ALL sources do leak eventually.

So the real lesson, that wikileaks try to teach us is that democracy must build on transparency with a minimum of sercret sources in the first place. It's that fact that there exists secrets (in particular about foreign relations, corruption, military abuse or other "doubtful" actions that) that is the real threat to democracy.

As far as I understand, this is the major lesson of wikileaks, and what we now see is the proof, the hard way.

We must be careful to not response to this "event" in a way that weakens democracy. MORE secrecy, more violent measures to eliminate leaks is a measure in an unfortunately direction IMO.

/Fredrik
 
  • #176
From the http://internationalextraditionblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/us-sweden-extradition-supplementary-treaty-35-ust-2501.pdf" (Article II.1):

An offense shall be an extraditable offense only if it is punishable under the laws of both Contracting States by deprivation of liberty for a period of at least two years.

Since publishing documents classified by the US is not an offense "punishable under the laws" of Sweden, I think the US will have trouble getting Assange extradited from Sweden.
 
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  • #177
NeoDevin said:
I stand corrected, and withdraw the claim. Interestingly, in my reading, I found that the US-UK extradition treaty allows for the extradition of UK citizens who have violated US law within the UK. If I were a UK citizen, I would find this very worrying.

Edit: See http://www.duhaime.org/LegalResources/CriminalLaw/LawArticle-99/Extradition-Law--Canada.aspx" , for example:

Which is what I based my assumption on.

Here's what I think is worrying:
McNabb Ferrari said:
Whether there is an extradition treaty in place or not, the U.S. Supreme Court has said that it is legally proper for a U.S. federal agent to kidnap an individual from a foreign country, even if in contravention of that country’s local law. The kidnapping is not the basis for dismissal of the U.S. charges. Tricking, lying, and deceiving by federal agents is also allowed.
http://www.mcnabbferrari.com/international-extradition-cases.html

I'm sure there is similar attitude and precedence with many of our allies toward us. Well, I'm not too worried since I'm not hostile toward any country, but wow.
 
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  • #178
Newai said:
I'm sure there is similar attitude and precedence with many of our allies toward us.

Don't suppose you could find any support for that (the "many of our allies do the same" claim)? I just did a quick google search and couldn't find anything, all that came up are cases of kidnapping within a particular country.
 
  • #179
Newai said:
Here's what I think is worrying:
http://www.mcnabbferrari.com/international-extradition-cases.html

Has this actually ever been attempted by the US, against an ally? Or even another "first world" country?
 
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  • #180
NeoDevin said:
Don't suppose you could find any support for that (the "many of our allies do the same" claim)? I just did a quick google search and couldn't find anything, all that came up are cases of kidnapping within a particular country.
Nope. Only an assumption. But if our SC is willing enough...

NeoDevin said:
Has this actually ever been attempted by the US, against an ally? Or even another "first world" country?
[PLAIN]http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4384/shrugsmiley5.gif
 
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  • #181
I'm wondering what the actual decision was.
After much googling the closest I've been able to find is

http://www.straightdope.com/columns...al-waters-are-you-beyond-the-reach-of-the-law
Even if none of these exceptions apply, U.S. courts have held that arrest in violation of international law doesn't necessarily bar prosecution. For example, in United States v. Postal, the defendants were U.S. nationals arrested on board a vessel registered in the Grand Cayman Islands, 16 miles from shore (which at the time was the high seas). The United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit found that though the arrest violated the Convention on the High Seas (1958), the treaty violation didn't impair the court's jurisdiction. The Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit followed suit in 2002. So on the high seas not only are you not beyond the reach of any nation, sometimes you're with the reach of two.
 
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  • #182
NeoDevin said:
Since publishing documents classified by the US is not an offense "punishable under the laws" of Sweden, I think the US will have trouble getting Assange extradited from Sweden.

Even if they were, there is another issue. Sweden usually should not exchange anyone that risk facing the death penalty, or by any means risk facing a unfair trial. Alot of people outside US seriously doubt that Assange would get even close to a fair trial in US. Where "fair" is a measure defined by the world, not by US domestic measures.

So even IF, US would come up with a charge, if Sweden has insufficient confidence that he will be treated fairly by swedish standards, he can't be exchanged as that would be in violation to swedish humanity law.

/Fredrik
 
  • #183
The problem is it seems that Assange does not TRUST that the swedish justice will work, as wikileaks has revealed that thus has happened in the past.

Because no matter what the law is like, there are workarounds, or secret missions outside the law.

The trick used in the past is that as long as the illegal activites are kept secret from the public, and apparently even to selected parts to leaders. And what's known, obviously never took place. This is the type of democratic problems wikileaks is fighting.

So apparently, laws can and are violated, in conflict with democracy, as long as they are kept secret. Now that's a dangerous game, which most obvious when such infomration is leaked.

/Fredrik
 
  • #184
Fra said:
The lesson wikileaks are trying to teach us is deeper than that. The lesson is that ALL sources do leak eventually.

So the real lesson, that wikileaks try to teach us is that democracy must build on transparency with a minimum of sercret sources in the first place. It's that fact that there exists secrets (in particular about foreign relations, corruption, military abuse or other "doubtful" actions that) that is the real threat to democracy.

As far as I understand, this is the major lesson of wikileaks, and what we now see is the proof, the hard way.

We must be careful to not response to this "event" in a way that weakens democracy. MORE secrecy, more violent measures to eliminate leaks is a measure in an unfortunately direction IMO.

/Fredrik

I don't believe that Wikileaks showed us anything that wasn't already known, discussed, or suspected... these are hardly The Pentagon Papers. I'll grant that all security, given enough time, is bound to fail. I won't grant that all security is bound to fail in the form of a catastrophically LARGE leak. The trick isn't an attempt at perfect security, but to ensure that measures are in place to constantly screen for a breach. I mean, if a CIA station chief decides to defect to another country, that would be unfortunate, but even they have a limit to what they know. Essentially nobody made a similar decision between high level diplomats, and teenagers in the army.

We SHOULD be saying, "We were betrayed, but the scope of the betrayal was made possible by our own incompetence... let's learn from this." I don't think that requires a more strict or invasive government, unless you have a security clearance.

You've also characterized Wikileaks as part of a fight, but I'm not seeing that their work-product forwards the cause of liberty... just knowing details that are mostly already known. I look at hacking groups inside of the PRC, or Iran, who work with groups such as the Cult of The Dead Cow to bypass national firewalls. If Assange could do something of similar import then we'd be talking more about the papers than the people who got them (as with the Pentagon Papers).
 
  • #186
NeoDevin said:
I stand corrected, and withdraw the claim. Interestingly, in my reading, I found that the US-UK extradition treaty allows for the extradition of UK citizens who have violated US law within the UK. If I were a UK citizen, I would find this very worrying.
Why? IMO, one of the requirements of a civilized world is that civilized countries recognize each other's laws - especially if those laws are similar to their own laws. The concept is generally recognized internationally, it's just the application is still problematic.

Right now the US is having trouble with two international kidnapping cases, one where a minor child ran away to Brazil (?) with an adult boyfriend and was taken-in by the Brazilian family. In another, a Japanese (-American?) mom kidnapped her American kid and moved to Japan. In neither case is the other country recognizing the American claim. Could you imagine the US not returning a kidnapped British kid?

We also have corporate espionage problems with Japan and Polanski who escaped his statutory rape punishment because France doesn't recognize statutory rape.

Is the issue here really that people are not grasping the concept of international reach of law or is it this specific case that people object to? Would people still object to extradition if it was their own country's secrets platered on the net and their own country's soldiers at risk due to them?
 
  • #187
nismaratwork said:
I don't believe that Wikileaks showed us anything that wasn't already known, discussed, or suspected...

I agree. But they added more explicit proof. And increased global awareness. It's the public (ie. the voters) that should be informed.

Also some people are slower than others are learning a certin lesson.

Also, to simply speak for myself, I have learned things that I didn't know, that will change the way i act/vote in the future.

nismaratwork said:
You've also characterized Wikileaks as part of a fight, but I'm not seeing that their work-product forwards the cause of liberty... just knowing details that are mostly already known.

I see it. To suspect, and to know are different. There is also a difference that some government people konws something, and that everyone knows it.

I don't see it necessarily as a "fight" as I see it as part of development. Sure, wikileaks seem to want to change the world indeed. But they do so without military weapons. And they don't just leak US secrets, their objective (as expressed by Assange himself) is to show that it's not a tenable situation to hide doubtful and immoral acts from the democratic system. And the point is that many of this doubtulf actions simply would not take place, if people understood that they can' be kept secret. One possible conclusion is that the price for keeping it secret at all cost will again WEAKEN democracy, not strenghten it. So the solution is not to secure all leaks, the solution is to make sure there are not explosive information to leak in the first place.

What I find most interesting in this, is to simply study WHICH lessons certain parties make from the given event and what their logic is. There are different conclusions one can draw as well. The question is which of them that is likely to lead to a better world for most people?

/Fredrik
 
  • #188
NeoDevin, I don't think it's as simple as "you broke a US law in the UK, therefore we'll deport you there for trial".

When they say violated a US law, I believe it is similar to the current extradition case in the UK with the hacker who got into the pentagon looking for aliens. The violation of law has to have been against the US. Otherwise it's like the US saying theft is illegal, the UK saying theft is legal and so when someone steals something they can be sent to the US for trial. It doesn't work like that.
 
  • #189
Fra said:
I agree. But they added more explicit proof. And increased global awareness. It's the public (ie. the voters) that should be informed.

Also some people are slower than others are learning a certin lesson.

Also, to simply speak for myself, I have learned things that I didn't know, that will change the way i act/vote in the future.



I see it. To suspect, and to know are different. There is also a difference that some government people konws something, and that everyone knows it.

I don't see it necessarily as a "fight" as I see it as part of development. Sure, wikileaks seem to want to change the world indeed. But they do so without military weapons. And they don't just leak US secrets, their objective (as expressed by Assange himself) is to show that it's not a tenable situation to hide doubtful and immoral acts from the democratic system. And the point is that many of this doubtulf actions simply would not take place, if people understood that they can' be kept secret. One possible conclusion is that the price for keeping it secret at all cost will again WEAKEN democracy, not strenghten it. So the solution is not to secure all leaks, the solution is to make sure there are not explosive information to leak in the first place.

What I find most interesting in this, is to simply study WHICH lessons certain parties make from the given event and what their logic is. There are different conclusions one can draw as well. The question is which of them that is likely to lead to a better world for most people?

/Fredrik

Well, I believe we agree on the facts, but not at any point philosophically, which is fine... there's no requirement that we all sing the same tune. Personally, I believe that when someone makes a choice (here I'm thinking of Pfc. Manning) to commit treason, there should be a damned good reason which obviates the act... or it's just spying. The Pentagon Papers showed that we were in Laos and bombing Cambodia, and so much more that was denied at the presidential level.

Assange got his hands on intra-diplomatic dirty laundry and evidence of events which are admitted to have happened, such as drone strikes fatal to civilians. I don't think that increasing public awareness of already-known quantities is a good enough reason to take such drastic action. You do... I don't see how this can end except in a simple disagreement between the two of us.


NeoDevin: Let me get this straight... countries regularly negotiate the exchange of prisoners, spies, and more... but you think that Sweden and the USA couldn't come to an understanding concerning Assange? That's tipping the scales on naive.
 
  • #190
Office_Shredder said:
Not surprising: It may never be possible to prove Assange committed murder unles the Taliban announces it. The military doesn't employ CSI teams to investigate every civilian death in war and can't easily arrest and interview suspects.
This is one of the pitfalls to trying to apply civilian standards of justice here - and likely why espionage itself carries such harsh penalties.
 
  • #191
russ_watters said:
Not surprising: It may never be possible to prove Assange committed murder unles the Taliban announces it. The military doesn't employ CSI teams to investigate every civilian death in war and can't easily arrest and interview suspects.
This is one of the pitfalls to trying to apply civilian standards of justice here - and likely why espionage itself carries such harsh penalties.

I'd rather see information which could burn a source not tossed around in cables available for secret and no-foreign users of a HUGE network. If someone dies because of this leak, Assange or others will share in blame, but ultimately the people who couldn't be bothered to use a secure code-designation for a source bear the most.
 
  • #192
Fra said:
So the real lesson, that wikileaks try to teach us is that democracy must build on transparency with a minimum of sercret sources in the first place. It's that fact that there exists secrets (in particular about foreign relations, corruption, military abuse or other "doubtful" actions that) that is the real threat to democracy.

As far as I understand, this is the major lesson of wikileaks, and what we now see is the proof, the hard way.
/Fredrik
Rediculous. There is no country in the world that would consider such releases acceptable - even the most liberal of democracies (which the US is).
 
  • #193
nismaratwork said:
I believe that when someone makes a choice (here I'm thinking of Pfc. Manning) to commit treason, there should be a damned good reason which obviates the act... or it's just spying.

There isn't much discussino about Manning in non US media so I don't have much opinon.

It's probably because the actions of Manning and the actions of wikileaks are two separate.

The only thing I've seen in media is a wikileaks trace of a communicating manning had with a colleague admitting he sent the secret files to wikileaks and that he raised concern of what he did, but that he had to do it due to conscience.

I see two cures:
US solders should not should not have access to unneccesary information?
Or make sure to selected solders as to now have so much conscience?

After all, the command structure in the military is based on following orders. The real question is if a soldier that refuse to follow orders or rules, due to his own conscience is good or bad?

I have to admit that as a general statement I think it's good. People that think on their own are rare.

/Fredrik
 
  • #194
russ_watters said:
Rediculous. There is no country in the world that would consider such releases acceptable - even the most liberal of democracies (which the US is).

I think this is painful lesson that due to the inertia in these systems will change slowly. I think no-one would want to reveal all secrets to everybody. That's not what I think is the point - this is just a method of provocation wikileaks uses.

I think the idea is that awareness that whenever there is a secret operation, you better follow laws and moral standards because it may be revealed. In the long term this will increase the awareness of all actors in the world.

It's basic psychology that people in fact DO things, when they think it will not be discovered, that they would otherwise not do. This is a problem when it happens in democratic systems. Because the lack of transparency, may allow things to happen that build up tension in the world.

For example abuses that takes place in foreign territory, could be dangerous as it feeds terrorist and fanatis. Obviously the logic is understandale. See your family get killed for whatever reason and there is a good chance, that with the lack of proper education you grow up with strange ideas. These things must nto be supressed, the supression feeds more tension. To deny bad acts feeds it more.

To admit and apologize, reduces tension.

I certainly want to know if my government misbehaves. This is critical feedback for ME then next time I vote.

I think there is a big difference between what the official statements are of politicians, and what a lot of the public think.

/Fredrik
 
  • #195
russ_watters said:
Why? IMO, one of the requirements of a civilized world is that civilized countries recognize each other's laws - especially if those laws are similar to their own laws. The concept is generally recognized internationally, it's just the application is still problematic.

I haven't been able to find a copy of the US-UK treaty yet, but my understanding (from Wiki, so possibly incorrect) is that there is no requirement for "dual-criminality" (that the offense in question be against the laws of both US and UK). That is: You can perform an action which is legal in the UK, and then be extradited to the US for it.

russ_watters said:
Could you imagine the US not returning a kidnapped British kid?

I have a harder time imagining a case where the US would recognize the foreign claim. I could be mistaken, feel free to find some examples.

russ_watters said:
We also have corporate espionage problems with Japan and Polanski who escaped his statutory rape punishment because France doesn't recognize statutory rape.

I'm not familiar with this case. Presumable the statutory rape was committed within US jurisdiction?

russ_watters said:
Is the issue here really that people are not grasping the concept of international reach of law or is it this specific case that people object to? Would people still object to extradition if it was their own country's secrets platered on the net and their own country's soldiers at risk due to them?

Do you really not understand that, while you are in the UK you are not (should not?) be subject to US laws? It is not this specific case that I'm objecting to, it's the idea that, while in UK/Sweden/etc. Americans believe that Australian citizens should be bound and punishable by US laws, despite having committed no crime within the jurisdiction of the US.
 
  • #196
nismaratwork said:
I don't believe that Wikileaks showed us anything that wasn't already known, discussed, or suspected...
What?! Let's not lose sight of the facts here folks: names and locations of informants in a war zone is not information we already knew!
 
  • #197
russ_watters said:
What?! Let's not lose sight of the facts here folks: names and locations of informants in a war zone is not information we already knew!

That really has nothing to do with my point... that information doesn't somehow add to the public discourse, and it is harmful. I was saying, and in context it's clear, that Wikileaks hasn't shown us anything scandalous that was not already generally available.

edit: To be sure, I think that compromising sources in the name of journalism is pretty unforgivable unless the story is worth a life. Some are... this one wasn't. I would like to know why information that could compromise 100 sources in-country was being fired about in cables available in a horribly insecure network available to hundreds of thousands of people?
 
  • #198
NeoDevin said:
Do you really not understand that, while you are in the UK you are not (should not?) be subject to US laws? It is not this specific case that I'm objecting to, it's the idea that, while in UK/Sweden/etc. Americans believe that Australian citizens should be bound and punishable by US laws, despite having committed no crime within the jurisdiction of the US.
This thread is specifically about the actions of Assange. You continue to drag this thread off topic with your opinions about people going about their daily lives. Please do not continue this tactic here. Either post specifically about Assange's case or please do not post.

You also still need to cite the previous sources which were requested. You cannot just keep making statements without backing them up. Have you read the guidelines for P&WA?
 
  • #199
Evo said:
This thread is specifically about the actions of Assange. You continue to drag this thread off topic with your opinions about people going about their daily lives. Please do not continue this tactic here. Either post specifically about Assange's case or please do not post.

You also still need to cite the previous sources which were requested. You cannot just keep making statements without backing them up. Have you read the guidelines for P&WA?

I am leaving this discussion before I end up banned. I hereby retract any and all claims allegedly made in this thread, since I cannot provide sources for claims I didn't make.

Sorry to everyone I was having productive discussions with, but this thread is not worth being banned over.
 
Last edited:
  • #200
Relevant. It is very unfortunate that CNN decided not to extend this interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM_IdfPPmEY
 

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