News WikiLeaks reveals sites critical to US security

[CRGreathouse]

No, it's a criminal offense. ICE has shut down 80 websites just recently for criminal copyright violation.

It's worth mentioning that this leak is *not* a copyright violation, insofar as the leaked material is the product of US government employees. (Of course they would presumably be in violation of the National Security Act of 1947 and/or EO 13526 and/or the UCMJ.)

 

[Evo]

It's worth mentioning that this leak is *not* a copyright violation, insofar as the leaked material is the product of US government employees. (Of course they would presumably be in violation of the National Security Act of 1947 and/or EO 13526 and/or the UCMJ.)

I think jack21222 knows that now.

 

[Jack21222]

I think jack21222 knows that now.

I still maintain that it's largely civil, not criminal. I've found this website which cites US law, but, I cannot vouch for its accuracy.

http://stason.org/TULARC/business/c...t-infringement-a-crime-or-a-civil-matter.html

However, under certain circumstances, it may also be a federal crime. A
copyright infringement is subject to criminal prosecution if infringement
is willful and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial
gain.

In my opinion, it's FAR more common for copyright violations to NOT be for commercial gain. The millions of people in the United States who have pirated music, movies, or software for personal use have not committed a crime according to that website, because it wasn't for commercial advantage or private financial gain.

Russ's example was copying a CD and giving away one copy for free. This is NOT a crime. If my source is wrong, please post a better source saying so.

Edit: My source is from 16 years ago, but I'm struggling to find more recent, credible answers. It's past midnight, and I have better things to do before bed than parse US code.

 

[CRGreathouse]

IANAL

In my opinion, it's FAR more common for copyright violations to NOT be for commercial gain. The millions of people in the United States who have pirated music, movies, or software for personal use have not committed a crime according to that website, because it wasn't for commercial advantage or private financial gain.

Look at §506(a)(1)(B). If you hit a six-month total of $1000 retail value (probably not unreasonable, and extremely easy if they allow double counting -- I don't know the case law here) then it's criminal, not civil.

The penalties are also pretty severe even on the civil side. Statutory damages are between $750 and $30,000 per work. That probably means that one such lawsuit takes all your money.

 

[Evo]

I still maintain that it's largely civil, not criminal. I've found this website which cites US law, but, I cannot vouch for its accuracy.

http://stason.org/TULARC/business/c...t-infringement-a-crime-or-a-civil-matter.html



In my opinion, it's FAR more common for copyright violations to NOT be for commercial gain. The millions of people in the United States who have pirated music, movies, or software for personal use have not committed a crime according to that website, because it wasn't for commercial advantage or private financial gain.

Russ's example was copying a CD and giving away one copy for free. This is NOT a crime. If my source is wrong, please post a better source saying so.

Edit: My source is from 16 years ago, but I'm struggling to find more recent, credible answers. It's past midnight, and I have better things to do before bed than parse US code.

<sigh>

Last week, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security seized over 80 websites for alleged copyright and trademark violations. Caught up along with many sites alleged to be selling counterfeit clothing and other products were five entertainment websites, including the popular hip-hop blogs OnSmash.com and dajaz1.com.

All that remains on their homepages is a stern notice from the government threatening steep fines and prison time under federal statutes.

Even uploading something that is copyrighted and allowing downloads is illegal because it denies the owner the profit of a sale.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Music/12/01/homeland.security.rap.blog.ew/index.html?section=cnn_latest

But this is OFF TOPIC. THE END.

 

[Fra]

Eh, a simple note to the Pentagon letting them know about the security flaw might have sufficed.

I suspect the point is to show the world(=the democratic system), that weaknesses. Because the entire world is ultimately the democratic basis.

One of the points of wikileaks (as far as I understand their logic) is that too much secrecy (in particular that countries has governmentms and special forces that excecute actions that are in fact not know to the public) is a democratic problem, because the population will from the point of view of the environment be held responsible for any action executed by secret special forces as well. I personally would not want to be held responsible for stupid things my government does. What I am unaware if, means I don't even have a chance to vote against it.

/Fredrik

 

[Evo]

I suspect the point is to show the world, that weaknesses. Because the entire world is ultimately the democratic basis.

One of the points of wikileaks (as far as I understand their logic) is that too much secrecy (in particular that countries has governmentms and special forces that excecute actions that are in fact not know to the public) is a democratic problem, because the population will from the point of view of the environment be held responsible for any action executed by secret special forces as well. I personally would not want to be held responsible for stupid things my government does. What I am unaware if, means I don't even have a chance to vote against it.

/Fredrik

Well, we know now that was all garbage, his true intent is now known. We've moved past any good intent.

 

[Fra]

Well, we know now that was all garbage, his true intent is now known. We've moved past any good intent.

Which is? I you mean to say "damage US", which is somewhat obvious (but he has caused damage also to other countries, so US is not alone), the question is what is his motives for doing that?

Any ideas? That it's just pure evil is something I find utterly unlikely. That he would say be on al quaidas payroll I also find unlikely.

/Fredrik

 

[Mathnomalous]

Well, we know now that was all garbage, his true intent is now known. We've moved past any good intent.

Whatever Assange's intentions are, they do not change the nature of the information Wikileaks is releasing. Also, it seems some influential people understood Assange's intentions:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/world/24assange.html?_r=2&hp
http://www.slate.com/id/2276857/

All you need to know about Assange is contained in the profile of him by the great John F. Burns and in his shockingly thuggish response to it. The man is plainly a micro-megalomaniac with few if any scruples and an undisguised agenda. As I wrote before, when he says that his aim is "to end two wars," one knows at once what he means by the "ending."

I would like to correct a mistake I made before. I said Assange is Swedish. He is not. He is Australian.

 

[Evo]

Which is? I you mean to say "damage US", which is somewhat obvious (but he has caused damage also to other countries, so US is not alone), the question is what is his motives for doing that?

Any ideas? That it's just pure evil is something I find utterly unlikely. That he would say be on al quaidas payroll I also find unlikely.

/Fredrik

The upload this thread is about was done specifically to harm the US. He has now threatened to upload documents that are, in his words, "a thermonuclear device in the information age.” He doesn't care about the harm he does, he now plans to upload all of the unredacted documents with the names and locations of all people. The guy is a scum bag.

 

[Fra]

I picture it like this: Yes he is causing damage, but the damange might be directed to an undemocratic and partly corrupt workings of a system. I don't think this refer to the country as such and it's people, it refers to the strategy.

Lets consider the following scenario. A big armoured system A, interacts with it's environment. A has gained confidence and used to using forced to bully development in a certain direction at the expense of others. This creates tension in the environment, enemies are grown. But A knows that it's big enough to handle this. So A's strategy works and is successful.

Until the point when someone reveals that A has a weak point, that can't be tightened with bullets. Then A is forces to revise it's survival strategy. The only way to secure it is to make sense there is no one that wants to hit on the weak point, because they see that they are also dependent on you.

/Fredrik

 

[Fra]

The upload this thread is about was done specifically to harm the US. He has now threatened to upload documents that are, in his words, "a thermonuclear device in the information age.” He doesn't care about the harm he does, he now plans to upload all of the unredacted documents with the names and locations of all people. The guy is a scum bag.

Sorry, maybe it's something I missed, is ther a link somewhere?

/Fredrik

 

[Mathnomalous]

The upload this thread is about was done specifically to harm the US. He has now threatened to upload documents that are, in his words, "a thermonuclear device in the information age.” He doesn't care about the harm he does, he now plans to upload all of the unredacted documents with the names and locations of all people. The guy is a scum bag.

Can you provide specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause?

 

[Evo]

Can you provide specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause?

Read the threads.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Can you provide specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause?

Off the top of my head:

• Releasing names of confidential informants, putting their lives in serious jeopardy and reducing effectiveness of intelligence efforts worldwide.
• Releasing strategic planning documents w.r.t. troops currently deployed abroad.

 

[Evo]

Sorry, maybe it's something I missed, is ther a link somewhere?

/Fredrik

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/assange-threatens-to-release-entire-cache-of-unfiltered-files/article1825922/

 

[Mathnomalous]

Off the top of my head:

• Releasing names of confidential informants, putting their lives in serious jeopardy and reducing effectiveness of intelligence efforts worldwide.
• Releasing strategic planning documents w.r.t. troops currently deployed abroad.

Those are your claims. For all we know, world governments may simply readjust and continue business as usual.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Those are your claims. For all we know, world governments may simply readjust and continue business as usual.

You asked for specific examples of possible harm, and I obliged. I'm not sure your reply actually makes any useful point w.r.t. my specific examples however...

 

[humanino]

You asked for specific examples of possible harm, and I obliged. I'm not sure your reply actually makes any useful point w.r.t. my specific examples however...

Your answer is speculative. It does not refer to actual events.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Your answer is speculative. It does not refer to actual events.

So you're looking for historical precedent, as in previously leaked similar documents that caused specific harmful events? That, I don't have on the top of my head, but I will look around.

Edit- it occurs to me that since classified leaked documents are "classified, " I suspect events occurring from their release (without subsequent declassification) would be classified as well. I'm not sure I'll be able to find the specific historical events you seek...

Edit more- I will also point out he asked for "specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause," the "will cause" part being speculative in nature.

 

[rootX]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-europe-11933089

Wikileaks: US-Nato plan to defend Baltics from Russia

Arguing that wikileaks is not delivering harmful information will be very hard.

 

[rootX]

The upload this thread is about was done specifically to harm the US. He has now threatened to upload documents that are, in his words, "a thermonuclear device in the information age.” He doesn't care about the harm he does, he now plans to upload all of the unredacted documents with the names and locations of all people. The guy is a scum bag.

I think you are neglecting the worst case scenario which is he or one of his aides pass this information to China/Russia/Al-Qeada quietly for big sum of money.
Capturing/killing him or his aides, shutting down wikileaks is a simple minded knee jerk reaction which wouldn't make data disappear. Problem is not him; problem is data is in the hands of people who are not US officials. The US government failed to protect its data; and is trying to pass the blame on people who stole data which is rational and legitimate but that doesn't help undo the mistake. China/Russia/anyone else with people like Assange could also have done this.

 

[humanino]

So you're looking for historical precedent, as in previously leaked similar documents that caused specific harmful events?

No. I do not claim to doubt the leaks will be harmful. In fact Assange himself does not reject the harm, he rather claims for a "greater good". Like they say "one does not make an omelette without breaking eggs"... I am asking whether we have already identified victims, or other form of harm.

I did not ask earlier, but if anybody knows of evidence for anything good resulting from the leaks, it would also be interesting to post them

Edit- it occurs to me that since classified leaked documents are "classified, " I suspect events occurring from their release (without subsequent declassification) would be classified as well. I'm not sure I'll be able to find the specific historical events you seek...

I had not realized this.

Edit more- I will also point out he asked for "specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause," the "will cause" part being speculative in nature.

I noticed the same.

 

[Mathnomalous]

So you're looking for historical precedent, as in previously leaked similar documents that caused specific harmful events? That, I don't have on the top of my head, but I will look around.

Edit- it occurs to me that since classified leaked documents are "classified, " I suspect events occurring from their release (without subsequent declassification) would be classified as well. I'm not sure I'll be able to find the specific historical events you seek...

Edit more- I will also point out he asked for "specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause," the "will cause" part being speculative in nature.

In other words, any harm that occurs from these releases will probably be kept classified and we may possibly continue living normal lives. Here is an information release that actually caused harm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ems_Dispatch

The Ems Dispatch (French: Dépêche d'Ems, German: Emser Depesche), sometimes called the Ems Telegram, caused France to declare the Franco-Prussian War in July 1870. The actual dispatch was an internal message from the Prussian King's vacationing site to Bismarck in Berlin, reporting demands made by the French ambassador; it was Bismarck's released statement to the press that became known as Ems Dispatch. The name referred to Bad Ems, a resort spa east of Koblenz on the Lahn river, then situated in Hesse-Nassau, a new possession of Prussia.

Here is another classified document leak that caused harm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram

The Zimmermann Telegram (or Zimmermann Note; German: Zimmermann-Depesche; Spanish: Telegrama Zimmermann) was a 1917 diplomatic proposal from the German Empire to Mexico to make war against the United States. The proposal was declined by Mexico, but angered Americans and led in part to the declaration of war in April.

The Zimmermann Telegram was intercepted and decoded by the British cryptographers of Room 40.[2] The revelation of its contents in the American press on March 1 caused public outrage that contributed to the United States' declaration of war against Germany and its allies on April 6.

I think you are neglecting the worst case scenario which is he or one of his aides pass this information to China/Russia/Al-Qeada quietly for big sum of money.

As opposed to those foreign countries waiting for the information to be released for free.

 

[Fra]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/assange-threatens-to-release-entire-cache-of-unfiltered-files/article1825922/

Thanks.

From that information it seems the motive seems to be simply an insurance against responses to the previously released information that means attempting to terminate wikileaks. It seems they have on purpose not published that because the "temporary conflict" that may arise due to revealing it, risk beeing fatal - in accordance with the rationale that the purpose is to strengthen and develop the global democracy - not destroy it.

Somehow this is the only defense they have. My hope is that, development quickly takes the turn so that these overly sensitive documents does not have to be released.

My impression is still that it's not wikileaks goal to release fatallysensitive information. I don't think they will publish this if the threats against wikilekas ang assange is dropped.

I think it's a mistake to try to shutdown wikileaks and Assange. It's not the response I hope for. It's clear however that it's politically incorrect to approve assange, so I fully understand the protests. But I think trying to shutdown and kill this guy is irrational.

/Fredrik

 

[Newai]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/assange-threatens-to-release-entire-cache-of-unfiltered-files/article1825922/

Mr. Assange’s lawyer Mark Stephens warned that if Mr. Assange were to be brought to trial on rape accusations he faces in Sweden, or for treason charges that have been suggested by U.S. politicians, he would release the encryption key. The tens of thousands of people who have downloaded the file would instantly have access to the names, addresses and details contained in the file.

This is disgusting.

 

[Galteeth]

This is disgusting.

Why?

 

[Fra]

Lets not forget that Assange is now in a desperate situation. Anyone with some ability to project how other people think and act would expect no less than a desperate REaction.

Press anyone into a corner and see what happens. He will take actions that otherwise he would never think of. This is rational indeed.

Rational <> Right, though. To see the rational in something doesn't mean you agree. But it certainly helps analyse the situation in order to for yourself take the right actions.

Edit: Assange is most certainly not afraid to respond to his sex charges in Sweden. This is a peanut in the context. He is afraid that someone will arrest him here and bring it to countries that will do bad things to him. Completely understandable. His actions are again rational, given the situation.

/Fredrik

 

[Newai]

Why?

He's using the classified cables as leverage against the allegations of a sex offense, putting lives at risk for his own purposes.

 

[rootX]

He's using the classified cables as leverage against the allegations of a sex offense, putting lives at risk for his own purposes.

Post #3:

This action was wrong.

But, situation has turned so bad - with paypal canceling their donations, banks freezing their assets, death threats to the founder, arrest seen as politically motivated by wikileaks - I no longer expect any rational response from Wikileaks anymore that is: if they had any little concern about the US security (not diplomatic) before it is gone now. In other words, I would expect more aggressive actions from the organization.

...