News WikiLeaks reveals sites critical to US security

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WikiLeaks has released a sensitive diplomatic cable detailing locations worldwide deemed critical to U.S. national security, including undersea communication lines and suppliers of essential goods. The Pentagon labeled the disclosure as "damaging," arguing it provides valuable information to adversaries. Discussions revolve around the implications of such leaks, with some suggesting they expose vulnerabilities in U.S. military power and provoke a reevaluation of foreign relations. Critics argue that WikiLeaks' actions are irresponsible and could lead to more aggressive behavior from the organization. The debate highlights concerns about the balance between transparency and national security, questioning the motivations behind such disclosures.
  • #51
Jack21222 said:
Assange didn't steal documents, he just spread information in the same way writing a story about a CIA informant's identity would.
The military guy didn't know how to get the documents, he asked for help in doing it, that's how he got reported. The assumpition is that wikileaks told him how to do it.
 
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  • #52
Another assumption is that someone else besides Wikileaks told him how to do it. It works in many ways.
 
  • #53
Mathnomalous said:
Another assumption is that someone else besides Wikileaks told him how to do it. It works in many ways.

Are you going to keep us in suspense?
 
  • #54
russ_watters said:
No, it really doesn't break down that way. You're not grasping the concept of ownership of information/intellectual property. Everything from patents to copy protected CDs work this way. For example copying a music cd and giving the copy to a friend is stealing even though you still retain your original copy and the artist who recorded it still has theirs. I am not claiming Assange can be successfully prosecuted.

Copying a music cd and giving it to a friend is copyright infringement, not theft. There is a real difference in the law. So yes, it really does break down that way. Copyright protection is largely a civil matter, not criminal.
 
  • #55
WhoWee said:
Are you going to keep us in suspense?

Mathnomalous pointed out an unsupported assumption that was about as plausible as the unsupported assumption Evo gave. I don't think there's any reason to feel suspense; I doubt either Evo or Mathnomalous intends to support the assumption they proffered.
 
  • #56
Evo said:
The military guy didn't know how to get the documents, he asked for help in doing it, that's how he got reported. The assumpition is that wikileaks told him how to do it.
Is it known that wikileaks helped him steal the info? I imagine if the government had enough evidence for that, there wouldn't be any trouble getting a warrant for his arrest.
 
  • #57
Jack21222 said:
Copying a music cd and giving it to a friend is copyright infringement, not theft. There is a real difference in the law. So yes, it really does break down that way. Copyright protection is largely a civil matter, not criminal.
No, it's a criminal offense. ICE has shut down 80 websites just recently for criminal copyright violation.
 
  • #58
Gokul43201 said:
Is it known that wikileaks helped him steal the info? I imagine if the government had enough evidence for that, there wouldn't be any trouble getting a warrant for his arrest.
I assume it will take time to build up a case. Maybe they didn't and the guy found another hacker to help him after he contacted wikileaks. I'm not privy to the investigation. All I know for sure is that the hacker he contacted for help turned him in at the time he contacted wikileaks. A very short time frame.
 
  • #59
Jack21222 said:
Copying a music cd and giving it to a friend is copyright infringement, not theft. There is a real difference in the law. So yes, it really does break down that way. Copyright protection is largely a civil matter, not criminal.
Copyright infringement is actually a more direct analogy, so...no, it doesn't break down. I just used physical theft because you seem to reject the concept of stealing information. Now it seems you accept that such things are illegal. You're arguing against your own point.
 
  • #60
Jack21222 said:
Copying a music cd and giving it to a friend is copyright infringement, not theft. There is a real difference in the law. So yes, it really does break down that way. Copyright protection is largely a civil matter, not criminal.

Id strongly suggest not taking legal advice from Jack.
 
  • #61
Evo said:
No, it's a criminal offense. ICE has shut down 80 websites just recently for criminal copyright violation.

It's worth mentioning that this leak is *not* a copyright violation, insofar as the leaked material is the product of US government employees. (Of course they would presumably be in violation of the National Security Act of 1947 and/or EO 13526 and/or the UCMJ.)
 
  • #62
CRGreathouse said:
It's worth mentioning that this leak is *not* a copyright violation, insofar as the leaked material is the product of US government employees. (Of course they would presumably be in violation of the National Security Act of 1947 and/or EO 13526 and/or the UCMJ.)
I think jack21222 knows that now.
 
  • #63
Evo said:
I think jack21222 knows that now.

I still maintain that it's largely civil, not criminal. I've found this website which cites US law, but, I cannot vouch for its accuracy.

http://stason.org/TULARC/business/c...t-infringement-a-crime-or-a-civil-matter.html

However, under certain circumstances, it may also be a federal crime. A
copyright infringement is subject to criminal prosecution if infringement
is willful and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial
gain.

In my opinion, it's FAR more common for copyright violations to NOT be for commercial gain. The millions of people in the United States who have pirated music, movies, or software for personal use have not committed a crime according to that website, because it wasn't for commercial advantage or private financial gain.

Russ's example was copying a CD and giving away one copy for free. This is NOT a crime. If my source is wrong, please post a better source saying so.

Edit: My source is from 16 years ago, but I'm struggling to find more recent, credible answers. It's past midnight, and I have better things to do before bed than parse US code.
 
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  • #64
IANAL
Jack21222 said:
In my opinion, it's FAR more common for copyright violations to NOT be for commercial gain. The millions of people in the United States who have pirated music, movies, or software for personal use have not committed a crime according to that website, because it wasn't for commercial advantage or private financial gain.

Look at §506(a)(1)(B). If you hit a six-month total of $1000 retail value (probably not unreasonable, and extremely easy if they allow double counting -- I don't know the case law here) then it's criminal, not civil.

The penalties are also pretty severe even on the civil side. Statutory damages are between $750 and $30,000 per work. That probably means that one such lawsuit takes all your money.
 
  • #65
Jack21222 said:
I still maintain that it's largely civil, not criminal. I've found this website which cites US law, but, I cannot vouch for its accuracy.

http://stason.org/TULARC/business/c...t-infringement-a-crime-or-a-civil-matter.html



In my opinion, it's FAR more common for copyright violations to NOT be for commercial gain. The millions of people in the United States who have pirated music, movies, or software for personal use have not committed a crime according to that website, because it wasn't for commercial advantage or private financial gain.

Russ's example was copying a CD and giving away one copy for free. This is NOT a crime. If my source is wrong, please post a better source saying so.

Edit: My source is from 16 years ago, but I'm struggling to find more recent, credible answers. It's past midnight, and I have better things to do before bed than parse US code.
<sigh>

Last week, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security seized over 80 websites for alleged copyright and trademark violations. Caught up along with many sites alleged to be selling counterfeit clothing and other products were five entertainment websites, including the popular hip-hop blogs OnSmash.com and dajaz1.com.

All that remains on their homepages is a stern notice from the government threatening steep fines and prison time under federal statutes.
Even uploading something that is copyrighted and allowing downloads is illegal because it denies the owner the profit of a sale.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Music/12/01/homeland.security.rap.blog.ew/index.html?section=cnn_latest

But this is OFF TOPIC. THE END.
 
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  • #66
Newai said:
Eh, a simple note to the Pentagon letting them know about the security flaw might have sufficed.

I suspect the point is to show the world(=the democratic system), that weaknesses. Because the entire world is ultimately the democratic basis.

One of the points of wikileaks (as far as I understand their logic) is that too much secrecy (in particular that countries has governmentms and special forces that excecute actions that are in fact not know to the public) is a democratic problem, because the population will from the point of view of the environment be held responsible for any action executed by secret special forces as well. I personally would not want to be held responsible for stupid things my government does. What I am unaware if, means I don't even have a chance to vote against it.

/Fredrik
 
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  • #67
Fra said:
I suspect the point is to show the world, that weaknesses. Because the entire world is ultimately the democratic basis.

One of the points of wikileaks (as far as I understand their logic) is that too much secrecy (in particular that countries has governmentms and special forces that excecute actions that are in fact not know to the public) is a democratic problem, because the population will from the point of view of the environment be held responsible for any action executed by secret special forces as well. I personally would not want to be held responsible for stupid things my government does. What I am unaware if, means I don't even have a chance to vote against it.

/Fredrik
Well, we know now that was all garbage, his true intent is now known. We've moved past any good intent.
 
  • #68
Evo said:
Well, we know now that was all garbage, his true intent is now known. We've moved past any good intent.

Which is? I you mean to say "damage US", which is somewhat obvious (but he has caused damage also to other countries, so US is not alone), the question is what is his motives for doing that?

Any ideas? That it's just pure evil is something I find utterly unlikely. That he would say be on al quaidas payroll I also find unlikely.

/Fredrik
 
  • #69
Evo said:
Well, we know now that was all garbage, his true intent is now known. We've moved past any good intent.

Whatever Assange's intentions are, they do not change the nature of the information Wikileaks is releasing. Also, it seems some influential people understood Assange's intentions:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/world/24assange.html?_r=2&hp
http://www.slate.com/id/2276857/

Christopher Hitchens said:
All you need to know about Assange is contained in the profile of him by the great John F. Burns and in his shockingly thuggish response to it. The man is plainly a micro-megalomaniac with few if any scruples and an undisguised agenda. As I wrote before, when he says that his aim is "to end two wars," one knows at once what he means by the "ending."

I would like to correct a mistake I made before. I said Assange is Swedish. He is not. He is Australian.
 
  • #70
Fra said:
Which is? I you mean to say "damage US", which is somewhat obvious (but he has caused damage also to other countries, so US is not alone), the question is what is his motives for doing that?

Any ideas? That it's just pure evil is something I find utterly unlikely. That he would say be on al quaidas payroll I also find unlikely.

/Fredrik
The upload this thread is about was done specifically to harm the US. He has now threatened to upload documents that are, in his words, "a thermonuclear device in the information age.” He doesn't care about the harm he does, he now plans to upload all of the unredacted documents with the names and locations of all people. The guy is a scum bag.
 
  • #71
I picture it like this: Yes he is causing damage, but the damange might be directed to an undemocratic and partly corrupt workings of a system. I don't think this refer to the country as such and it's people, it refers to the strategy.

Lets consider the following scenario. A big armoured system A, interacts with it's environment. A has gained confidence and used to using forced to bully development in a certain direction at the expense of others. This creates tension in the environment, enemies are grown. But A knows that it's big enough to handle this. So A's strategy works and is successful.

Until the point when someone reveals that A has a weak point, that can't be tightened with bullets. Then A is forces to revise it's survival strategy. The only way to secure it is to make sense there is no one that wants to hit on the weak point, because they see that they are also dependent on you.

/Fredrik
 
  • #72
Evo said:
The upload this thread is about was done specifically to harm the US. He has now threatened to upload documents that are, in his words, "a thermonuclear device in the information age.” He doesn't care about the harm he does, he now plans to upload all of the unredacted documents with the names and locations of all people. The guy is a scum bag.

Sorry, maybe it's something I missed, is ther a link somewhere?

/Fredrik
 
  • #73
Evo said:
The upload this thread is about was done specifically to harm the US. He has now threatened to upload documents that are, in his words, "a thermonuclear device in the information age.” He doesn't care about the harm he does, he now plans to upload all of the unredacted documents with the names and locations of all people. The guy is a scum bag.

Can you provide specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause?
 
  • #74
Mathnomalous said:
Can you provide specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause?
Read the threads.
 
  • #75
Mathnomalous said:
Can you provide specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause?

Off the top of my head:

  • Releasing names of confidential informants, putting their lives in serious jeopardy and reducing effectiveness of intelligence efforts worldwide.
  • Releasing strategic planning documents w.r.t. troops currently deployed abroad.
 
  • #76
Fra said:
Sorry, maybe it's something I missed, is ther a link somewhere?

/Fredrik
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/assange-threatens-to-release-entire-cache-of-unfiltered-files/article1825922/
 
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  • #77
Mech_Engineer said:
Off the top of my head:

  • Releasing names of confidential informants, putting their lives in serious jeopardy and reducing effectiveness of intelligence efforts worldwide.
  • Releasing strategic planning documents w.r.t. troops currently deployed abroad.

Those are your claims. For all we know, world governments may simply readjust and continue business as usual.
 
  • #78
Mathnomalous said:
Those are your claims. For all we know, world governments may simply readjust and continue business as usual.

You asked for specific examples of possible harm, and I obliged. I'm not sure your reply actually makes any useful point w.r.t. my specific examples however...
 
  • #79
Mech_Engineer said:
You asked for specific examples of possible harm, and I obliged. I'm not sure your reply actually makes any useful point w.r.t. my specific examples however...
Your answer is speculative. It does not refer to actual events.
 
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  • #80
humanino said:
Your answer is speculative. It does not refer to actual events.

So you're looking for historical precedent, as in previously leaked similar documents that caused specific harmful events? That, I don't have on the top of my head, but I will look around.

Edit- it occurs to me that since classified leaked documents are "classified, " I suspect events occurring from their release (without subsequent declassification) would be classified as well. I'm not sure I'll be able to find the specific historical events you seek...

Edit more- I will also point out he asked for "specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause," the "will cause" part being speculative in nature.
 
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  • #82
Evo said:
The upload this thread is about was done specifically to harm the US. He has now threatened to upload documents that are, in his words, "a thermonuclear device in the information age.” He doesn't care about the harm he does, he now plans to upload all of the unredacted documents with the names and locations of all people. The guy is a scum bag.
I think you are neglecting the worst case scenario which is he or one of his aides pass this information to China/Russia/Al-Qeada quietly for big sum of money.
Capturing/killing him or his aides, shutting down wikileaks is a simple minded knee jerk reaction which wouldn't make data disappear. Problem is not him; problem is data is in the hands of people who are not US officials. The US government failed to protect its data; and is trying to pass the blame on people who stole data which is rational and legitimate but that doesn't help undo the mistake. China/Russia/anyone else with people like Assange could also have done this.
 
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  • #83
Mech_Engineer said:
So you're looking for historical precedent, as in previously leaked similar documents that caused specific harmful events?
No. I do not claim to doubt the leaks will be harmful. In fact Assange himself does not reject the harm, he rather claims for a "greater good". Like they say "one does not make an omelette without breaking eggs"... I am asking whether we have already identified victims, or other form of harm.

I did not ask earlier, but if anybody knows of evidence for anything good resulting from the leaks, it would also be interesting to post them
Mech_Engineer said:
Edit- it occurs to me that since classified leaked documents are "classified, " I suspect events occurring from their release (without subsequent declassification) would be classified as well. I'm not sure I'll be able to find the specific historical events you seek...
I had not realized this.

Mech_Engineer said:
Edit more- I will also point out he asked for "specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause," the "will cause" part being speculative in nature.
I noticed the same.
 
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  • #84
Mech_Engineer said:
So you're looking for historical precedent, as in previously leaked similar documents that caused specific harmful events? That, I don't have on the top of my head, but I will look around.

Edit- it occurs to me that since classified leaked documents are "classified, " I suspect events occurring from their release (without subsequent declassification) would be classified as well. I'm not sure I'll be able to find the specific historical events you seek...

Edit more- I will also point out he asked for "specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause," the "will cause" part being speculative in nature.

In other words, any harm that occurs from these releases will probably be kept classified and we may possibly continue living normal lives. Here is an information release that actually caused harm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ems_Dispatch

Wikipedia said:
The Ems Dispatch (French: Dépêche d'Ems, German: Emser Depesche), sometimes called the Ems Telegram, caused France to declare the Franco-Prussian War in July 1870. The actual dispatch was an internal message from the Prussian King's vacationing site to Bismarck in Berlin, reporting demands made by the French ambassador; it was Bismarck's released statement to the press that became known as Ems Dispatch. The name referred to Bad Ems, a resort spa east of Koblenz on the Lahn river, then situated in Hesse-Nassau, a new possession of Prussia.

Here is another classified document leak that caused harm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram

Wikipedia said:
The Zimmermann Telegram (or Zimmermann Note; German: Zimmermann-Depesche; Spanish: Telegrama Zimmermann) was a 1917 diplomatic proposal from the German Empire to Mexico to make war against the United States. The proposal was declined by Mexico, but angered Americans and led in part to the declaration of war in April.

The Zimmermann Telegram was intercepted and decoded by the British cryptographers of Room 40.[2] The revelation of its contents in the American press on March 1 caused public outrage that contributed to the United States' declaration of war against Germany and its allies on April 6.

rootX said:
I think you are neglecting the worst case scenario which is he or one of his aides pass this information to China/Russia/Al-Qeada quietly for big sum of money.

As opposed to those foreign countries waiting for the information to be released for free.
 
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  • #85
Evo said:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/assange-threatens-to-release-entire-cache-of-unfiltered-files/article1825922/

Thanks.

From that information it seems the motive seems to be simply an insurance against responses to the previously released information that means attempting to terminate wikileaks. It seems they have on purpose not published that because the "temporary conflict" that may arise due to revealing it, risk beeing fatal - in accordance with the rationale that the purpose is to strengthen and develop the global democracy - not destroy it.

Somehow this is the only defense they have. My hope is that, development quickly takes the turn so that these overly sensitive documents does not have to be released.

My impression is still that it's not wikileaks goal to release fatallysensitive information. I don't think they will publish this if the threats against wikilekas ang assange is dropped.

I think it's a mistake to try to shutdown wikileaks and Assange. It's not the response I hope for. It's clear however that it's politically incorrect to approve assange, so I fully understand the protests. But I think trying to shutdown and kill this guy is irrational.

/Fredrik
 
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  • #86
Evo said:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/assange-threatens-to-release-entire-cache-of-unfiltered-files/article1825922/
The Globe and Mail said:
Mr. Assange’s lawyer Mark Stephens warned that if Mr. Assange were to be brought to trial on rape accusations he faces in Sweden, or for treason charges that have been suggested by U.S. politicians, he would release the encryption key. The tens of thousands of people who have downloaded the file would instantly have access to the names, addresses and details contained in the file.
This is disgusting.
 
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  • #87
Newai said:
This is disgusting.

Why?
 
  • #88
Lets not forget that Assange is now in a desperate situation. Anyone with some ability to project how other people think and act would expect no less than a desperate REaction.

Press anyone into a corner and see what happens. He will take actions that otherwise he would never think of. This is rational indeed.

Rational <> Right, though. To see the rational in something doesn't mean you agree. But it certainly helps analyse the situation in order to for yourself take the right actions.

Edit: Assange is most certainly not afraid to respond to his sex charges in Sweden. This is a peanut in the context. He is afraid that someone will arrest him here and bring it to countries that will do bad things to him. Completely understandable. His actions are again rational, given the situation.

/Fredrik
 
  • #89
Galteeth said:
Why?
He's using the classified cables as leverage against the allegations of a sex offense, putting lives at risk for his own purposes.
 
  • #90
Newai said:
He's using the classified cables as leverage against the allegations of a sex offense, putting lives at risk for his own purposes.

Post #3:

rootX said:
This action was wrong.

But, situation has turned so bad - with paypal canceling their donations, banks freezing their assets, death threats to the founder, arrest seen as politically motivated by wikileaks - I no longer expect any rational response from Wikileaks anymore that is: if they had any little concern about the US security (not diplomatic) before it is gone now. In other words, I would expect more aggressive actions from the organization.


...
 
  • #91
Newai said:
He's using the classified cables as leverage against the allegations of a sex offense, putting lives at risk for his own purposes.

I'm assuming his position is that the charges are bogus and retaliation for wikileaks.
 
  • #92
Galteeth said:
I'm assuming his position is that the charges are bogus and retaliation for wikileaks.

I have to admit that my expectation is that they ARE likely bogus constructions too.

So does a large portion of the public (not everyone of course). In particular the proven history, that some people do construct "bogus reasons" to justify actions, this sceptsisims is in fact justifed. This is indeed sad, but this is yet just another reason rational reason why information needs to be exposed to the democratic system - hidden strategies threaten democracy. The fact that he is so afraid to answer to his charges of sex charges because he has a justified fear to be abducted or taken away in despite of promisies of the contrary is a severe sign of corruption. When the justice system can 't be trusted to be fair, then it's really bad.

/Fredrik
 
  • #93
Mr. Assange’s lawyer Mark Stephens warned that if Mr. Assange were to be brought to trial on rape accusations he faces in Sweden, or for treason charges that have been suggested by U.S. politicians

Treason? How can the US try an Austrailian for treason? Either that's made up or whoever said it doesn't understand the word.

I've no doubt there is a case he could be done in the US for espionage (which I'm fairly sure carries the same level of penalites as treason), but you can't be a traitor to someone you don't have alleigence to.

You could try the bloke who stole the documents for treason.
 
  • #95
xxChrisxx said:
Treason? How can the US try an Austrailian for treason? Either that's made up or whoever said it doesn't understand the word.

I've no doubt there is a case he could be done in the US for espionage (which I'm fairly sure carries the same level of penalites as treason), but you can't be a traitor to someone you don't have alleigence to.

You could try the bloke who stole the documents for treason.

I'm fairly sure the video of the politician saying it was him saying it fairly tongue and cheek. Treason, espionage, whatever, the idea is that he should be charged for what he did, released secret government documents.

You can point out all the technicalities and morality and freedom of the press issues you want, bottom line is he is an enemy of the united states, released secret documents, and should be treated just as if a Taliban member released secret documents. Just because he did it in a high tech manner and has lots of nice media coverage and tons of stock footage of him doing respectable presentations doesn't change this fact.
 
  • #96
I certainly hope it was tongue in cheek, because a politicain who doesn't understand a word like that kind of worries me a little.

I really don't care what goes on regarding the outcome of this, it's interesting (a bit like a soap opera), but at the end of the day I couldn't give a toss.
 
  • #97
Very interesting indeed.

It will be very interesting to see how this develops further!

/Fredrik
 
  • #98
xxChrisxx said:
I really don't care what goes on regarding the outcome of this, it's interesting (a bit like a soap opera), but at the end of the day I couldn't give a toss.

But a lot of people do care (wherever the symphaty lies) and a lot of people will take actions based on either outcome I am sure.

xxChrisxx said:
it's interesting (a bit like a soap opera)

I think it's better than super bowl :)

/Fredrik
 
  • #99
turbo-1 said:
Money is just markers. Place-makers that allow us to pass "value" around. You know that.

If somebody grabs info that shows that our government is complicit in bribery/illegality, etc, that should be fair game. Daniel Ellsburg was a speed-bump in the path of oligarchy, but I'm glad that he was there.

Ellsburg has commented.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/world/24assange.html?_r=3&hp

"“I’ve been waiting 40 years for someone to disclose information on a scale that might really make a difference,” said Daniel Ellsberg, who exposed a 1,000-page secret study of the Vietnam War in 1971 that became known as the Pentagon Papers.

Mr. Ellsberg said he saw kindred spirits in Mr. Assange and Pfc. Bradley Manning, the 22-year-old former Army intelligence operative under detention in Quantico, Va., suspected of leaking the Iraq and Afghan documents.

“They were willing to go to prison for life, or be executed, to put out this information,” Mr. Ellsberg said. "

I'm not so sure he's correct in his assumption of their willingness to go to prison or be executed though.
 
  • #100
Mathnomalous said:
Can you provide specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause?

The information given out is stuff some non-US intelligence agencies would pay large amounts to try to obtain. The US has also spent large amounts to maintain it classified. See the imbalance?
 

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