Wild dogs howl and house dogs bark

  • #26
9
0
Neoteny appears to be one of the two forms of pedomorphism: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny

The citation for neoteny in the evolution of dog breeds in Wikipedia leads to something by Stephen J. Gould, where I probably saw it at one time.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog#Neoteny_in_the_rapid_evolution_of_diverse_dog_breeds

Whether their rapid evolution is an example of neoteny or progenesis is still an open question for me, at least until I can give the question more consideration, or come across a more detailed explanation. It's certainly interesting. A recent article about how dinosaurs became birds caught my eye in this specific regard: phys.org/news/2012-05-developmental-crucial-evolutionary-shift-dinosaurs.html

"This phenomenon, where a change in the developmental timing of a creature produces morphological changes is called heterochrony, and paedomorphosis is one example of it," Abzhanov explained. "In the case of birds, we can see that the adults of a species look increasingly like the juveniles of their ancestors."​
 
  • #27
418
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I am not allowed yet to put down links. I would if I could. However, I find
your attitude a little offensive. I am not here to do your research for you.
I feel that I just have to provide a few key words to make your research
easier.
Google is available to everybody here. A few keywords are sufficient to find
many articles referring to what is stated.
I'm a scientist and quite frankly I don't have a need for Google except to read my Gmail from this website which rarely happens since I come directly to PhysicsForums. One reason I don't use Wikipedia.org is I've gotten spam from it so I try my best to look for the most current scientific article(s) elsewhere like on my computer or a scientific website. Also, I've often seen people who use Wikipedia pluck only what they think is the best that suites him/her. Furthermore, I prefer the actual article with it's link and usually find that from my computer or directly from a scientific website. I have no need for an encyclopedia = Wikipedia. If you think teachers or scientists where I live or work tell students look for the answer on Wikipedia then you would be wrong.

Have a good day. I'm done with this topic.
 
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  • #28
bobze
Science Advisor
Gold Member
647
18
I'm a scientist and quite frankly I don't have a need for Google except to read my Gmail from this website which rarely happens since I come directly to PhysicsForums. One reason I don't use Wikipedia.org is I've gotten spam from it so I try my best to look for the most current scientific article(s) elsewhere like on my computer or a scientific website. Also, I've often seen people who use Wikipedia pluck only what they think is the best that suites him/her. Furthermore, I prefer the actual article with it's link and usually find that from my computer or directly from a scientific website. I have no need for an encyclopedia = Wikipedia. If you think teachers or scientists where I live or work tell students look for the answer on Wikipedia then you would be wrong.

Have a good day. I'm done with this topic.

Sure Wikipedia isn't appropriate for something like publishing a paper, or a school (though I'd say high school+, I think middle school it should probably be fair game)--But its a great start for the layman of anything and good source for an introduction to a topic.

Its also great for directing laymen to other related topics, they might have been unaware. Scientific literature is for scientists. Its not designed with the laymen (or even other scientists) in mind. Its directed and specific to a very narrow area of scientific interest--And generally that community working on that specific subject is rather small (and tend to be well known to each other).

Its also important to remember that because something is in the scientific literature it isn't "laid in stone" or the "grail". Lots and lots of crappy papers get published and pass-peer review (even in journals like Science and Nature--Remember that whole arsenic thing?). Simply knowing something is published literature doesn't inform one on the topic. One has to take it a step further and use that scientific training of theirs to discriminate whether said publication is saying something significant or not. That is something most laymen are not capable of doing. Which is why for a non-scientist a general link to something like Wikipedia is great. :smile:
 
  • #29
732
3
I made a small mistake. I should have been more specific.
The process that made wolves into dogs is a specific type of
paedomorphosis called progenesis. Progenesis is when there is
an early cessation to somatic development. In other words, the
gonads of the descendent reach sexual maturity at an earlier
stage of development than the gonads of the ancestor. The result
is that certain traits in the juvenile ancestor are retained in the
adult descendent.
For example, the adult descendent may have the same over all shape
and size as the juvenile ancestor. Dogs show progenesis relative to wolves.
This should not be confused with neoteny. Neotony is another form
of paedomorphosis. In neotony, certain features grow at a slower rate in
the descendents then they did with the ancestors. This results in
a descendent where certain other juvenile traits are retained in the
ancestor.
For example, the descendent after neoteny may have a skull which is
disproportionally proportionally large compared to the skull of an
adult ancestor. However, the size of the adult descendent may be as
large as the adult of the ancestor. Humans show neoteny relative to
their primate ancestors.
 
  • #30
732
3
Barking might be more common in juvenile animals though and that would be a good hypothesis. As has been seen in foxes, where neotenous traits were selected through domestication as well.
Dogs appear to be to have evolved from wolves by progenesis, not by neoteny.
Dogs reach sexual maturity quicker than wolves reach sexual maturity. Most of the
juvenile traits of wolves are frozen into the adult dogs by sexual maturity.
Human beings appear to have evolved from apes by neoteny, not progensis.
Human beings reach sexual maturity slower than wolves reach sexual maturity.
The adult human is larger than an adult ape, yet has largely the same shape as a
juvenile ape.
 
  • #31
Ryan_m_b
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
5,844
711
Its also important to remember that because something is in the scientific literature it isn't "laid in stone" or the "grail". Lots and lots of crappy papers get published and pass-peer review (even in journals like Science and Nature--Remember that whole arsenic thing?). Simply knowing something is published literature doesn't inform one on the topic. One has to take it a step further and use that scientific training of theirs to discriminate whether said publication is saying something significant or not. That is something most laymen are not capable of doing. Which is why for a non-scientist a general link to something like Wikipedia is great. :smile:
This is a very important point, the number of papers that I see that are just flat out poor yet published (sometimes in respectable journals) is worrying. It behooves everyone to remember that peer-review is the absolute minimum for credibility, nothing more. The validity of a study should be based on it's methodology and the conclusions drawn from the data, this is a bigger discussion of course but it is very important to keep in mind.

We don't want to perpetuate the idea that published = credible or correct.
 
  • #32
732
3
Why do we hear coyotes and wolves howl or yelp while house dogs more often bark? Does it have something to do with living in a pack vs. living alone?

Also... today when I was on a walk around noon I spotted two separate coyotes (the dog I was walking started barking at the first one which got me thinking about my previous question). I thought wild dogs were nocturnal. Is that incorrect? If it is correct, could their day-time roaming have something to do with the noisy humans keeping them up?

Thanks!
Coyotes are rather flexible with regards to their daily schedule. When I was jogging in New Mexico desert about noon, I would stop and see a coyote looking at me. A few coyotes have recently appeared in Maryland, where I now live. While I never saw any of them directly, I was told that they like twilight and night. They scavenge the garbage. So here, they like the hours before the garbage pick up.
 

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