News Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[Anttech]

Though often used in - indeed, often the basis of - such debates, that tactic is invalid for a debate, practically by definition. Emotions are to be avoided because they get in the way of what should really be guiding our actions: logic/reason. Indeed, acting on emotion is often the underlying problem that starts messes like the Arab/Israel crisis in the first place.

Perhaps we should start a new thread, but anyway. Debating is the means to an end. The end is to convince your *opponent* that your view point is the correct one. Life isn't binary and neither is a debate about the Israel Hezbollah conflict. There is no *logical* 1 or 0 or right or wrong. So to assert that emmotions "get in the way" is a falacy in this context IMHO.

 

[kyleb]

I'd like to point out that Haluz does not say "For every katyusha barrage on Haifa, 10 Dahiya buildings chosen at random will be bombed." He says that 10 Dahiya buildings will be bombed.
It's all in what you want to read: while some would rather read "random buildings," I'd read, "10 buildings for which we have evidence of Hizbullah activity therein."

I read that the targets are optional and destroyed out of a desire for retribution rather than as a necessity.

 

[kyleb]

It's not that they can't work together, it's that they refuse.

When, prior to this current war, did the Lebanese government refuse to cooperate to resolve this problem?

 

[kyleb]

You are understating the Hezbollah violence in an attempt to paint a picture of Israel's response being not worth it in bringing down Hezbollah.

For example, Hezbollah is not only just responsible for 18 civilians dead from the last two weeks. The actual number is closer to 400.

He is acknowledging the fact that Hezbollah was simply looking to capture a few solders so they could exchange them for their own. The civilan deaths are a result of Israel's response to that.

 

[Anttech]

But there are 3k or so UN soldiers there, as well as an enormous Israeli army which would definatily be allies in bringing them down.

I was careful about how I worded that and I was saying that Lebanon most definatily has the cabibility to cooperate in disarming Hezbollah.

It's not that they can't work together, it's that they refuse. In fact they have vowed reverse cooperation. They said they would resist rather than assist Israel if they came in there trying to bring down Hezbollah.

Would you like to shared your sources? Or will you accept that is your oppinion? Regardless I would be interested to know how one would come to such an oppinion

The "3000 UN soliders" are toothless. As a matter of fact its only 2000, and they are a *peace keeping* force. Annan wants to change this, and perhaps he will get his way as the EU steps up to the challange.

Lebanon understand that the militay wing of Hezbollah are a problem. But with the same sentance they understand that Israel doesn't have a right to destroy Beruit and create 500,000 Refugies, as they try to smash hezbollah to the ground. Which as we *should* all know by now doesnt work, by looking at all the evidence of counter terrorism tactics.

And the rain of rockets is not just a "response" to Israeli aggression. Hezbollah started this mess, not Israel. ISRAEL is the ones responding to Hezbollah aggression and not the other way around.

Israel is also the aggressor in this situation. Its aggression is towards the whole of Lebanon in its attempt to smite the few.

 

[Mental Gridlock]

He is acknowledging the fact that Hezbollah was simply looking to capture a few solders so they could exchange them for their own. The civilan deaths are a result of Israel's response to that.

The civilian deaths in Lebanon are a result of Israel's response, coupled with Hezbollah intentionally putting them in danger's way by using them as human shields.

When someone takes a hostage and gets the hostage killed, the hostage taker is at least somewhat responsible.

1) Hezbollah launched an attack to provoke the Israeli army. This was an intentional provocation. Obviously a response is anticipated. HEZBOLLAH started this violence.

2) They not only started the violence to elicit a response, but they also engrained themselves with civilians to purposely see to it that they would die when the Israelis launch their predictable counter attack.

Hezbollah has not just Israeli blood on their hands. Hezbollah has Lebonese blood on their hands too. Yet still the Lebonese support them.

 

[Anttech]

Hezbollah are a Terrorist organisation. Its not the first and it won't be the last. They are using well defined terrorist tactics, of gurrelia warfair of Hit and Run. It still doesn't give the right to Israel to kill so many Lebanesse people, just because they can't figure out who is a Hezbollah soldier and who isnt. Yes sure they are allowed to defend themselfs, but they are creating a massive humaitarian problem, and are (the Israeli's the ones who are pulling the trigger) killing many civilans in the process.

By the way Lebanon is about 5 million or so people, Shi'ites are only 30% of this, and this is where the main support for Hezbollah comes from. I would guess that only a small fraction of the 30% would be supporting Hezbollah out right. So to say that "the Lebonese support them" is off course not true.

 

[Anttech]

In all honesty, from a bigger picture perceptive. If I was Bush I would be raining in Israel a lot quicker than he is doing. Beruit was after the center of Bushes *new* democratic Middle East, the cedar revolution. The Lebanonese arent stupid, they know where all the bombs that are falling on there heads were made. I would bet that the *next* democratic government in Lebanon won't be so US Friendly. The way to beat hezbollah and its like is to rot them from the inside, the Israeli tactic is enforcing it from the inside, creating new soliders to die for their cause. America needs to make new friends in the Middle East, Israel isn't going anywhere, and won't turn Politically against the hand that feeds them. Lebanon needs some friends in its time of need, let's hope the UN can get some teeth and save this country from become radicallised to much through hatred, of abundantly inbalanced actions.

 

[Mental Gridlock]

But there are 3k or so UN soldiers there, as well as an enormous Israeli army which would definatily be allies in bringing them down.

I was careful about how I worded that and I was saying that Lebanon most definatily has the cabibility to cooperate in disarming Hezbollah.

It's not that they can't work together, it's that they refuse. In fact they have vowed reverse cooperation. They said they would resist rather than assist Israel if they came in there trying to bring down Hezbollah.

Would you like to shared your sources? Or will you accept that is your oppinion? Regardless I would be interested to know how one would come to such an oppinion

"We will fight terror wherever it is, because if we do not fight it, it will fight us," Halutz said at a news conference in Tel Aviv.

But Lebanon's defense minister said his troops, who have been neutral in the 10-day-old war, will fight the Israelis.

"The Lebanese army will resist and defend the country and prove that it is an army worthy of respect," Elias Murr said.

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/israelis_look_enemy_in_eye_worldnews_uri_dan__with_post_wire_services.htm

So if Israel would like to disarm Hezbollah (because Lebanon won't/can't) then Lebanon will fight against them. How's that for cooperation?

 

[Anttech]

But Lebanon's defense minister said his troops, who have been neutral in the 10-day-old war, will fight the Israelis.

"The Lebanese army will resist and defend the country and prove that it is an army worthy of respect," Elias Murr said.

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews...e_services.htm

So if Israel would like to disarm Hezbollah (because Lebanon won't/can't) then Lebanon will fight against them. How's that for cooperation?

And to put that quote in its proper context he said that in responce to Israeli's threat of a large scale invasion. Remember its *ok* to defend yourself and your own country. Isnt it?

 

[Yonoz]

He is acknowledging the fact that Hezbollah was simply looking to capture a few solders so they could exchange them for their own. The civilan deaths are a result of Israel's response to that.

Not true. the kidnapping was carried out during a barrage of mortars and rockets on population centres and military bases.

 

[Yonoz]

Israel is also the aggressor in this situation. Its aggression is towards the whole of Lebanon in its attempt to smite the few.

Israel is protecting its civilians. I fail to see how this can be viewed as aggression.

 

[MeJennifer]

I fail to see how this can be viewed as aggression.

Well I do not.
And we have the right to our views right?

Attacking a civilian population is crystal clear agression in my views.

 

[Anttech]

Not true. the kidnapping was carried out during a barrage of mortars and rockets on population centres and military bases.

Sure that was the means to capture the soliders, so they could exchange them for some of there own soliders, in what Hezbollah believe to be their land.

The civilian deaths in Lebanon are a result of Israel's response, coupled with Hezbollah intentionally putting them in danger's way by using them as human shields.

When someone takes a hostage and gets the hostage killed, the hostage taker is at least somewhat responsible.

Seems Israel is doing this exact thing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5212870.stm

The Israeli army has been accused of using Palestinian civilians as human shields in an operation in northern Gaza.

According to the Israeli human rights group, B'tselem, six civilians including two minors were subjected to the illegal tactic during an incursion into the town of Beit Hanoun last week.

 

[Yonoz]

Hezbollah are a Terrorist organisation. Its not the first and it won't be the last. They are using well defined terrorist tactics, of gurrelia warfair of Hit and Run. It still doesn't give the right to Israel to kill so many Lebanesse people, just because they can't figure out who is a Hezbollah soldier and who isnt. Yes sure they are allowed to defend themselfs, but they are creating a massive humaitarian problem, and are (the Israeli's the ones who are pulling the trigger) killing many civilans in the process.

However harsh the situation in Lebanon may be, Israeli civilians are also suffering and the Israeli leadership is commited to their security and safety first and foremost. No country can allow a terrorist organisation to affect its civilians to such an extent.
Not one of the critics here has yet presented a realistic alternative course of action.
The fact that Hizbullah is not the first nor the last terrorist organisation to use these well defined tactics does not affect Israel's duty to its citizens.

 

[fargoth]

just out of curiosity - has anyone changed his mind\got a new perspective out of this debate?

i don't see an end to this thread, because no one seems to convince the other... you all respond to each other, but the same arguments and answers are being posted over and over again.


and only because this one hasn't been posted yet, i'll add a quote for anttech:

DUBAI: Lebanon’s army is ready to defend the country against any land invasion by Israel, which has committed “massacres” in the Arab country, Lebanon’s defence minister told Al Arabiya television on Friday.

“There is national unity in the army. Christians, Shi’ites, Sunnis and Druze are all waiting for the hour Israel enters Lebanon from the ground, so they can teach it a lesson in return for the massacres they committed by air on innocent civilians, the army and infrastructure,” Elias al-Murr said.

“We know our capabilities and we know that we are not of the size of the Israeli army in order to defeat them, but we are standing on our land and in our trenches to defend our country.”

Israel warned Lebanese civilians to leave border villages on Friday and called up thousands of reserves in a possible prelude to a ground offensive that would expand its 10-day campaign against Hizbollah.

The offensive has killed more than 300 people, mainly civilians, and displaced half-a-million. Hizbollah has fired more than 900 missiles into Israel, killing 15 Israeli civilians. Nineteen Israeli soldiers have also been killed.

Asked if the Lebanese army would fight alongside Hizbollah, Mr Murr said: “We will not take part with anyone to defend Lebanon. Our constitutional duty is to defend Lebanon as a Lebanese army. This is our role.”

“But for the resistance to enter the army and fight alongside the army is not an option, because the army can’t fight like the resistance, nor can the resistance fight like the army,” he said.

The minister said Israeli attacks had not weakened the capabilities of the guerrilla group. Hizbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said on Thursday the group’s leadership structure was intact.

taken from http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1790048.cms"
see? lebanon doesn't want help in disarming hizbullah - it doesn't want "the resistance" disarmed.
Lebanon wants to keep hizbullah as "resistance" because this way they can attack israel without taking responsibility for it.

with all that said, i think this shall be my last post on this thread, because it is going nowhere.

 

[Yonoz]

Well I do not.
And we have the right to our views right?

Attacking a civilian population is crystal clear agression in my views.

The only one attacking a civilian population is Hizbullah.

 

[mbrmbrg]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrmbrg
I'd like to point out that Haluz does not say "For every katyusha barrage on Haifa, 10 Dahiya buildings chosen at random will be bombed." He says that 10 Dahiya buildings will be bombed.
It's all in what you want to read: while some would rather read "random buildings," I'd read, "10 buildings for which we have evidence of Hizbullah activity therein."

I read that the targets are optional and destroyed out of a desire for retribution rather than as a necessity.

Could you bring your source for that?

 

[Cyrus]

just out of curiosity - has anyone changed his mind\got a new perspective out of this debate?

i don't see an end to this thread, because no one seems to convince the other... you all respond to each other, but the same arguments and answers are being posted over and over again.


and only because this one hasn't been posted yet, i'll add a quote for anttech:

taken from http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1790048.cms"
see? lebanon doesn't want help in disarming hizbullah - it doesn't want "the resistance" disarmed.
Lebanon wants to keep hizbullah as "resistance" because this way they can attack israel without taking responsibility for it.

with all that said, i think this shall be my last post on this thread, because it is going nowhere.

Thanks for posting, goodbye.

 

[fargoth]

Thanks for posting, goodbye.

you're a very nice troll

 

[Yonoz]

Sure that was the means to capture the soliders

So what? Hizbullah's firing on civilians, for whatever purpose, is still inexcusable and forces the Israeli government and military to secure its inhabitants.

so they could exchange them for some of there own soliders, in what Hezbollah believe to be their land.

There are no Hizbullah "soldiers" in Israel. In fact, there are no Hizbullah soldiers at all, seeing as they are a terrorist organisation, not a national military. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/25/world/main1075642.shtml" half a year ago. The soldiers were kidnapped on the Israeli side of the international border set by the UN to which Israel has fully withdrawn.

Seems Israel is doing this exact thing

Why don't you view these reports with the at least the same degree of doubt that you use when assessing Israel's motives for attacking Hizbullah.

 

[Anttech]

see? lebanon doesn't want help in disarming hizbullah - it doesn't want "the resistance" disarmed.

Selective reading? or Interpreting what he said as you want?

Asked if the Lebanese army would fight alongside Hizbollah, Mr Murr said: “We will not take part with anyone to defend Lebanon. Our constitutional duty is to defend Lebanon as a Lebanese army. This is our role.”

“But for the resistance to enter the army and fight alongside the army is not an option, because the army can’t fight like the resistance, nor can the resistance fight like the army,” he said.

The Resistance, if Israel bring massive ground troops into Lebanon will not be part of the army, because an army can't fight like a resistance movement. Its very logical really.

Lebanon of course wants Hizbollah disarmed, but they can't do it them selfs. Read up on Lebanons history and the last time the different sects of Lebanon fought one an other, you will see it was a bloody cival war.

 

[Anttech]

So what? Hizbullah's firing on civilians, for whatever purpose, is still inexcusable and forces the Israeli government and military to secure its inhabitants.

By bombing Beruit, when we all know Hezbollah is based in the south of Lebanon, why didnt the Israeli's send massive amount of its American Made Tanks to the Border and fight Hezbollah rather than punish the whole of Lebanon.

Why don't you view these reports with the at least the same degree of doubt that you use when assessing Israel's motives for attacking Hizbullah.

That was taken from the BBC www site, who to my knowledge don't hold any grudge against Israel. In fact it is backed up with pictures and a ISRAELI human rights watchdog!

 

[Yonoz]

Lebanon understand that the militay wing of Hezbollah are a problem. But with the same sentance they understand that Israel doesn't have a right to destroy Beruit and create 500,000 Refugies, as they try to smash hezbollah to the ground. Which as we *should* all know by now doesnt work, by looking at all the evidence of counter terrorism tactics.

Israel is not trying to smash Hizbullah to the ground. It is trying to remove the threat to its civilians and return the kidnapped soldiers. Hizbullah can still exist as a political power, as long as it's disarmed.

 

[Anttech]

Israel is not trying to smash Hizbullah to the ground. It is trying to remove the threat to its civilians and return the kidnapped soldiers. Hizbullah can still exist as a political power, as long as it's disarmed.

I find that very hard to believe considering Hezbullah, believes that Israel can exsist as long as it pulls out of land that it occupies in Lebanon, and it free's Hezbullah *soliders* That was there demands if I remember correctly

Sounds like that would have been a better solution than the 500,000 displaced civilians and 500 odd civilians and military personelle that have been killed on both sides so far. And may I add, little damage to Hezbollah, with probably more recruits than ever.

Look the only way to solve this is to spread the wealth, and for the international community to engage more on the ground.

 

[Yonoz]

Lebanon of course wants Hizbollah disarmed, but they can't do it them selfs.

"of course"? You doubt everything Israel does but it's a matter "of course" that Lebanon wants Hizbullah disarmed?
If the Lebanese truly wanted to disarm Hizbullah they would have no problem, especially if they showed the resolve they show in statements about fighting the IDF.

Read up on Lebanons history and the last time the different sects of Lebanon fought one an other, you will see it was a bloody cival war.

Of course no one cared because it was Arabs doing the killing. Anyway, why should Israeli civilians pay the price?

 

[Anttech]

"of course"? You doubt everything Israel does but it's a matter "of course" that Lebanon wants Hizbullah disarmed?
If the Lebanese truly wanted to disarm Hizbullah they would have no problem, especially if they showed the resolve they show in statements about fighting the IDF.

Considering that Lebanon has been focusing on improving its ecconomy not its Army, something that a country has to do when its left in tatters, I doubt that the central government of Lebanon could disarm Hezbollah. Its analgous of a little child trying to take candy from a grown man.

Of course no one cared because it was Arabs doing the killing. Anyway, why should Israeli civilians pay the price?

Considering Israeli's are Arabs (unless because the majority of the population came from elsewhere you don't deem yourself this)I find that remark a little of base no? Anyway I care, and would prefer that Lebanon was allowed to get back on its feet and become a beatiful democratic secular and multicultural as it can be! It needs help from the international community, it doesn't need to be smashed up into little bits (AGAIN).

AND what's more its in your interests to have a happy neighbour, isn't it?

 

[slugcountry]

Of course no one cared because it was Arabs doing the killing.

.................

 

[Yonoz]

By bombing Beruit, when we all know Hezbollah is based in the south of Lebanon

How do "we all know" this? Have you researched Hizbullah? Obviously you haven't because it's plain false.

why didnt the Israeli's send massive amount of its American Made Tanks to the Border and fight Hezbollah rather than punish the whole of Lebanon.

Leave the operational planning to professionals. Hizbullah have only a fraction of their forces on the border, and those forces moved into population centers before the kidnapping. The rockets are fired into Israel from locations mainly in and around Tyre.Tanks can't destroy rocket launchers dozens of kilometers away, which is why aircraft are doing it.
Israel makes its own tanks.

That was taken from the BBC www site, who to my knowledge don't hold any grudge against Israel. In fact it is backed up with pictures and a ISRAELI human rights watchdog!

I find the BBC can be very biased sometimes. Simply because the BBC quoted some Palestinians doesn't mean they've verified their claims. The only photo I see is the one showing a chaffed arm. Using civilians as human shield is against Israeli law and IDF commands, and the claims are being investigated. It certainly isn't a strategy as in the case of Hizbullah.

 

[Anttech]

Yonzo, we both know (I hope) that Lebanon isn't your *real* enemy its Iran and Syria. A strong and happy Lebanon would help you, not hinder you.

Anyway, its late I am going to bed.

Take care my Israeli friend!