News Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I'm sure you agree that Israel has the right to "smash Hezbollah to the ground"... or at least to strike at its capability to terrorize Israel. Upon what grounds do you deny them that right?
.

It has the right to attack Hezbollah, but as has been mentioned having a 10 to 1 kill ratio(civillian to Hezbollah) Has upset a lot of people including Israelis who have turned out to protest the level of violence. Dya think terrorism is defeated by violence? Or have you seen like us Brits what stamping on terrorists does to the situation?

Israel has lost any moral highground it had in this situation and believe me, I was of the opinion that at least Israel units didn't run into packed nightclubs and blow themselves up, target civillians, at least it had made efforts to offer peace in the past , now I'm thinking it took a situation that was about two soldiers and turned it into an excuse to indiscriminately ruin a countries recovery and kill 380(forget how many it is now) Civillians and further alienate arab countries for years to come? as well as turn the west(minus big brother) Against it. If you ask me it looks like Hezbollah has the upper hand at the moment anyway if you're looking at intangibles.

Using emotion has nothing to do with logical fallacy(if your doing that your not using it properly) E.g if I say my entire familly was killed in such and such and therefore I know first hand the suffering going on at the moment, this is why it is remarkable that I still feel there could be peace because argument x, how is this logical fallacy? How is giving gravitas to an argument not a valid tool?

But there would be more progress. I'd prefer dry progress than... um... non-dry stagnation. If memory serves, I thought the thread was progressing rather nicely until "normal discussion practices" entered the fray, and have since felt the thread has slowed way down.

A year ago, a thread like this would have gone essentially nowhere, because all shreds of rational argument would be lost amongst the "normal discussion practices"

I don't think we're on the same page at all, I'm not talking about ranting or slinging useless trite phraseology around in anger, I'm talking about mixing emotive language into your argument, like I think encouraging hatred from Arabs is pointless. I'd point point out some passages where this is cleverly done, or where it the argument is stale and emotionless, but It might be considered insulting. Suffice to say the level of emotion has not diminished since the start, I think your referring to something else when you disparrage argument, if you've ever discussed anything in public you must know how effective your tone of voice is in conveying meaning, there are people who can do it with inflection and there are people who can do it with writting, I'm not one of them I have no real literary talent, but some people are masters of using clever argument mixed with emotive phrasing to really hammer home their points. Like I say it's 40% of the art of convincing argument at least from my experience. People like content but they like something they can empathise or feel too.

Someone once said someone won't remember what you said or what you did but they will remember how you made them feel. I forget who and they said it better

 

[Yonoz]

The Syrian troops just left 12 months ago. Thanks to the international community.

Israel removed thousands of families from their homes despite violent resistance and major civil disorder. The Gaza pullout was completed less than 12 months from the decision to carry it out. A large number of these families lived in tents until last week. Their property is baking inside containers stored in giant makeshift yards. They've lost their homes, workplaces, businesses - entire communities, broken and spread out in temporary solutions, doing the beaurocracy limbo with what savings they have. The Israeli public supported this move, and its government executed it with unbreakable resolve.
Restoring the Lebanese government's control over south Lebanon does not require an air force, a navy, or shiny new APC's. All it takes is motivation. If the Lebanese government is not motivated enough to assert its duties towards the Lebanese people, Israel is not automatically indebted with that duty. Had the Lebanese done the smallest step towards complying with UNSC resolution 1559 I guarantee you the Israeli leadership would not have responded so harshly. We are tired of being the grown-up.
There are some basic things you would expect to be done in the first 12 months. Discussions in the parliament. Policy declarations by the government. Mediation. Nothing was done and the expressed policy was one of complicity. Hizbullah is a coalition partner, they have a minister in the government. They are governing some of the country, completely challenged.
There is only so much we can take. Hizbullah poses a serious risk to Israeli civilians and it is our government's responsibility to protect them, even if it costs our nation a grave price. It's a shame anyone is suffering, including the Lebanese people, but the situation requires it.

 

[mbrmbrg]

‘for every Katyusha barrage on Haifa, 10 Dahiya buildings will be bombed’

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retribution" .

Right, now we're back where we started. "for e/ katyusha barrage on haifa, [there will be retribution]," correct?

Your link gives 2 definitions for retribution:
1. Something justly deserved, recompense
2. Something given or demanded in repayment, especially punishment.

Neither denote if the buildings to be targeted are suspicious in their own right, though def#1 connotes that they are, and def#2 connotes that they are not.

Still all in how you want to read it.

 

[kyleb]

Look down the page a bit for the definition titled "Main Entry."

 

[Yonoz]

Here's an article about Israel's most prominent Arab affairs correspondent, Zvi Yehezkeli: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742277.html" [sic].

He was born in 1970. His father emigrated as a one-year-old from Iraq; his mother was born en route from Kurdistan to Israel. He says he was not the greatest student. In the army he served in an infantry unit and after his discharge he traveled abroad for six years and worked as a security guard at embassies. Upon his return, he felt an urge to take up Middle East studies. He did his undergraduate degree in that subject and in communications. His master's thesis was based on trips to the territories "with a backpack on my back, just like I did abroad." After that he was Army Radio's Palestinian affairs correspondent, worked for a while at Channel 1's "Yoman" and from there arrived at Channel 10.

On the show, "London and Kirschenbaum" he has a daily spot that is also broadcast during these days of fighting and covers the Arab world from diverse angles. "From the gyms in Dubai to the ringtones in mosques in Damascus and single women in Saudi Arabia," he says and quickly explains: "It's just as important to show the faces behind Assad or Mubarak. I say, 'these are people just like you. Let's take a look at them.' We have prompted a revolution in this regard."

 

[Bystander]

(snip)Dya think terrorism is defeated by violence? Or have you seen like us Brits what stamping on terrorists does to the situation?(snip)

Settles it right down --- you "Brits" hanged 400 Thugs, imprisoned another 4000, and killed a few hundred to a thousand in straight up fighting in India. That settled that. Same approach works today --- you run into a "Charles Manson" type, string 'im up rather than feeding him on the taxpayers' money, and civilized behavior becomes preferable to infantile temper tantrums.

 

[Anttech]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5217176.stm
UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.

The post was hit by a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling, diplomats familiar with the probe say.
The four unarmed UN observers from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, died after their UN post in the town of Khiam was hit by an Israeli air strike on Tuesday.

The UN report says each time the UN contacted Israeli forces, they were assured the firing would stop.

A senior Irish soldier working for the UN forces had warned the Israelis six times that their bombardment was endangering the lives of UN staff, Ireland's foreign ministry said.

Settles it right down --- you "Brits" hanged 400 Thugs, imprisoned another 4000, and killed a few hundred to a thousand in straight up fighting in India. That settled that. Same approach works today

Was that not in the Victorian ages? Schrodinger's Dog was referring to the IRA who the English formed a peace with, who incidentally were funded by US Citizen.

 

[mbrmbrg]

Was that not in the Victorian ages? Schrodinger's Dog was referring to the IRA who the English formed a peace with, who incidentally were funded by US Citizen.

Can you explain the essential difference between dealing with Indian terrorists in the Victorian era and dealing with the IRA a few years ago?
Why should Hezbollah vs Israel be compared to IRA vs Great Britain rather than Indian terrorists vs Great Britain?

 

[mbrmbrg]

I'd like to point out that Haluz does not say "For every katyusha barrage on Haifa, 10 Dahiya buildings chosen at random will be bombed." He says that 10 Dahiya buildings will be bombed.
It's all in what you want to read: while some would rather read "random buildings," I'd read, "10 buildings for which we have evidence of Hizbullah activity therein."

I read that the targets are optional and destroyed out of a desire for retribution rather than as a necessity.

Beg your pardon, you're correct on the definition of retribution, but above is where "retribution" came up in the first place. Your reading vs my reading. I think this sub-debate is just stating opinion at this point. Agree to disagree?
(and sorry for wasting your time quibbling over retribution)

 

[kyleb]

You didn't quote my reading there, you quoted where you made your own up and tried to pass it off as mine.

 

[Anttech]

Can you explain the essential difference between dealing with Indian terrorists in the Victorian era and dealing with the IRA a few years ago?

If I must

Essentially the difference is about 100 years.

 

[edward]

I can not accept that the bombing of the UN outpost was an unfortunate accident. That post had been in Southern Lebanon since 1978 and the blue flag was flying.(CNN this morning) This reminds me of the Israeli attack on the U.S. ship Liberty in 1968. The ship was a spy ship operated by the NSA. Why Israel bombed and straffed the Liberty was never really disclosed.

In this case Israel had recently requested that the USA send them preciscion guided munitions. The bombing of the UN outpost may have been a little reminder to speed up the delivery.

 

[Yonoz]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280038,00.html" by Sever Plocker, a traditionally left wing news editor.

 

[edward]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280038,00.html" by Sever Plocker, a traditionally left wing news editor.

Is this supposed to be the excuse for everything??
http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.pdf

 

[Yonoz]

Is this supposed to be the excuse for everything??

Did I say it was an excuse for anything? What happened to "other side of the coin"? What happened to "take X with a grain of salt"?

 

[edward]

Did I say it was an excuse for anything? What happened to "other side of the coin"? What happened to "take X with a grain of salt"?

OK I see your point, but did you ever stop to think that you may be creating more terrorists than you are killing by using Lebanon as you're punching bag?

 

[Yonoz]

OK I see your point, but did you ever stop to think that you may be creating more terrorists than you are killing by using Lebanon as you're punching bag?

No one is using Lebanon as their punching bag. More than 1400 rockets have landed in Israel so far, not counting mortar shells. That is a clear threat to Israeli civilians. These weapons and their operators are hiding inside a civilian population. Israel is forced to defend its citizens, even at the price of raising anger.
BTW I suggest you look at the article about Zvi Yehezkeli, I admire the man. Israelis are not blind to the matters in Lebanon.

 

[slugcountry]

Nor is Lebanon blind to the matters of Israel - has it ever occurred to you that an invasion and world-wide attention is exactly what hizbollah was after?

 

[Yonoz]

Nor is Lebanon blind to the matters of Israel - has it ever occurred to you that an invasion and world-wide attention is exactly what hizbollah was after?

Even so should we just sit while our cities are being attacked? It seems to elude many people that Israel is being attacked here in the most vile way. I know of no country that would allow that to continue.

 

[Anttech]

Even so should we just sit while our cities are being attacked?

Nope but cutting your own nose off to spite your face isn't going to help either. Which is what you are doing.

 

[Yonoz]

Nope but cutting your own nose off to spite your face isn't going to help either. Which is what you are doing.

Spare the obscure proverbs. Can you offer an alternative way of protecting Israeli civilians?

 

[kyleb]

A practical example would be; the Israelis who go into rebuild the houses of Palestinians don't suffer the same hostilities faced by the ones who tear the down.

 

[Yonoz]

Let's not confuse Lebanon and the occupied territories - it's nothing short of ignorance. My question still stands - can anyone offer an alternative way for the Israeli leadership to protect its civilians?

 

[Anttech]

Its all inter-related, and to dismiss the problems in the occupied territories as nothing to do with the current campaign would be ignorant

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Let's not confuse Lebanon and the occupied territories - it's nothing short of ignorance. My question still stands - can anyone offer an alternative way for the Israeli leadership to protect its civilians?

Long term peace, I thought I mentioned that already? The only real solution.

 

[Yonoz]

Its all inter-related, and to dismiss the problems in the occupied territories as nothing to do with the current campaign would be ignorant

Still, I asked what alternatives there are for Israel to protect its civilians from the rockets fired out of Lebanon, and was met with not-so-much-as-an-answer-but-some-sort-of-unrelated-example(?) regarding the rebuilding of Palestinian houses, which only occurred in Gaza and the West Bank.
Perhaps you have a real answer to my question.

 

[kyleb]

Let's not confuse Lebanon and the occupied territories - it's nothing short of ignorance.

You know those occupied territories have cultural and religious significance all Muslims, as we already agreed upon here. I'm also sure you know Hezbollah is looking to exchange your solders for Palestinian prisoners along with their own people. So please don't try to play this of as me being ignorant, here as that is most certainly not the case; and feigning ignorance to claim otherwise only serves to ignore my point.

My question still stands - can anyone offer an alternative way for the Israeli leadership to protect its civilians?

And my answer still stands as a practical example. In general terms I'll defer to a man much wiser than myself, Ramana Maharshi, who expanded upon an ancient Buddhist teaching with his statement; "Wanting to transform the world without discovering one's true self is like trying to cover the whole world with leather to avoid the pain of walking on stones and thorns. It is much simpler to wear shoes."

 

[Anttech]

Yonzo,

Perhaps you would like to re-read some of my post in this thread. I have given alternatives already.

Let me outline them again.

International Peace Keeping force in South Lebanon, with teeth, and the remit of bolstering up the Lebanon Governments control.

Stop all hostilities, and stop demanding the impossible right now, ie Hezbollah to disarm.

If Hostilities have to continue, appropriate human rights, must be followed, and civilians should not be targeted, and UN convoys need to not be bombed and allowed to help the 600,000 refugees and displaced civilians.

Appropriate NEUTRAL mediator between Israel and Palistein for future pull out of occupied territories.

Less lopsided politics and help from USA.

 

[Yonoz]

Yonzo,

Perhaps you would like to re-read some of my post in this thread. I have given alternatives already.

Let me outline them again.

International Peace Keeping force in South Lebanon, with teeth, and the remit of bolstering up the Lebanon Governments control.

So far there hasn't been a single agreement on such a force - no one is willing to put their troops in Lebanon - and this is during hostilities, when it's on the top of everyone's priorities! I've shown you Israel's appeals to the UN and the weak response they recieved. The ball was in the UN and Lebanon's court, and they dropped it.

Stop all hostilities, and stop demanding the impossible right now, ie Hezbollah to disarm.

Our civilians are being attacked. Do you really expect us not to defend ourselves?! You are so "understanding" to terrorists and radicals but you do not recognise this basic right of self-defence? Get some sense man, this isn't a random shooting, it's not a wave of suicide attacks. It's been two weeks, and normal life in the north of Israel is paralyzed. More than a third of the population moved away. The rest are in shelters. Businesses are closed. Public transport is intermittent. Home carers for the elderly don't show up. There aren't enough firefighters to deal with all the fires, they're only concentrating on preventing the fires from reaching population centres. No country in the world would allow this to happen.

If Hostilities have to continue, appropriate human rights, must be followed, and civilians should not be targeted, and UN convoys need to not be bombed and allowed to help the 600,000 refugees and displaced civilians.

Everything is done in accordance with international law. Civilians aren't targetted. UN convoys have been operating for over a week now. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is coordinating the relief effort with the military. One of history's largest naval evacuations took place without a hitch, in full coordination with the Navy. A few Lebanese wounded are treated in Israeli hospitals. A landing strip in Beirut has been authorized for humanitarian purposes, and the Jordanian Military used it to deploy a mobile hospital. Israel has no interest in harming the Lebanese people.

Appropriate NEUTRAL mediator between Israel and Palistein for future pull out of occupied territories.

The government has declared and began legislation for the second phase of the disengagement plan. There is mediation between Israel and the Hamas leadership regarding the cessation of hostilites in the Gaza strip and the return of kidnapped soldier.

Less lopsided politics and help from USA.

I'm not familiar with the term "lopsided politics", but it sounds like catch-phrase. Let's try and stick to the specifics. I don't see how accepting less help from the USA is beneficial to Israel. Why not just say "stop buying weapons" or "don't use shelters so you get a higher civilian death count". Makes just as much sense.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Still, I asked what alternatives there are for Israel to protect its civilians from the rockets fired out of Lebanon, and was met with not-so-much-as-an-answer-but-some-sort-of-unrelated-example(?) regarding the rebuilding of Palestinian houses, which only occurred in Gaza and the West Bank.
Perhaps you have a real answer to my question.

Sorry I had 30 seconds to answer you, I knew what you meant and was being flippant. honestly no offence intended. I was going to put a smilee on it but I never got time, very busy ATM.

I think people have already mentioned that you should have workjed with the Lebanese government from the start, I also think something as small fry as this should not of been used as an excuse to tackle Hezbollah (hezbollah needs a carefully considered strategy IMO, not a kneejerk over reaction) You mentioned that you can't always excpected to be the grown up, I disagree in the situation you are in that's what you should be trying to uphold in every situation(up 'til now the wolrd has seen /Israel as the more moderate and "grown" up party, this works in your favour in diplomatic meetings,I tihnk it's wise to always appear to be thoughtful in your approach to situations, look what happens when you don't.

Initial solution, use your experienced intelligence gorups to locate the soldiers, most likely out come to that was they are going to be killed before you find them, and creating a war in Lebanon is not exactly going to make them easy to find, if you are at least pretending what this is about you blew it by making there recovery almost impossible.

OK as Kofi Anan said in his adress to the security councli - I'm afraid I'm going to have to find this later - but he mentioned that he saw this as an excuse used by Israel to take out Hezbollah. he condemened Hezbollah straight off the bat though, he advised working towards a cease fire and condemend Israel for the civillian caualties whilst acknowledging Israels right to tackle Hezbolah, he was carefull to remain impartial, with this in mind, it might of been wise after the initial phase mentioned above to also seek out the UN and or the US and ask if it would be possible to insert a security force in the area with Israeli cooperation, in a joint land offensive to secure the area, possibly with the Help of the Labenese government also, with US logistics and methods the civillian casualties would have been much less(they are well aware of how much grief hitting hospitals etc can bring there way) Also the west would have seen a will to resolve this situation in a "diplomatic" manner at least in the planning stages. Not being an expert I have no idea if this would have been viable, but it sounds reasonable. we're all armchair generalling this one :)