News Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[Anttech]

It certainly isn't a strategy as in the case of Hizbullah.

Maybe not, but those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, as the saying goes.

 

[Anttech]

How do "we all know" this? Have you researched Hizbullah? Obviously you haven't because it's plain false.

Well, every heard of the term, "state within a state" It is referring to the grip that Hezbollah has on the south of Lebanon, and yes I have read up on them!

 

[Cyrus]

you're a very nice troll

Well, maybe you are not getting anything out of the discussion, but I am. If you don't want to participate, then you can leave. I think this thread still has plenty of places to go, and I am enjoying it very much. There was no need to trash this thread with your comments Fargoth. As I said, goodbye.

 

[Yonoz]

I find that very hard to believe considering Hezbullah, believes that Israel can exsist as long as it pulls out of land that it occupies in Lebanon, and it free's Hezbullah *soliders* That was there demands if I remember correctly

Hizbullah does not recognise Israel's right to exist and calls for Israel's destruction. Israel does not occupy one inch of Lebanese soil. Hizbullah demands the release of hundreds of prisoners including convicted murderers, including http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A2740-2003May17":

As police began to arrive, the terrorists took Danny and Einat down to the beach. There, according to eyewitnesses, one of them shot Danny in front of Einat so that his death would be the last sight she would ever see. Then he smashed my little girl's skull in against a rock with his rifle butt. That terrorist was Samir Kuntar.

Your use of the term soldiers in reference to Hizbullah is offending me, as I think it would anyone who was ever a soldier. There are plenty of other undisputed terms you can use.

Sounds like that would have been a better solution than the 500,000 displaced civilians and 500 odd civilians and military personelle that have been killed on both sides so far. And may I add, little damage to Hezbollah, with probably more recruits than ever.

No it would not be a better solution since whenever it was done before it made Hizbullah extremely popular and simply encouraged them to kidnap more troops and attack Israeli civilians as you can see.

Look the only way to solve this is to spread the wealth, and for the international community to engage more on the ground.

What do you mean by "spread the wealth"?

 

[Yonoz]

Considering that Lebanon has been focusing on improving its ecconomy not its Army, something that a country has to do when its left in tatters, I doubt that the central government of Lebanon could disarm Hezbollah. Its analgous of a little child trying to take candy from a grown man.

Can you support this speculation?

Considering Israeli's are Arabs (unless because the majority of the population came from elsewhere you don't deem yourself this)I find that remark a little of base no?

Let's not get back into the whole descent debate. You know what I'm talking about.

Anyway I care, and would prefer that Lebanon was allowed to get back on its feet and become a beatiful democratic secular and multicultural as it can be!

Not at the price of Israeli lives.

It needs help from the international community, it doesn't need to be smashed up into little bits (AGAIN).

Please stop using these hysterical superlatives. Lebanon is quite intact.

AND what's more its in your interests to have a happy neighbour, isn't it?

Of course it is, and it's what Israel tried to do last November when it returned the bodies of Hizbullah guerillas. Of course Israel can't allow it's citizens to be attacked.

 

[Yonoz]

Yonzo, we both know (I hope) that Lebanon isn't your *real* enemy its Iran and Syria. A strong and happy Lebanon would help you, not hinder you.

Absolutely. The price the Lebanese are paying is terrible but unfortunate as the circumstances may be, Israel has no choice.
Good night.

 

[Yonoz]

Maybe not, but those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, as the saying goes.

Yeah, proverbs are nice.

 

[Yonoz]

Well, every heard of the term, "state within a state" It is referring to the grip that Hezbollah has on the south of Lebanon, and yes I have read up on them!

They do have a grip on south Lebanon, but they also have a private neighbourhood in Beirut, I've covered it enough and it's described first hand in that NPR interview I asked you listen to.

 

[Hans de Vries]

with all that said, i think this shall be my last post on this thread, because it is going nowhere.

So, true. Like the peace process which is going nowhere.

The only one attacking a civilian population is Hizbullah.

Logic is going nowhere...

Hope is going nowhere ...What am I doing on this thread at the first place? Regards, Hans

P.S. A welcome to the UN peace force...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5215366.stm

 

[kyleb]

I read that the targets are optional and destroyed out of a desire for retribution rather than as a necessity.

Could you bring your source for that?

‘for every Katyusha barrage on Haifa, 10 Dahiya buildings will be bombed’

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retribution" .

 

[ak416]

good site giving you a more lebanese perspective.

edit:inappropriate, the site is intentionally inflammatory, stick to accredited news links

 

[Anttech]

Annan accuses Israel over attack on UN post
<snip>
Since fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militants began two weeks ago, there had been several dozen incidents of firing close to UN peacekeepers and observers, including direct hits on nine positions, some of them repeatedly, a UN official said.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1197718.ece

If Israel can't manage not to hit UN peacekeepers. It puts a new perceptive on there apparent selective targeting. I am not saying that Israel did this on purpose, I don't think they did as a matter of fact. However if they can't even avoid the UN peacekeepers in the south of Lebanon, they wont be able to only hit Hezbollah targets.

So I think this enforces my claim that Lebanon is being smashed to bits!

 

[Anttech]

Can you support this speculation?

Errmmm.. What is there too support? Are you dening that lebanon was gripped by civial war between 1975 and 1990? especially bad during the 80's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Perhaps we should start a new thread, but anyway. Debating is the means to an end. The end is to convince your *opponent* that your view point is the correct one. Life isn't binary and neither is a debate about the Israel Hezbollah conflict. There is no *logical* 1 or 0 or right or wrong. So to assert that emmotions "get in the way" is a falacy in this context IMHO.

Agreed. If your going to bring your tool box to a debate why leave 40% of your tools at home, whilst I don't condone trolling flaming or any sort of deliberate provoking of hostilility, a gentle prod to see where or why someone has the beliefs they do is of no serious threat to the logic of a debate and is quite a revelation sometimes. I understand why mods have to preach logic and Vulacan emotionless rehtoric, but that's not how human discussion goes, especially in emotive threads such as this one. I can't find a page on this entiure thread where someone hasn't tried to strengthen there argument by using emotion, luckily, it would be very dry if people refrained from normal discussion practices

 

[Yonoz]

If Israel can't manage not to hit UN peacekeepers. It puts a new perceptive on there apparent selective targeting. I am not saying that Israel did this on purpose, I don't think they did as a matter of fact. However if they can't even avoid the UN peacekeepers in the south of Lebanon, they wont be able to only hit Hezbollah targets.

No one ever claimed otherwise. That is why Israel has dropped leaflets, broadcasted radio messages and sent recorded phone messages to Lebanese civilians in the danger zone asking them to get away.

So I think this enforces my claim that Lebanon is being smashed to bits!

I fail to see how it does. You mentioned youself, Hizbullah "has a hold" over south Lebanon, this sort of thing is most likely to happen there. If anything this shows having UNIFIL in there is just another problem, not the solution.

 

[Yonoz]

Errmmm.. What is there too support? Are you dening that lebanon was gripped by civial war between 1975 and 1990? especially bad during the 80's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

No, I was referring to the second part:

I doubt that the central government of Lebanon could disarm Hezbollah. Its analgous of a little child trying to take candy from a grown man

 

[Anttech]

I would still refer you to the Civil war that gripped Lebanon for 15 years.

Why is it that the UN are in the south? and are you aware of its mandate?

To cut a long story short, they are there to help the weak Lebanese government bolster its control in the south.

 

[Anttech]

No one ever claimed otherwise. That is why Israel has dropped leaflets, broadcasted radio messages and sent recorded phone messages to Lebanese civilians in the danger zone asking them to get away.

How civil of you to let them know that you are about to destroy their homes, businesses and livelihood.

 

[Anttech]

To add to post #492:

FOUR UN observers were killed when their post was hit by an Israeli air strike in southern Lebanon last night.

A bomb struck the building occupied by Indian members of the team in Khiyam near the border with Israel.

Milos Struger, spokesman for the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon, said: "There are casualties among the observers. A rescue and medical team are there but unable to clear the rubble."

Mr Struger said there were 14 other incidents of firing close to the position from the Israeli side. He added: "The firing continued even during the rescue operation." UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan last night demanded Israel launch an immediate inquiry.

He said: "I am shocked and distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_obj...id=94762&headline=u-n--bombed--name_page.html

 

[Yonoz]

How civil of you to let them know that you are about to destroy their homes, businesses and livelihood.

It's more than anyone has ever done for Israeli civilians.

 

[J77]

Isreal are in trouble now - messing with the UN.

 

[Yonoz]

I would still refer you to the Civil war that gripped Lebanon for 15 years.

Why is it that the UN are in the south? and are you aware of its mandate?

To cut a long story short, they are there to help the weak Lebanese government bolster its control in the south.

That Lebanese government has done nothing to improve its control over the South in 6 years, in violation of UNSC resolution 1559. The problem is not weakness, it's unwillingness.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Hizbullah does not recognise Israel's right to exist and calls for Israel's destruction. Israel does not occupy one inch of Lebanese soil. Hizbullah demands the release of hundreds of prisoners including convicted murderers, including

Also they want the release of prisoners detained without trial don't forget.

Your use of the term soldiers in reference to Hizbullah is offending me, as I think it would anyone who was ever a soldier. There are plenty of other undisputed terms you can use.

I prefer Guerilla personally, or freedom fighter in some cases, not this one though.

A member of an irregular, usually indigenous military or paramilitary unit operating in small bands in occupied territory to harass and undermine the enemy, as by surprise raids.

Yonoz you would make a poor military strategist, if Palestine is indeeed waiting to repulse Israel what benefit would there be in attacking Hezbollah, if they are also helping them to repulse Israel, they might fight along side them but to fight them? Not smart(of course it could all be posturing, bravado, bluff). Oh and they aren't as powerfull as Hezbollah who are firmly entrenched for this situation anyway from what I've read so it would be fruitless and ultimately suicidal. There equipment and training is outdated according to the link I gave. Perhaps they thought when they were rebuilding their country after the last tragedy of war they could invest in infrastructure and tourism and all the things that bring back commerce and vibrancy to a country instead of war, that way they could recover faster? Poor planning when you have Israel as a neighbour I suspect if that was their intent.

 

[Anttech]

It's more than anyone has ever done for Israeli civilians.

As you said its a terrorist organisation, you shouldn't be scoping to the same levels.

That Lebanese government has done nothing to improve its control over the South in 6 years, in violation of UNSC resolution 1559. The problem is not weakness, it's unwillingness.

There is a difference between can't and wont. Dont you get that? The government hasnt been able too, it cant. You don't seem to understand the ramifications of a 15 year civil war, and of course the Syrian's control up till 2005. Do you honestly think in 1 year of Lebanon independence since the "cedar" revolution, it could have eradicated Hezbollah?

 

[Yonoz]

As you said its a terrorist organisation, you shouldn't be scoping to the same levels.

I was referring to the Lebanese government.

There is a difference between can't and wont. Dont you get that? The government hasnt been able too, it cant. You don't seem to understand the ramifications of a 15 year civil war, and of course the Syrian's control up till 2005. Do you honestly think in 1 year of Lebanon independence since the "cedar" revolution, it could have eradicated Hezbollah?

Again, not eradicated - disarmed.

 

[Yonoz]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/world/middleeast/25beirut.html"

In the days since Israeli planes began to bomb Lebanon, this seaside capital has been almost physically split in two, with its largely Shiite flank mutilated by Israeli airstrikes and most of the rest of the city remaining relatively unscathed, if quieter and emptier than usual.

The stark physical contrast reflects a deep and growing divide in Lebanese society between the less affluent, more religious Shiite south and the more urban center, largely of Sunni Muslims, Druse and Christians, which has built and benefited from a long-awaited economic boom.

 

[Anttech]

And from the same link:

“The first thing I thought was, ‘How crazy to go wake up the monster,’ ” said Issam Saleh, a secular Shiite and an engineer who spends most of his days writing poetry in the garden at the Paul Restaurant. Hezbollah “knew exactly what would happen, but did it anyway.”

Even so, as the Israeli bombardment of the south drags on, dividing lines have softened: Even those who hate Hezbollah are horrified by the destruction. Now, as the war rages without any foreseeable end, almost everybody has been wondering where their embattled country can possibly go from here.
<snip>
But the longer Israeli planes continue to pound the country, the more the Lebanese find it difficult to stay angry with Hezbollah. Horrific scenes unfolded on the Printania screen: collapsed buildings and vast stretches of rubble in Nabatiya, in the south.

“We’re not Hezbollah supporters, but we cannot excuse what the Israelis are doing,” said Rima Beydoun, a secular Shiite who owns an advertising agency.

“We knew there would be repercussions, but no one expected they would be like this,” Mr. Salhab, the filmmaker, said of Shiite support for Hezbollah. “I am very critical of that part of my country, but I have to put it aside, because we are being destroyed.

“At this point, I can’t just say: Hezbollah, go to hell.”

The situation is made all the more complicated by the nature of Hezbollah. It functions as a civil aid group as well as a militia, helping with schools and in hospitals, and in many cases providing essential public services at times in the years of the war when the government was simply not able. It has a savvy media operation, with a spokesman who takes groups of journalists on tours of the devastation in southern Beirut with a truck that blares Hezbollah fighting songs from rows of speakers.

 

[Hans de Vries]

That Lebanese government has done nothing to improve its control over the South in 6 years, in violation of UNSC resolution 1559. The problem is not weakness, it's unwillingness.

The Syrian troops just left 12 months ago. Thanks to the international community.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1437-2004Oct1.html


Regards, Hans

 

[Hurkyl]

Life isn't binary and neither is a debate about the Israel Hezbollah conflict. There is no *logical* 1 or 0 or right or wrong. So to assert that emmotions "get in the way" is a falacy in this context IMHO.

You can reason with shades of grey, y'know. But as far as I can tell, this really has no bearing whatsoever on whether emotions "get in the way".

The civilan deaths are a result of Israel's response to that.

Of course, this is a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back sort of thing. (at least, it appears that way to me)

But with the same sentance they understand that Israel doesn't have a right to destroy Beruit and create 500,000 Refugies, as they try to smash hezbollah to the ground.

Why not?

I'm sure you agree that Israel has the right to "smash Hezbollah to the ground"... or at least to strike at its capability to terrorize Israel. Upon what grounds do you deny them that right?

Well I do not.
And we have the right to our views right?

Attacking a civilian population is crystal clear agression in my views.

Yes you can have your views -- but this is a debate, not a poll. And, of course, posting your view means it's fair game for criticism.

It has been pointed out several times this thread that "attacking civilians" and "attacking militants hiding among civilians" are two very different things.

You're going to have to address this fact if you want to have any chance of getting anyone to listen to you who does not already agree with you.

Agreed. If your going to bring your tool box to a debate why leave 40% of your tools at home

If 40% of your "tool box" is logical fallacies, then I'd really prefer you left the whole thing at home.

a gentle prod to see where or why someone has the beliefs they do is of no serious threat to the logic of a debate

Why not simply ask?

but that's not how human discussion goes, especially in emotive threads such as this one.

If everyone walked off a cliff, would you? We should not aspire to a low standard just because some people don't know how to have a rational discussion.

luckily, it would be very dry if people refrained from normal discussion practices

But there would be more progress. I'd prefer dry progress than... um... non-dry stagnation. If memory serves, I thought the thread was progressing rather nicely until "normal discussion practices" entered the fray, and have since felt the thread has slowed way down.

A year ago, a thread like this would have gone essentially nowhere, because all shreds of rational argument would be lost amongst the "normal discussion practices".

 

[Anttech]

Why not?

I'm sure you agree that Israel has the right to "smash Hezbollah to the ground"... or at least to strike at its capability to terrorize Israel. Upon what grounds do you deny them that right?

So why not nuke them? it would be quicker, and 100% guaranteed to kill the majority of terrorists! Would you back this strategy?