News Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[devious_]

We keep getting back to that: you guys say Israel needs to do more. More is arguable, but what you like to ignore is that the PA/Arabs has/have done nothing.

That's quite a statement.

By the way, you seem to really enjoy using bold to emphasise your points. I've noticed this in all your posts. I don't want to attack you personally, but it's very annoying.

 

[Yonoz]

Israel had the choice to ask for help too.

Whome?

I'm glad to see you admit that those were just strawmen in your list.

As far as I'm concerned they're all strawmen. They're strawmen because the only way Israeli civilians are safe is if our own government takes care of that.

Now specificly, when and what was the last valid effort Israel made to resolve the problem of Hezbollah by working with UN or UNIFIL officals?

Stop stalling.

Prior to the hostilities of July 2006, Israel had been lobbying for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIFIL#Debate_over_UNIFIL_presence" apprised of incidents across the Blue Line. The incidents are not insubstantial.

No, I'm explaining the strong relationship the whole Muslim world has with the Palelstinian-Israeli conflict.

So regardless of the undeniable realities, does Israel's occupation of the west bank justify Hizbullah's attack?

 

[Yonoz]

What do you think of when you hear someone speak of Palestine's borders, surely you must have a reasonable answer for that question yourself?

There never existed a country called Palestine so I really don't know what borders it would have. I consider the "green line" to be a fair settlement.

 

[kyleb]

I thought it was clear that my opinion is that there is no reasonable means besides force. You, not me, are the one claiming a reasonable means exists and so it is up to you to argue that point. You're trying to get me to argue your point for you!

I asked Yonoz for clarification on his claim that Israel pursued reasonable means prior to this attack, and you took issue with my request. I'm not asking you to argue for my point but rather your contest gave me the misunderstanding that you were backing Yonoz's argument, I apologize for my confusion there.

 

[SOS2008]

Worthless liberal B.S. rhetoric. Tell me: how did that work for dealing with Hitler?

When someone wants nothing less than your death, you have a simple choice: kill them or let them kill you.

If you disagree, explain how what you just said can actually be implimented. How exactly can Israel "take away their reason [for anger]" without committing mass suicide? What can they reasonably do? How can Israel provide hope? How does not punishing a criminal help ensure that criminal won't commit the same crime again?

Of course you would see positive idealism as liberal BS. If you read everything I stated, I said that now Hezbollah must be dealt with via force (as well as other rogue militias in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.), just as Hitler had to AFTER years of neglect--or in this case poor policies. Nonetheless, it is never too late to begin efforts toward real change, and I was not referring to just Israel but primarily to U.S. foreign policy, which should show leadership in an international effort and preferably without Christian bias--for a change. Please don't twist my words.

 

[kyleb]

Whome?

As far as I'm concerned they're all strawmen. They're strawmen because the only way Israeli civilians are safe is if our own government takes care of that.

Stop stalling.

That Wiki article you quoted doesn't list a date or much of any detail at all. I asked for specificly, when and what did Israel last pursue as a reasonable means to remove Hezbollah prior to this attack; am I to take your response here to mean you do not have an answer for my question?

So regardless of the undeniable realities, does Israel's occupation of the west bank justify Hizbullah's attack?

No, and neither does Hezbollah's attack justify Israel's response.

There never existed a country called Palestine so I really don't know what borders it would have. I consider the "green line" to be a fair settlement.

I consider that fair as well, but I have yet to see Israel offer that much.

 

[Skyhunter]

The reason that the US has not led an effort to end the conflict, is because Rove did a poll of the fundamentalist base and discovered that they want to see Armageddon soon, so they can get on with the rapture.

Seriously though, I don't see this ending until Israel is satisfied that Hezbollah is disarmed.

I hope it is soon before other nations get involved.

 

[Anttech]

UN are claiming, that 1/3 of all casualties are children in Beruit. I'll find a source, I just heard this on the News. Absolutley disgusting!

 

[Hurkyl]

How on Earth did you conclude that?

Well, I first heard what they said. I then processed the words to extract meaning, and then I analyzed the meaning to extract an impression of what was said. (All automatically, of course)

Aside from your comments, none of what I heard left me with the impression that they were confusing Hezbollah with Lebanon, so therefore I concluded that they're making a clear distinction.

So, since I've heard nothing in the media that confuses Lebanon with Hezbollah, it surprised me that there might be people here who cannot make the distinction.


As to the point you didn't bother actually making:

Target hit:
Convoys of civilian Trucks
Airport
Bridges
Roads
Civilian Buildings
Hezbollah hide outs

Since you seem not to be aware of such things...

When in a military conflict, it is a standard objective to disrupt the transportation network your enemy is using.

And Hezbollah is accused both of caching weapons in civilian buildings, and firing weapons from the same.

So, everything you listed would, in fact, be a natural target for a war against Hezbollah.


Even if you are right, and Israel does not distinguish between Lebanon and Hezbollah, the quoted list is not proof.

What a joke. Can you explain to me how shelling the capital city of Lebenon is going to enforce the control of the Lebenon goverment?

I'll assume you meant:

"Can you explain to me how shelling the capital city of Lebanon will help the Lebanese government gain control?"

Well, there's an obvious factor in favor of it -- the weaker Hezbollah is, the easier it will be for Lebanon to exert control over them. And there's another one -- the more damage Hezbollah causes by provoking wars with Israel, the more pressure Lebanon will feel to stop Hezbollah.

There are, of course, factors working against it. Which will win out is yet to be seen.

But frankly, since Israel is specifically aiming at Hezbollah targets, I find it difficult to believe that Lebanon will be weakened more than Hezbollah will.

I guess the reason you concluded that was because

Nope. In fact, I gave the reason I concluded that in my parenthetical. I thought it was clear what the parenthetical was describing; my mistake.

UN are claiming, that 1/3 of all casualties are children in Beruit. I'll find a source, I just heard this on the News. Absolutley disgusting!

No, the (alledged) fact is not disgusting on its own. Something you are inferring from it is what you find disgusting.

(At least... I hope you haven't been tricked into believing the fact itself is disgusting)

 

[SOS2008]

The reason that the US has not led an effort to end the conflict, is because Rove did a poll of the fundamentalist base and discovered that they want to see Armageddon soon, so they can get on with the rapture.

Seriously though, I don't see this ending until Israel is satisfied that Hezbollah is disarmed.

I hope it is soon before other nations get involved.

Hezbollah is just a current symptom of an ongoing problem. To find a long-term solution, we need to be honest and reasonable about a few things.

First we need to examine why groups like Hezbollah emerge and gain popularity. I believe it is not so simple to just say they want to annihilate Israel. It's much deeper than that. As I said, take away the reason to be (anger, frustration, humiliation, etc.) that has resulted from unbalanced, even racist treatment by the U.S. and Israel. This is due in large part to cultural and religious affinity between the U.S. and Israel. It not only is wrong, it is not logical.

Aside from a powerful Jewish constituency in the U.S., many people like my youngest brother are Christians who believe in the prophecies of the Last Days, and like him most such believers also are neocon Republicans. My brother has argued that he supports Israel over Arab countries because Israel not only is a trusted ally in the region, but most importantly is a democracy. Let's not forget that Arab nations have been and are allies too, and I find it interesting to watch conservatives struggle with the hole in the neocon theory regarding democracy. With the election and declaration of Lebanon as a democracy, they now must show support for a government that includes members of Hamas (oops). And I don't know about the rest of you, but personally I would prefer that U.S. foreign policy not be based on the Rapture and that it was just a laughing matter. I'll bet you the Israelis who are accepting donations for the rebuilding of the Temple Mount think it's ridiculous, but why ruin a good thing?

If people want to be so simplistic or irrational, why not suggest that we just nuke them all (probably what Bush really believes)? We need to be preemptive in our policies, not military might if we want groups like the Taliban in Afghanistan, the Mehdi army, Ansar al-Islam, etc. in Iraq, and of course Al-Qaeda to permanently disappear. As I said, Hezbollah is just another radical militia that is a current symptom of a larger, ongoing problem.

 

[Anttech]

But frankly, since Israel is specifically aiming at Hezbollah targets, I find it difficult to believe that Lebanon will be weakened more than Hezbollah will.

Israel's intelgence isn't all its cracked up to be, many inccocent lifes have been lost and (for the unpteenth time) the infrastructure of Lebenon is being targeted which is crippling the country and thus the goverment.

I'll assume you meant:

"Can you explain to me how shelling the capital city of Lebanon will help the Lebanese government gain control?"

Well, there's an obvious factor in favor of it -- the weaker Hezbollah is, the easier it will be for Lebanon to exert control over them. And there's another one -- the more damage Hezbollah causes by provoking wars with Israel, the more pressure Lebanon will feel to stop Hezbollah.

Sorry, but destroying the fabric of Lebenon ,which is what is happening, is not going to strengthen the goverment, its a rediculas statement.

No, the (alledged) fact is not disgusting on its own. Something you are inferring from it is what you find disgusting.

The fact is disgusting what ever I am or I am not inferring is irrelevent.

(At least... I hope you haven't been tricked into believing the fact itself is disgusting)

was this another high brow joke, like your introductory statement in your last post?

 

[Anttech]

Israel may get there charged for war crimes when this is all over:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197544.stm

Indiscriminate shelling of cities constitutes a foreseeable and unacceptable targeting of civilians... Similarly, the bombardment of sites with alleged military significance, but resulting invariably in the killing of innocent civilians, is unjustifiable

"I do believe that on the basis of evidence that is available in the public domain there are very serious concerns that the level of civilian casualties, the indiscriminate shelling of cities and so on, on their face raise sufficient questions that I think one must issue a sobering signal to those who are behind these initiatives to examine very closely their personal exposure," she told the BBC.

 

[selfAdjoint]

First we need to examine why groups like Hezbollah emerge and gain popularity. I believe it is not so simple to just say they want to annihilate Israel. It's much deeper than that. As I said, take away the reason to be (anger, frustration, humiliation, etc.) that has resulted from unbalanced, even racist treatment by the U.S. and Israel. This is due in large part to cultural and religious affinity between the U.S. and Israel. It not only is wrong, it is not logical.

I can't really buy that. Hezbollah are Shiites and clients of Iran. Whatever rational issues Iran may have had over Mossadegh and the Shah
are way in the past, and we are their Great Satan just because we're us. LIkewise the Lebanon Shiites are not reacting to anything current, it's just a tradition that formed decades ago and is very carefully taught to young people. Evil Israel and evil US.

I don't think Israel is evil for defending its existence. This saturation attack on the part of Lebanon close to the border sounds like preparation for an invasion. If so, I for one would be hard put to criticze; unlike the US with Iraq, they have neen attacked from that precise location.

 

[Cyrus]

Whatever rational issues Iran may have had over Mossadegh and the Shah
are way in the past, and we are their Great Satan just because we're us.

It's not because of who we are, it's because of what we have done to them. That's another thread entirely though .

 

[Anttech]

I don't have a problem with Israel going for hezbollah. What I have a problem with is that they are completely tearing Lebenon apart! Or as Lebanon PM put it "Lebanon has been torn to shreds".

whats happening is completely disproportionate, Even Annan thinks this and Said it! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5199088.stm

Have you seen some of the pictures of beruit? And Hezbollah are unscaved!

 

[Yonoz]

That Wiki article you quoted doesn't list a date or much of any detail at all. I asked for specificly, when and what did Israel last pursue as a reasonable means to remove Hezbollah prior to this attack; am I to take your response here to mean you do not have an answer for my question?

Is the security council report not enough for you?

No, and neither does Hezbollah's attack justify Israel's response.

So Israel has no right to defend its civilians against Hizbullah shelling and to prevent kidnapped Israeli soldiers from being moved to Syria or Iran?

I consider that fair as well, but I have yet to see Israel offer that much.

That's why it's called negotiations... If there was a sincere response from the Palestinians, most Israelis would support such a concession.

 

[Anttech]

So Israel has no right to defend its civilians against Hizbullah shelling and to prevent kidnapped Israeli soldiers from being moved to Syria or Iran?

Yes it absolutly does have the right to defend itself, but not by crippling Lebanon, and killing civilans. Its gone way beyond and anti-terrorism opperation now.

 

[Yonoz]

First we need to examine why groups like Hezbollah emerge and gain popularity. I believe it is not so simple to just say they want to annihilate Israel. It's much deeper than that. As I said, take away the reason to be (anger, frustration, humiliation, etc.) that has resulted from unbalanced, even racist treatment by the U.S. and Israel. This is due in large part to cultural and religious affinity between the U.S. and Israel. It not only is wrong, it is not logical.

You "believe" it? Can you base your belief? Why don't you listen to the NPR shows Astronuc linked to. You'll find this has less to do with Israel and more to do with internal Arab affairs.

 

[Yonoz]

Yes it absolutly does have the right to defend itself, but not by crippling Lebanon, and killing civilans. Its gone way beyond and anti-terrorism opperation now.

You keep making these accusations but you've yet to support any of them. Israel is not targetting civilians or the Lebanese infrastructure.

 

[Astronuc]

First we need to examine why groups like Hezbollah emerge and gain popularity.

Post 208 on page 14, one will find two links looking at the current situation with Hizbullah.

The US has had an effect of destabilizing the ME - and certainly the policies of the Bush administration have been misguided, incompetent, . . .

Many in the ME see Israel as a proxy for the US, which is just not the case, but Israel certainly gets significant support from the US.

The big issue for Hizbullah is that they backed Syria's occupation of Lebanon and when Syria left, they lost face. Furthermore, the Shiia population is under-represented in the Lebanese government. So the way to regain popularity and flex it's muscle is for Hizbullah to attack Israel, which is what Hizbullah has done. BTW, it was an 'unprovoked' attack.

Israel cannot negotiate with Hizbullah, because there is no good faith on the side of Hizbullah.

As for Israel's response, they really don't have much of choice. Perhaps they need to be more careful, but they are not doing what any other major power has been doing recently - US in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Russia in Chechnya (Putin's comment about Israel over-reaction is absurd and hypocritical - Israel's response in Lebanon is much more restrained than the Russian response in Chechnya).

Over the years, Israel has offered reasonable terms to the Palestinian, but Arafat has sabotaged the process. The current Palestinian Government didn't have chance to do anything constructive by the time Hamas members were elected to the government. The biggest problem for the Palestinians has been the corruption of Arafat's government.

The main fault of Israel has been the settlements in the West Bank.

As for the security wall - that would be entirely unnecessary if it wasn't for the suicide bombers and the complicity of the Palestinian government in allowing terrorists to operate in the territories.

 

[Rach3]

You keep making these accusations but you've yet to support any of them. Israel is not targetting civilians or the Lebanese infrastructure.

Of course they're targeting infrastructure! Bombed roads, bombed bridges, bombed airports, a total blockade - that's "infrastrcture" in my dictionary, and it's causing a humanitarian crisis. Obviously IDF does not target civilians directly (unlike Hizbollah), that's almost tautological.

 

[ukmicky]

Israel may get there charged for war crimes when this is all over:

No they won’t. this is a war so

1. They can’t be charged as long as the action was taken because they honestly believe they are targeting Hezbollah or
2 if steps are taken to prevent the injury or death of the innocent civilian population in the area they are targeting.

Israel is not indiscriminately attacking civilian areas or buildings they are attacking known targets and so if a bomb hits a building and due to collateral damage a civilian is injured or killed then under international law Israel have no case to answer.

Also bearing in mind the second point above Israel are actually dropping leaflets in the areas they are going to attack warning the civilian population of the action they are about to take telling them what they are going to bomb and advising them to leave until the bombing is over .So if they don’t leave (I would wouldn’t you )then its not Israel fault under international law if they are killed , As they say what other country in the world has ever dropped leaflets warning the residents good or bad that they are about to be bombed so get out.

Also the other problem is that Hezbollah are being allowed to masquerade as civilians by the locals in the areas they are organising their attacks from, so what is Israel supposed to do not bomb something that is responsible for killing their civilians because theirs no way to prove that the people they've bombed are Hezbollah and not civilians, its a case of if i allow someone to organise the death of someone else from my house then I'm just as guilty.

I’m sorry but anyone who lives next to a building which is part of an organisation attacking another country and you know that the chances are that it’s going to be bombed and you don’t leave even after reading a leaflet warning you that it is going to be bombed then they deserve what they get.

IT’S SOUNDS NASTY BUT IT’S TRUE

 

[Astronuc]

The Marshall plan required the conquering and unconditional surrender of Japan and Germany before it could begin.

Sort of.

. . . . You can't have a Marshall Plan until you conquer the country that you are going to implement it in.

Not quite. The US did not conquer (of course, it did invade most of them to drive out the German invaders) most of the countries invovled in the Marshall plan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

The Marshall Plan, known officially following its enactment as the European Recovery Program (ERP), was the primary plan of the United States for rebuilding the allied countries of Europe and repelling communism after World War II. The initiative was named for United States Secretary of State George Marshall and was largely the creation of State Department officials, especially William L. Clayton and George F. Kennan.

The reconstruction plan was developed at a meeting of the participating European states in July 1947.

. . . .

Truman signed the Marshall Plan into law on April 3, 1948, establishing the Economic Cooperation Administration (ECA) to administer the program. ECA was headed by economic cooperation administrator Paul G. Hoffman. In the same year, the participating countries (Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, West Germany, Great Britain, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, and the United States) signed an accord establishing a master coordinating agency, the Organization for European Economic Cooperation (later called the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, OECD), which was headed by Frenchman Robert Marjolin.

The Marshall plan not only involved Germany and Japan, but effectively all of Europe.

Certainly the Marshall plan required an end to the War. One cannot do much economic development while people are blowing up the infrastructure and killing one another.

On the other hand, a Marshall type plan could have been initiated before war, before Hitler came to power, or just after WWI, or before WWI, but the US was not as strong as it was after WWII. And besides, the US was grabbing territory in the Pacific and Central/South America itself.

Sound economic trade and trade policies are among the requirements for global stability, in addition to non-corrupt governments among others. Unfortunately, history has demonstrated that has not been the case, and hence the mess we have now.

 

[SOS2008]

Post 208 on page 14, one will find two links looking at the current situation with Hizbullah.

The US has had an effect of destabilizing the ME - and certainly the policies of the Bush administration have been misguided, incompetent, . . .

Many in the ME see Israel as a proxy for the US, which is just not the case, but Israel certainly gets significant support from the US.

The big issue for Hizbullah is that they backed Syria's occupation of Lebanon and when Syria left, they lost face. Furthermore, the Shiia population is under-represented in the Lebanese government. So the way to regain popularity and flex it's muscle is for Hizbullah to attack Israel, which is what Hizbullah has done. BTW, it was an 'unprovoked' attack.

Israel cannot negotiate with Hizbullah, because there is no good faith on the side of Hizbullah.

As for Israel's response, they really don't have much of choice. Perhaps they need to be more careful, but they are not doing what any other major power has been doing recently - US in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Russia in Chechnya (Putin's comment about Israel over-reaction is absurd and hypocritical - Israel's response in Lebanon is much more restrained than the Russian response in Chechnya).

Over the years, Israel has offered reasonable terms to the Palestinian, but Arafat has sabotaged the process. The current Palestinian Government didn't have chance to do anything constructive by the time Hamas members were elected to the government. The biggest problem for the Palestinians has been the corruption of Arafat's government.

The main fault of Israel has been the settlements in the West Bank.

As for the security wall - that would be entirely unnecessary if it wasn't for the suicide bombers and the complicity of the Palestinian government in allowing terrorists to operate in the territories.

By no means am I defending Hezbollah and certainly not attacks that are unprovoked. I agree Israel like any sovereign nation has a right to self defense, but they could have responded in a way less likely to escalate into a wider conflict. Both sides have agendas that are questionable and likely detrimental to the entire world, which is weary of it.

And I agree with much of what you've posted except the comment about reasonable terms and Arafat. I consider Jimmy Carter to be someone well versed in Mideast affairs, and he himself said that had Arafat agreed to the terms, which were not reasonable, Arafat would have been assassinated. But dwelling on this kind of history only gets in the way of finding solutions for the Mideast.

So I would like to redirect my post to the matter of groups such as Hezbollah, and why such groups emerge and are able to gain popularity. The point about corruption is a good point, and a problem particularly in the third world, but it is everywhere on some level, even the U.S. What is fuelling the hatred? Just internal Arab affairs, or generations of propaganda? That plays a part, but that doesn't explain all of it.

The U.S. has had a negative effect in many countries all around the world in an attempt to control local politics for self-serving reasons. In the case of the Mideast there is oil of course, but there also has been growing racism against Arabs and Islam in America. I don't listen to NPR to know this, and it's much more mainstream then racism against Jews has ever been. And all you have to do is look at UN resolutions to see consistent U.S. bias in favor of Israel. Would this upset you if you were Arab? I think it would. The insurgents in Iraq did not emerge and/or gain power until after the U.S. illegally invaded the country. If a more powerful country did that to us, would we like it? I don't think so.

I'm not saying Syria or Iran or what ever is pure as the driven snow. I'm saying we need to do some analytical, objective thinking of how to really improve things. Just arguing about a current sympton gets nowhere.

 

[Hurkyl]

the infrastructure of Lebenon is being targeted which is crippling the country

Crippling?? Countries have undergone years of carpet bombing, and still emerged to be powerful countries. I think Lebanon can survive a week or so of tactical and strategic bombing.

The fact is disgusting what ever I am or I am not inferring is irrelevent.
...
was this another high brow joke, like your introductory statement in your last post?

No. It's my perception that you've been suckered. You thought things were bad before, then someone invoked the word "children", and suddenly you think things are even worse!

The simple fact that there are civilian casualties suggests that there are children dying. If the report said that a mere 1%, or a whopping 75% of the casualties were children, that would be surprising. But that "1/3 of all casualties are children" is roughly what you should have already been imagining.

So, the statement "1/3 of all casualties are children" contains essentially no content, so it's not really meant to inform. It's meant to remind you that children are dying, thus evoking an emotional response. A classic appeal to emotion.


IIRC, I know that you find any number of civilian casualties, be it one or one million, is unacceptable. I know you find the situation disgusting -- but I very strongly suspect it's the mere fact that there are civilian casualties is what you find disgusting... that those casualties involve children is just a red herring.

 

[kyleb]

Is the security council report not enough for you?

I asked for your explanation of when and what Israel most recently did to pursue as a reasonable means to remove Hezbollah prior to this attack, "the security council report" isn't an answer at all. Calling for a security force strong enough to acomplish the goal would be, but did Israel ever try that?

So Israel has no right to defend its civilians against Hizbullah shelling and to prevent kidnapped Israeli soldiers from being moved to Syria or Iran?

Israel has a responsibility to defend it's civilians and that is why it should have called for a security force strong enough to remove Hezbollah's presence form the boarder long ago. Calling on international help to secure the routes to Iran would have been well with within Israel's rights as well, but blowing up whatever you think you need to most certainly is not Israel's or anyone else's right.

That's why it's called negotiations... If there was a sincere response from the Palestinians, most Israelis would support such a concession.

A sincere response requires a fair offer, and like you said the green line would be a fair offer; but you can't expect a sincere response when you haven't made a fair offer.

 

[clj4]

"The soldiers need to be returned." - Bush

What about the 10,000 Arab prisoners, including Palestinian officials, held by Israel?

You mean the arrested terrorists?

 

[clj4]

Most certainly some of them were.

The Palestinian raid that produced the initial kidnapping was motivated at least partially by recent incidents in which Israelis killed Palestinian civilians.

You lie.

Palestianians kill Israeli civilians. Israelis kill Palestinian civilians. Israelis kidnap Palestinians.

You lie. Again.

Palestinians kidnap Israelis.

And have as a charter the destruction of Ireal. wake up from your apologetic state.

And, http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,605798,00.html" , they are the same people.

Not really, you need to check your facts.

 

[clj4]

Is it common belief that a group of terrorists can "escort" a pair of Israeli captives past the check-in, airport security and the flight crew without having to worry about being detained?

I can easily imagine extraction over ground - but boarding an international flight?

Wake up, Hezbollah are nothing but part of the Lebanon people. The Lebanese government has been pandering for them for ages.

 

[clj4]

Regarding having claims to a land I suppose by that logic the American Indians should claim the U.S. If one loves one's country one stays there and fights till the end for it, not departs and comes back after 2000 years and lays claims due to some claims in a religious book.

They never departed. There was continuity. Try reading history.

 

[clj4]

So Israel's reason of existence is that they are there, have the biggest guns, and the most powerful friends. As is the case anywhere else.

You forget a "small" detail: they were there, CONTINOUSLY for 5-6000 years.

 

[clj4]

Did those 250 Lebanese civilians want Israel annihilated?

I can understand a reaction against Hezbollah, but not against civilians. Only 2 hezbollah out of 250 civilians, no. Find an effective way of killing Hezbollah if that's your goal. I have no problem if you can do that.

Because the Hezbollah, like the Hamas hides amongst the civilians. You didn't know that? Now you do.

 

[clj4]

Sure, I am not denying that fact. Tel Aviv looks like a nice place. Also being Greek I would like to go to jerusalem. But that's beside the point. Israel is far richer than Lebenon. And Yes I remember recent history, and if you topple the Lebonen government it will repeat its-self. Lebenon should and will be if left to its owe devices be a democratic secular state! Yonoz, Israel is destroying the fabric of the civilian infrastructure in Lebenon, it will take years to repair and hundereds of millions of Euros. The same cannot be said of israel. I feel sorry for your blight, but I truly think the "punishment" that is being given back to lebenon is totally disproportionate.

But you greeks have a looong history of antisemitism and apologism towards the muslims. After all , you spent about 500 years under the turks.

 

[clj4]

yeap, wonder why they are not condemming anything ----hmmmm---- ohh yeah because of the Israeli lobbist in Washington

Now your bias is starting to show even more. The reason US is not intervening is that it wants Hezbollah delt with, once and for all. You do not negociate with terrorists.

 

[clj4]

I'm confused when you bombed that airport what were the civillian casualties, 79 wasn't it, something like that? So what about israel bombing civillians is untrue? The fact is the major casualties of this war, are civillian, men, women and children, are you denying this? Perhaps I insulted the IDF by claiming they couldn't kill more civillians if they tried? I apologise I've obviously cast aspersions on their skills.

I watch the news every day and all I see is civillian casualties rising, are the lives of two soldiers recompensed by the lives of 300 dead civillians on both sides? Is this teaching Hezbollah that their methods won't work, or by pounding them are you mereley making there iron resolve into steel? Are all the other middle Eastern terrorist groups getting pissed with Israel, is their recruitment going to sky rocket, could fundementalist lunatics get any more partisan? What is it you are hoping to achieve here? You seem to have a habbit of moving into the Lebanon getting bitten and then retreating, is this all just a little bit of history repeating? If you withdraw this time it'll be the 4th time IIRC, perhaps you should consider doing it before more lives are lost? You made your point, how many more innocent people have to die?

I'm surprised actually I thought that post was more insulting to the US, but then I guess they are used to it .

Don't get me wrong I am impartial in this affair, I disagree equally with what both sides are doing and hope for peace. I personally find indiscriminately rocketing Israel to be cowardly and abhorrent, but this overkill startegy is lowering yourself to their level; it's hardly a way to garner favour with the rest of the world now is it? Personally I think this was a job for Mossad and special force units, not the IDF, a softly softly catchy monkey approach would have worked better IMO, at least it would have been more discriminate.

You might be right but it appears that a lot of the world thinks that this may be a job of finishing Hezbollah, once and for all. You need the army in order to do that. The first thing to do is to cut their retreats such that they do not run back to Syria. The second thing you do, you bomb the hell out of their positions. The third thing you do you sent the infantry to finish them off.

 

[clj4]

I think it became a "law of nature" now. Israel will always be doing this, as long as it exists, and will always be attacked by terrorists, as long as it exists.
This is now based upon ~50 years of data taking, without any empirical failure has been observed to this law.

Accumulated terrorist attacks on Israel induce responses by the IDF into their neighbour's territory, lots of casualties, etc... which then induces sympathy for the terrorist organisations, support, money, arms, recruites, ... and the cycle starts over again. How do you see any end to this ? Even if you destroy Hezbollah, another organization will take over.

So I guess we simply should get used to it.

You destroy Hezzbollah. Then you wait and see. It hasn't been done before, no it is a good opportunity to see. What a novel approach, destroy the terrorists.

 

[Yonoz]

Of course they're targeting infrastructure! Bombed roads, bombed bridges, bombed airports, a total blockade - that's "infrastrcture" in my dictionary, and it's causing a humanitarian crisis. Obviously IDF does not target civilians directly (unlike Hizbollah), that's almost tautological.

If Israel wished to target the civilian infrastructure in Lebanon, the Lebanese would have no electricity, no petrol, their police and military installations would be destroyed, etc. This is not the case. Those bridges and roads are used to supply rockets to be fired into Israel, as such they are legitimate targets according to international law.
Similarly, Israel's blockade is in full accordance with international law.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

What does that mean, lose gracefully ? For the Israelis, just sit on their ass while bombs go off and cities are under rocket fire ? For how many years ? Without voting in for a hardliner who promises to hit back ?
And for Arabs, to change the mind of their populations, against all the grieves they have for a multitude of reasons, so that not one single terrorist comes out of it ?

I means compromise. Israel to return the lands they took from Palestine in breach of the UN treaty and for Palestinians to accept Israels right to exist and to work towards the dismantelling of terror groups. I don't expect Israel to do nothing, but the level of retaliation is to most people totally out of proportion and no doubt it will come back to haunt Israel.

@Yonez I can't listen to the tape I don't have a sound card. Is It khomenia saying to the leader of Hezbollah to abduct two Israelli soldiers? Or is it more indirect stuff that is pretty inconclusive? I's not Irans involvement I question it's the speculation that they are behind all of this.

 

[Yonoz]

By no means am I defending Hezbollah and certainly not attacks that are unprovoked. I agree Israel like any sovereign nation has a right to self defense, but they could have responded in a way less likely to escalate into a wider conflict.

What should Israel do considering the fact that Hizbullah, calling for the destruction of Israel, has over 12000 rockets and is shelling Israeli civilians? Does any country have to wait for every single weapon to be used against its civilians before it attempts to destroy it?

Both sides have agendas that are questionable and likely detrimental to the entire world, which is weary of it.

What's so questionable about Israel's agenda? Israel has called for the deployment of the Lebanese army on the border - is this questionable? Is the demand that Hizbullah be disarmed as per UN security council resolutions questionable? Perhaps it's the demand that the kidnapped soldiers be returned?

And I agree with much of what you've posted except the comment about reasonable terms and Arafat. I consider Jimmy Carter to be someone well versed in Mideast affairs, and he himself said that had Arafat agreed to the terms, which were not reasonable, Arafat would have been assassinated. But dwelling on this kind of history only gets in the way of finding solutions for the Mideast.

I highly doubt that, but nevertheless - Israel has paid that exact price. I think that Rabin's assassination serves as a grim reminder of the toll the majority in Israel is paying to bring about a change, without a single Palestinian/Lebanese/Muslim act of good faith to help them achieve it.

So I would like to redirect my post to the matter of groups such as Hezbollah, and why such groups emerge and are able to gain popularity. The point about corruption is a good point, and a problem particularly in the third world, but it is everywhere on some level, even the U.S. What is fuelling the hatred? Just internal Arab affairs, or generations of propaganda? That plays a part, but that doesn't explain all of it.

The fact remains that there have always been violent conflicts between shiites, sunnys, kurds and other forces. The Lebanese civil war, the Iraq-Iran war, and the countless attacks on civilian populations that are continuing today. These are generally ignored by the media. However, when a non-Muslim force is participating, suddenly the entire world halts in its tracks and does its best to appease the Muslim world. This may be acceptable when a foreign power is fighting a war miles and miles away from its borders, but for nearly 60 years Israel is fighting for its survival. As upsetting as it may be to the Muslim world, Israel is here to stay and we will not tolerate attacks on our civilians. What has the international community done in Darfur? Ethiopia? Northern Iraq? Chechnya? While even pre-independence Israeli aggression is repeatedly debated here, have you ever even heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_Massacre" ? So those nations who were fiercely brutal in the past are now reaping the fruits of the fear they've sown into entire populations while Israel, that's been trying to appease the Arab world for over a decade, is shamelessly presented as the root of all evil in the middle east.
The biggest criticism against Israel is whether its response is proportionate. I'm not sure that ever in history such judgement was passed so quickly in the early stages of a bilaterally declared open war. You're basically saying Israel should wait until more of its civilians die before removing the threat.

The U.S. has had a negative effect in many countries all around the world in an attempt to control local politics for self-serving reasons. In the case of the Mideast there is oil of course, but there also has been growing racism against Arabs and Islam in America. I don't listen to NPR to know this, and it's much more mainstream then racism against Jews has ever been.

So when Muslims hate the west it's the west's fault, and when westerners hate Muslims it's unexplainable? Proportions, anyone? Even if that was true, it's the actions of both parties you should scrutinize. We're no saints but I don't think we've earned a fraction of the hatred and violence aimed at us.

And all you have to do is look at UN resolutions to see consistent U.S. bias in favor of Israel.

Funny, we view the UN as biased against Israel.

Would this upset you if you were Arab? I think it would.

Just don't upset the Arabs. Please. Let them butcher Israelis, just don't upset those Arabs. Let them commit mass murders in Darfur, just don't upset them! Let them use chemical warfare on the Kurds and Ethiopians, just don't upset them... Let them blow themselves up in buses, markets and mosques, just don't upset them.
One day you're going to wake up when Iran has nuclear capabilities. They will say "we want Israel destroyed", like they always have, will you "not upset them"? Of course, it doesn't mean much to you, since you don't live here.
Can you even begin to imagine what it's like to have you country's very existence in jeopardy?

 

[Yonoz]

I asked for your explanation of when and what Israel most recently did to pursue as a reasonable means to remove Hezbollah prior to this attack, "the security council report" isn't an answer at all. Calling for a security force strong enough to acomplish the goal would be, but did Israel ever try that?

First, get your facts straight. Israel is not asking for Hizbullah to be removed - we know it's a pipe dream, or to put it in your own word - a strawman. If you don't want to believe me when I say Israel converses regularly with UNIFIL officials about Hizbullah attacks I don't really mind.
For a force to disarm Hizbullah it would need a UN mandate to do so (highly unlikely, impossible before this conflict), the ability to comb south Lebanon (otherwise Hizbullah will simply move weapons around), the ability and mandate to use force against any resistance and countries willing to present and supply such a force. Do you think that's likely to ever happen? What country would step into the sticky Lebanese mud? It's political suicide. Does the UN security council need Israel to force it into enforcing its own resolutions? Apparently so. Do you think Israel is happy to just march into war without exhausting every other viable option? It certainly seems you do, so here's one Israeli telling you we're not.

Israel has a responsibility to defend it's civilians and that is why it should have called for a security force strong enough to remove Hezbollah's presence form the boarder long ago. Calling on international help to secure the routes to Iran would have been well with within Israel's rights as well, but blowing up whatever you think you need to most certainly is not Israel's or anyone else's right.

Are you familiar at all with international law? Read up on the Geneva convention, you'll find Israel has every right to bomb the bridges, runways, radar installations, even civilian houses if they store weapons.
I've yet to see Arab leaders who have attacked entire populations taken to the international court. I've yet to see Chinese officials taken to the international court, despite execution of Falun-Gong members for organ harvesting and the systemic destruction of the Tibetan nation. I've yet to see Russians taken to the international court for punishing the civilian population in Chechnya. I've yet to see Europe stand trial for its African adventure, in which even Belgium, the embodiment of post-colonialist self-righteousness murdered an elected official to keep its puppet government in place. It's all politics, don't be gullible.

A sincere response requires a fair offer, and like you said the green line would be a fair offer; but you can't expect a sincere response when you haven't made a fair offer.

Let me try to clarify a point about negotiations that you fail to grasp despite it being explained several times already in this discussion: both sides have to first recognise each other's basic rights. Then comes the part about making offers.

 

[Yonoz]

I means compromise. Israel to return the lands they took from Palestine in breach of the UN treaty and for Palestinians to accept Israels right to exist and to work towards the dismantelling of terror groups.

There was never a state called Palestine so Israel certainly could not have taken lands from it. The occupied territories were conquered from Arab nations. I don't know what UN treaty you're referring to, perhaps you could provide more detail.

I don't expect Israel to do nothing, but the level of retaliation is to most people totally out of proportion and no doubt it will come back to haunt Israel.

What is so disproportionate about it? Do you know how many rockets have landed in Israel so far? Over 1000, only from Hizbullah. And that's not counting mortars and anti-aircraft shells.

I can't listen to the tape I don't have a sound card. Is It khomenia saying to the leader of Hezbollah to abduct two Israelli soldiers? Or is it more indirect stuff that is pretty inconclusive? I's not Irans involvement I question it's the speculation that they are behind all of this.

Iran founded, funds, arms, trains and provides the ideological backing for Hizbullah. Obviously they would not make such an instruction public, and for Israel to provide proof of one would mean loss of an invaluable intelligence source. So I guess you'll just have to consider how likely it is that the extension of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard takes its orders from Iran.

 

[Mickey]

Hezbollah has a religious conviction that taking action to max out Lebanese civilian casualties is justified, since Israel is pulling the trigger. They are more than eager to use the deaths to create more hatred against Israel. This operation, the kidnapping of soldiers, etc., is a PR campaign for them to get more support.

And it's working, of course. Reporters in Lebanon are finding out that it doesn't matter whether people are pro-Hezbollah or anti-Hezbollah, they are all anti-Israel. Today the Lebanese Defence Minister reported that many Lebanese soldiers will likely break ranks and join Hezbollah, and there's nothing he can do about it.

The scariest thing, though, was when I saw Anderson Cooper today interview people on the streets in Syria. They all seemed peaceful and sanguine. It was in a really charming marketplace. He asked them questions like, how do you like your government, what do you think of Bush's desire to bring democracy to the Middle East, and so on. And they were like, shame on Bush, we're just fine. Our government is so good. We can criticize them all we want, it's just that there's nothing to criticize.

I seriously bought into it for a second. Then Cooper cut to the next segment, where he said that after he turned the cameras off, people came up to him and said, "we'd like to tell you how we really think, but we're afraid the secret police will come after us."

This Hezbollah stuff is only a proxy conflict against the real bad guys.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

There was never a state called Palestine so Israel certainly could not have taken lands from it. The occupied territories were conquered from Arab nations. I don't know what UN treaty you're referring to, perhaps you could provide more detail.

I find this sort of politcal BS insulting to Palestinians, it was there land given over by treaty, you broke the treaty and stole it and you refuse to give it back and your premise is they were not a state so we can break our promise before the world because they do not exist as a people or a state OK whatever, you broke your promise before the world, live with it. If it wasn't bad enough that a minority population was given their land in the first place you then steal more and pass them off as itinerant peasants, please you'll really have to do better than that.

What is so disproportionate about it? Do you know how many rockets have landed in Israel so far? Over 1000, only from Hizbullah. And that's not counting mortars and anti-aircraft shells.

2 soldiers kidnapped 300+ dead civillians. You are admitting this is revenge for past events and has nothing to do with the soldiers then? It's an excuse pretty much to war yes? a sort of pay back for past misdemeanours?

Iran founded, funds, arms, trains and provides the ideological backing for Hizbullah. Obviously they would not make such an instruction public, and for Israel to provide proof of one would mean loss of an invaluable intelligence source. So I guess you'll just have to consider how likely it is that the extension of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard takes its orders from Iran.

The focus started off soley on Syria now it has turned towards Iran or there is a distinct effort ot implicate Iran by US and to some extent UK media, do you think we may have an ulteriror motive in protraying Iran as the Axis of all evil? And do you wonder why I take this sort of propoganda and theorising with a pinch of salt, ifs and maybes are that, show me a direct link and I'll hold my hands up and agree, otherwise I'm going along with the position that it's the Syrians who instigated this, as it seemed to be in the first place until the media machine got around to Iran.

 

[Anttech]

No. It's my perception that you've been suckered. You thought things were bad before, then someone invoked the word "children", and suddenly you think things are even worse!

The simple fact that there are civilian casualties suggests that there are children dying. If the report said that a mere 1%, or a whopping 75% of the casualties were children, that would be surprising. But that "1/3 of all casualties are children" is roughly what you should have already been imagining.

So, the statement "1/3 of all casualties are children" contains essentially no content, so it's not really meant to inform. It's meant to remind you that children are dying, thus evoking an emotional response. A classic appeal to emotion.


IIRC, I know that you find any number of civilian casualties, be it one or one million, is unacceptable. I know you find the situation disgusting -- but I very strongly suspect it's the mere fact that there are civilian casualties is what you find disgusting... that those casualties involve children is just a red herring.

WOW -- talk about over analysing. I'll think you will find this whole argument you are *attempting* to get into with me is a red herring

 

[Anttech]

But you greeks have a looong history of antisemitism and apologism towards the muslims. After all , you spent about 500 years under the turks.

Apologism towards Muslims?

It was 300 years and it was the ottomans, not the turks. Turkey didnt exsist.

Ask Yonzo, he will *probably* back me up, being an Israeli. There are *Many* people in Israel belonging to Greek anceistry. Hell we own a very large porportion of the Land in Jerusalem. Greece especially in Thessaloniki *had* a massive Jewish community. Most of them where Murdered in WII, by the Nazi's.

http://www.ushmm.org/greece/eng/salonika.htm

Greek resistance groups, both communist and non-communist, battled the Axis occupiers in an effort, not only to save Greece, but also to save the Jews living there. The small number — 8,000 to 10,000 — of Greek Jews that survived the Holocaust was due in part to the unwillingness of Greek people to cooperate with German plans for their deportation. In addition, the Italian occupying authorities refused to facilitate or permit deportations from the Italian zone of occupation until Italy surrendered in September 1943.

We are not appoligetic towards terrorists (I think that's the word you ment to use, not equate Muslim with Terrorist, it shows your true colours). I would love for you to back that statement up with some facts.

Loooong history indeed of antisemitism

 

[Anttech]

Now your bias is starting to show even more. The reason US is not intervening is that it wants Hezbollah delt with, once and for all. You do not negociate with terrorists.

You don't negotiate with terrorists is a slogan, just like Russ put earlier "Give peace a chance" is. Its something Bushco like to say all the time, as a premesis to do whatever they like. The UK Goverment negotiated with Terrorists in Ireland many times, and ohhh look there is now peace! Regardsless Hezbollah needs it sting taken away, I am all for that. But Israel is going way beyond a terrorist opp Like Putin said, it is now completely destroying Lebanon. A Free Deomcratic mixed race country.

 

[Yonoz]

I find this sort of politcal BS insulting to Palestinians, it was there land given over by treaty, you broke the treaty and stole it and you refuse to give it back and your premise is they were not a state so we can break our promise before the wolrd because they do not exist as a people or a state OK whatever, you broke your promise before the world, live with it. If it wasn't bad enough that a minority population was given their land in the first place you then steal more and pass them off as itinerant peasants, please you'll really have to do better than that.

What is this treaty you speak of?

2 soldiers kidnapped 300+ dead civillians. You are admitting this is revenge for past events and has nothing to do with the soldiers then?

How did you get that impression?

It's an excuse pretty much to war yes?

Yeah, when rockets are falling on civilians it's a pretty good "excuse" to go to war. That's what governments are meant to do - protect their civilians. It's surprising that you do not criticize, and even rationalize, acts of aggression against Israel, yet see Israeli self-defence as unacceptable.

The focus started off soley on Syria now it has teunrend towards Iran or there is a distinct effort ot impicate Iran by US and to some extent UK media, do you think we may have a n ulteriror motive in protraying Iran as the Axis of all evil?

I think the motive to implicate Iran is quite straight-forward. Iran is destabilizing the region and stalling efforts to stop it from developing nuclear weapons. Very transparent for a conspiracy.

And do you wonder why I take this sort of propoganda and theorising with a pinch of salt, ifs and maybes are that, show me a direct link and I'll hold my hands up and agree, otherwise I'm going along with the position that it's the Syrians who instigated this, as it seemd to be in the first place until the media machine got around to Iran.

Fine, stick your head in the sand.

 

[Yonoz]

But Israel is going way beyond a terrorist opp Like Putin said, it is now completely destroying Lebanon.

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/"? Get your bearings straight mate, this is just another bit of world politics. If you're going to lecture about proportions I suggest you abstain from making unproportionate statements such as "Israel is completely destroying Lebanon".

 

[Anttech]

BTW Yonzo, where are u? Even tho I don't aggree with your goverments actions right now, you seem a good guy, and I hope you are safe.

 

[Yonoz]

BTW Yonzo, where are u? Even tho I don't aggree with your goverments actions right now, you seem a good guy, and I hope you are safe.

I appreciate your concern.
I go to university in the south. My family lives center north, right at the edge of the rocket hit area. Of course I have many friends and family living right in the middle of all the bombardements, and their lives are quite affected by the fighting. I won't go into all the details, it's quite clear the Lebanese are suffering much more than Israelis, and we've both been through worse. War is not good for anyone, but this time I can safely say the Israeli public is united and certain our government had no choice.
Having done my bit to help prepare for this war in some reserve service I had during the schoolyear, this saturday I'm going to set up a http://www.peacenow.org.il/" booth at a local mall. I hope people won't be too upset we're doing this at a time of war, we've decided we'll leave if it gets rough.