News Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[Anttech]

I want to add for better perceptive:

For the people who are reading this thinking that Lebenon is a "Muslim" country or a radical islamic state out to terrorise Israel because of this. You would be completely wrong. Lebenon is more or less half Islamic half Christian. There are many Millions of Christians, of Eastern Catholic, And Greek Orthodox living in what is an acient and beatiful place, much like Israel. People describe Lebenon as a mediteranian Country like the south of Italy, Greece, coast of Turkey. It has many classical ruins and warm and welcoming people, who are highly educated, and once apon a time where the bed rock of finance for the region.

 

[Yonoz]

Lebenon should and will be if left to its owe devices be a democratic secular state!

While a Lebanese terrorist coalition partner is killing Israeli civilians and kidnapping soldiers? What would Greece do if a Turkish party had its own private army and was shelling Greek towns and villages?

Yonoz, Israel is destroying the fabric of the civilian infrastructure in Lebenon, it will take years to repair and hundereds of millions of Euros.

Bridges and runways are not "the fabric" of a civilian infrastructure. Power facilities, water pumps, dams, hospitals, police stations, government buildings - all these are left untouched. Don't fall prey to the now-tiresome hysteria.

The same cannot be said of israel.

Israel is bombing buildings and bridges. Hizbulla are bombing civilians. Is there any realistic circumstance under which you would see Israeli action as acceptable?
Israel may not be harmed to the extent Lebanon is but no country should wait to be harmed before removing the threat. I'd like to remind you Hizbulla is doing its best to strike at Haifa's petrochemical industries. An unfortunate hit there could mean a regional disaster at a scale you do not wish to imagine.

I feel sorry for your blight, but I truly think the "punishment" that is being given back to lebenon is totally disproportionate.

It seems to me you want to see Israel hurt badly before it does anything to protect itself. I hope you understand me when I say I'd rather Israel struck first and save itself being hurt.

 

[Yonoz]

I want to add for better perceptive:

For the people who are reading this thinking that Lebenon is a "Muslim" country or a radical islamic state out to terrorise Israel because of this. You would be completely wrong. Lebenon is more or less half Islamic half Christian. There are many Millions of Christians, of Eastern Catholic, And Greek Orthodox living in what is an acient and beatiful place, much like Israel. People describe Lebenon as a mediteranian Country like the south of Italy, Greece, coast of Turkey. It has many classical ruins and warm and welcoming people, who are highly educated, and once apon a time where the bed rock of finance for the region.

...and a beautiful riviera. I sincerely hope it becomes those and more once again. I also wish I could visit there safely in my lifetime. Every Israeli I know feels the same. I'd like you to consider that other Middle-Eastern countries are misperceived just the same.

 

[Anttech]

While a Lebanese terrorist coalition partner is killing Israeli civilians and kidnapping soldiers? What would Greece do if a Turkish party had its own private army and was shelling Greek towns and villages

You are confussing Hezbolah and Lebenon. This is a big problem, and is obfusing what is happening. Recently a Turkish fight jet shot down a greek fighter jet over greek airspace, the greek solider died! We didnt start shelling Istanbul. Anyway that's beside the point, its not Lebenon its Hezbolah that are doing this.

Israel is bombing buildings and bridges. Hizbulla are bombing civilians.

Israel is bombing Trucks, roads, ports, airports bridges houses and civilians (unintentional or not they are doing it)

It seems to me you want to see Israel hurt badly before it does anything to protect itself.

I don't think that killing of civilans and destroying the fabic of a country is "defending" its attacking. And the outcome can be much worse for the region when the smoke settles.

now-tiresome hysteria.

No Hysteria here mate, just cold hard facts.

 

[Yonoz]

You are confussing Hezbolah and Lebenon. This is a big problem, and is obfusing what is happening. Recently a Turkish fight jet shot down a greek fighter jet over greek airspace, the greek solider died! We didnt start shelling Istanbul. Anyway that's beside the point, its not Lebenon its Hezbolah that are doing this.

Read what I have written again and tell me which part is untrue. Hizbullah is a terrorist organisation and a Lebanese coalition member.

Israel is bombing Trucks, roads, ports, airports bridges houses and civilians (unintentional or not they are doing it)

Hardly the fabric of a civilian infrastructure. Houses are used to harbour weapons and Hizbullah facilities. I can think of no military that ever has had to deal with a remotely similar threat to its country's civilians and I think the IDF is doing a tremendous job so far. Just a reminder - over 1000 sorties in the first 4 days, more than 100 crafts over Lebanon at one point in time - hunting weapons hidden in population centres. Compare the casualties with any war in history (scaled to match) - I think you'll find they're among the lowest.

And the outcome can be much worse for the region when the smoke settles.

I think otherwise. Even if it is, I think Israel has no choice.

No Hysteria here mate, just cold hard facts.

"Israel is destroying the fabric of civilian infrastructure in Lebanon" is not a fact - it's an assumption. I've shown facts that disprove this assumption - i.e. that power facilities, water supplies, government offices, police facilities, hospitals, food storage and more - that do compose the fabric of the civilian infrastructure - are unharmed.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Israel is bombing buildings and bridges. Hizbulla are bombing civilians. Is there any realistic circumstance under which you would see Israeli action as acceptable?

Israel are bombing civillians and Hizbullah are bombing civillians, I don't think either side could killl more civillians if it started aiming for them deliberately. I would see a cease fire as acceptable, but the US does not, so now we're waiting fro the US to wave there magic wand and resolve the crisis.

 

[Anttech]

I would see a cease fire as acceptable, but the US does not, so now we're waiting fro the US to wave there magic wand and resolve the crisis

yeap, wonder why they are not condemming anything ----hmmmm---- ohh yeah because of the Israeli lobbist in Washington

 

[Astronuc]

Interesting perspectives on the current situation in the Middle East. Hizbullah is apparently flexing its muscle to get back into the 'game'. Syria and Iran are also trying to exert influence. Hmmm, it seems like the old days of the Assyrian, Persian and Babylonian empires when they all tried to control as much territory and trade as possible.

On Fresh Air with Terry Gross -

Islamic Conflicts and Their Impact on the Future
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5567840

Fresh Air from WHYY, July 19, 2006 · Middle East expert Vali Nasr talks about the latest developments there, and about his book The Shia Revival: How Conflicts Within Islam Will Shape the Future.

Understanding Hezbollah's Leadership and Mission
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5567843

Fresh Air from WHYY, July 19, 2006 · A few years ago, writer Jeffrey Goldberg spoke with Hezbollah leaders for a 2002 article in called "In the Party of God: Are Terrorists in Lebanon Preparing for a Larger War?" Goldberg will help us understand the background of the current unrest in Lebanon. Goldberg serves as Washington correspondent for The New Yorker.

 

[Yonoz]

Israel are bombing civillians and Hizbullah are bombing civillians, I don't think either side could killl more civillians if it started aiming for them deliberately.

I can't think of anything more untrue or insulting.

 

[Yonoz]

yeap, wonder why they are not condemming anything ----hmmmm---- ohh yeah because of the Israeli lobbist in Washington

...or because they know, like the rest of the world's leaders, that there's no place for an armed Hizbullah in Lebanon and the only way to solve this problem is to disarm them.
This is a classic Iranian tactic - making violations in small continuous doses and then stalling any effort to put an end to them by dead-end negotiations.

 

[Anttech]

Hmmm, it seems like the old days of the Assyrian, Persian and Babylonian empires when they all tried to control as much territory and trade as possible.

Except they have bigger guns now!

 

[Anttech]

...or because they know, like the rest of the world's leaders, that there's no place for an armed Hizbullah in Lebanon and the only way to solve this problem is to disarm them.

I aggree, but not on your goverments methods

 

[Yonoz]

I aggree, but not on your goverments methods

Can you give, in fair detail, an alternative solution to the situation Israel has found itself in?

 

[Anttech]

I am not going to repeat myself!

You already asked me this, and I already gave my oppinion. Shelling Beruit isn't the answer and its completely over the top, tantrum like behaviour. Just like bombing the Palestien power grid!

 

[Yonoz]

Understanding Hezbollah's Leadership and Mission
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5567843

A very good interview, thanks.

 

[Yonoz]

Islamic Conflicts and Their Impact on the Future
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5567840

Another great interview. I had a different impression of NPR from previous textual reports. Bravo Astronuc.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I can't think of anything more untrue or insulting.

I'm confused when you bombed that airport what were the civillian casualties, 79 wasn't it, something like that? So what about israel bombing civillians is untrue? The fact is the major casualties of this war, are civillian, men, women and children, are you denying this? Perhaps I insulted the IDF by claiming they couldn't kill more civillians if they tried? I apologise I've obviously cast aspersions on their skills.

I watch the news every day and all I see is civillian casualties rising, are the lives of two soldiers recompensed by the lives of 300 dead civillians on both sides? Is this teaching Hezbollah that their methods won't work, or by pounding them are you mereley making there iron resolve into steel? Are all the other middle Eastern terrorist groups getting pissed with Israel, is their recruitment going to sky rocket, could fundementalist lunatics get any more partisan? What is it you are hoping to achieve here? You seem to have a habbit of moving into the Lebanon getting bitten and then retreating, is this all just a little bit of history repeating? If you withdraw this time it'll be the 4th time IIRC, perhaps you should consider doing it before more lives are lost? You made your point, how many more innocent people have to die?

I'm surprised actually I thought that post was more insulting to the US, but then I guess they are used to it .

Don't get me wrong I am impartial in this affair, I disagree equally with what both sides are doing and hope for peace. I personally find indiscriminately rocketing Israel to be cowardly and abhorrent, but this overkill startegy is lowering yourself to their level; it's hardly a way to garner favour with the rest of the world now is it? Personally I think this was a job for Mossad and special force units, not the IDF, a softly softly catchy monkey approach would have worked better IMO, at least it would have been more discriminate.

 

[Gokul43201]

Did those 250 Lebanese civilians want Israel annihilated?

I can understand a reaction against Hezbollah, but not against civilians. Only 2 hezbollah out of 250 civilians, no. Find an effective way of killing Hezbollah if that's your goal. I have no problem if you can do that.

Was it really that bad - 2 Hizbullah out of 250 killed?

But then, that's another thing that makes it hard to kill terrorists - they deliberately locate themselves in highly populated areas. The Hizb HQ is a prime example of this shamefully cowardly and irresponsible pattern. Legitimate military bodies, on the other hand, care enough about the civilian population, to clearly separate themselves from highly populated areas.

If SD's claim of about 80 civilian deaths at the airport is true, that certainly makes a case for Israeli disregard for minimizing collateral.

 

[Hurkyl]

So what about israel bombing civillians is untrue?

The "Israel are bombing civilians" part. "Israel bombed civilians" is not a correct description of, say, "Israel bombed a military target, and there were civilian casualties". And even if it was a correct description, the connotation it carries is extremely misleading.

What is it you are hoping to achieve here?

I thought it was clear. The major goals are:
(1) Severely reduce Hezbollah's capabilities.
(2) Get the Lebanese government to take control of their country.

The "non-war" course had already failed to achieve either -- over the past 6 (?) years, Lebanon didn't take control of the area, Hezbollah kept getting stronger. This campaign will achieve (1) directly (and hopefully it will last for a while), and while (2) isn't guaranteed, it seems to me that this campaign will certainly help.

it's hardly a way to garner favour with the rest of the world now is it?

Serious question: do you think that "favour with the rest of the world" will stop terrorist attacks on Israel?

Did you not already conceed that the marshal plan worked? ... After WW2

After WW2 is a key point here.

Yes I aggree get rid of hezbullah, but not at any expense.

Okay... then at what expense?

I feel sorry for your blight, but I truly think the "punishment" that is being given back to lebenon is totally disproportionate.

Er, this is not a war to "hurt them as much as they've hurt me". And this comment is ridiculous, because even if that was what this war was about, I'm certain you still wouldn't accept it.

For the people who are reading this thinking that Lebenon is a "Muslim" country or a radical islamic state out to terrorise Israel because of this.

Are there people who think that?? Everything I've heard about this war has made a clear distinction between Hezbollah and Lebanon. Lebanon is only a problem in so far as they have not prevented Hezbollah from operating. In fact, your comments are the only ones I've seen that could possibly induce any confusion (since you seem to equate attacks against Hezbollah with bringing down the Lebanese government).

 

[Cyrus]

I must say, I watched an interview with Nouhad Mahmoud, Foreign Ministry Representative, Lebanon. I think he's living in a delusional dream world the way he was answering questions...

 

[Anttech]

Are there people who think that?? Everything I've heard about this war has made a clear distinction between Hezbollah and Lebanon. Lebanon is only a problem in so far as they have not prevented Hezbollah from operating. In fact, your comments are the only ones I've seen that could possibly induce any confusion (since you seem to equate attacks against Hezbollah with bringing down the Lebanese government).

How on Earth did you conclude that?

Target hit:
Convoys of civilian Trucks
Airport
Bridges
Roads
Civilian Buildings
Hezbollah hide outs

Yeh they are all run by hezbollah

Perhaps you should speak to Israel then, because it is certain they are not making any distinction between Lebenon and Hezbollah

(2) Get the Lebanese government to take control of their country.

What a joke. Can you explain to me how shelling the capital city of Lebenon is going to enforce the control of the Lebenon goverment? its destablising it not allowing them more control.

After WW2 is a key point here.

So? What is your point?

Er, this is not a war to "hurt them as much as they've hurt me". And this comment is ridiculous, because even if that was what this war was about, I'm certain you still wouldn't accept it.

No its a tantrum ... A lashing out at Lebenon with the hope of killing a few terrorists

In fact, your comments are the only ones I've seen that could possibly induce any confusion

Yeeehh I guess the reason you concluded that was because I have clearly described the demography of Lebenon, and have been arguing that the Israeli's need to stop bombing all the free citizans of Lebenon and destroying a wonderful country? They need to Start negotiating with Hezbollah and allowing the International peacekeepers in.

If only Big Brother -- Bush would allow that!

 

[Yonoz]

I'm confused when you bombed that airport what were the civillian casualties, 79 wasn't it, something like that?

Not one person was harmed in the airport raid.

So what about israel bombing civillians is untrue?

If you mean it does so on purpose - then it's untrue.

The fact is the major casualties of this war, are civillian, men, women and children, are you denying this?

I'm saying there's no way to distinguish Hizbullah from civilian casualties, and that it's too soon to know any real figures.

Perhaps I insulted the IDF by claiming they couldn't kill more civillians if they tried? I apologise I've obviously cast aspersions on their skills.

You insulted me when you said Israel couldn't kill more civilians if it did so deliberately, implying that Israelis are heartless killers. You should keep such comments to yourself.

I watch the news every day and all I see is civillian casualties rising, are the lives of two soldiers recompensed by the lives of 300 dead civillians on both sides?

First, you should watch the news with more criticism. They are, after all, in the business of selling news. Lives cannot be "recompensed", don't think you're the only one with a moral conscience.

Is this teaching Hezbollah that their methods won't work, or by pounding them are you mereley making there iron resolve into steel?

It's not just teaching Hizbullah their methods won't work, it's protecting our civilians and that's what governments are meant to do. I suggest you listen to the second interview Astronuc posted, it presents the situation rather well.

Are all the other middle Eastern terrorist groups getting pissed with Israel, is their recruitment going to sky rocket, could fundementalist lunatics get any more partisan?

They might, but that would have occurred anyway the minute Hizbullah attacked that patrol amidst shelling settlements. We've tried appeasement, we've pulled out of Lebanon - look where it got us.

What is it you are hoping to achieve here?

Safety for Israel's civilians.

You seem to have a habbit of moving into the Lebanon getting bitten and then retreating, is this all just a little bit of history repeating?

That's only happened once - I wouldn't call that a habbit. This time there's no major incursions into Lebanon, just a demolition of Hizbullah's posts on the border, and special operations.

If you withdraw this time it'll be the 4th time IIRC, perhaps you should consider doing it before more lives are lost?

Withdraw from where? You seem to be badly misinformed, why don't you study the situation a little more before you make war crime accusations.

You made your point, how many more innocent people have to die?

I don't think Israel's point was made, Hizbullah is still firing on Israeli civilians.

Don't get me wrong I am impartial in this affair, I disagree equally with what both sides are doing and hope for peace. I personally find indiscriminately rocketing Israel to be cowardly and abhorrent, but this overkill startegy is lowering yourself to their level; it's hardly a way to garner favour with the rest of the world now is it?

Seems you're not impartial calling this an overkill. We've tried garnering favour enough, Israeli society is at a consensus that nothing we ever do will be enough for the rest of the world.

Personally I think this was a job for Mossad and special force units, not the IDF, a softly softly catchy monkey approach would have worked better IMO, at least it would have been more discriminate.

It's not like we've been sitting on our asses all this time. Every bomb delivered requires years of intelligence gathering, and we couldn't just go and attack every house storing weapons in Lebanon, there were well over 12000 rockets there.

 

[vanesch]

Can you give, in fair detail, an alternative solution to the situation Israel has found itself in?

I think it became a "law of nature" now. Israel will always be doing this, as long as it exists, and will always be attacked by terrorists, as long as it exists.
This is now based upon ~50 years of data taking, without any empirical failure has been observed to this law.

Accumulated terrorist attacks on Israel induce responses by the IDF into their neighbour's territory, lots of casualties, etc... which then induces sympathy for the terrorist organisations, support, money, arms, recruites, ... and the cycle starts over again. How do you see any end to this ? Even if you destroy Hezbollah, another organization will take over.

So I guess we simply should get used to it.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Safety for Israel's civilians.

You will fail though, that's the problem the more people you kill the more hatred you stir up and the more terror attacks you will suffer in the future, Whilst I think you can't gain peace in the middle East at the moment, resolving the palestinian issue is not going to come from war, nor is this issue nor are any issues, throwing fire at terrorism just makes it burn brighter? Do people not get this yet?

And Israel has made more than just 1 incursion into the Lebanon, I suggest you study the history from 1920 onwards before you point out that I have not done any reading, well we have heard that 67 people died in the airport attack, it was during the day when the airport would have been busy right? And no one died, I suggest you treat your own news with more discrimination too.

Nothing is being achieved hear and none of those goals that have been outlined on this thread will be achieved, I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it. The Lebanese government is not going to do anything about hezbollah and terrorism is merely going to grow from this war. Kill one terrorist and three replace him.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I think it became a "law of nature" now. Israel will always be doing this, as long as it exists, and will always be attacked by terrorists, as long as it exists.
This is now based upon ~50 years of data taking, without any empirical failure has been observed to this law.

Accumulated terrorist attacks on Israel induce responses by the IDF into their neighbour's territory, lots of casualties, etc... which then induces sympathy for the terrorist organisations, support, money, arms, recruites, ... and the cycle starts over again. How do you see any end to this ? Even if you destroy Hezbollah, another organization will take over.

So I guess we simply should get used to it.

That's because you can't see peace as a viable option. Now or in the future. It has come close but no one has ever tried it, but of course it can't work? Why is this?

 

[vanesch]

That's because you can't see peace as a viable option.

*I* see peace of course as a viable option, but they don't !

Over the last 50 years, several strategies have been tried, agreements have been made, battles have been fought, bombs have been placed, countries have been invaded, civilians have been killed, withdrawals have been executed, prisoners have been released, secret actions have been performed...

and nothing has really changed.

 

[kyleb]

Well what is "other reasonable means" and what would constitute a "valid effort"? We can go around in circles forever with this (and with SOS too) - 'war is not the answer' is a slogan, not a means for achieving peace. It is easy to criticize, but you guys are not providing real solutions. If you can't think of a "reasonable means", perhaps that is because there isn't one?

Israel has tried things such as unilateral withdrawals from occupied territories and going to the bargaining table. The other side has not budged an inch from their stance of requiring Israel's annihilation. Which side is making a "reasonable" effort and which isn't?

Let us not go around in any circles here, please tell me your own opinion; what reasonable means did Israel peruse to clear the boarder of Hezbollah prior to the attacks?

 

[Yonoz]

You will fail though, that's the problem the more people you kill the more hatred you stir up and the more terror attacks you will suffer in the future, Whilst I think you can't gain peace in the middle East at the moment, resolving the palestinian issue is not going to come from war, nor is this issue nor are any issues, throwing fire at terrorism just makes it burn brighter? Do people not get this yet?

Let's go through this one more time - this has little to do with the Palestinians. It is on a grander scale than the Palelstinian-Israeli conflict. This is a proxy war by Iran, the Palestinian issue is simply very convenient for them. Israel pulled out of Lebanon 6 years ago and Hizbulla is attacking Israeli civilians from Lebanese territory. Please be more accurate.

And Israel has made more than just 1 incursion into the Lebanon, I suggest you study the history from 1920 onwards before you point out that I have not done any reading, well we have heard that 67 people died in the airport attack, it was during the day when the airport would have been busy right? And no one died, I suggest you treat your own news with more discrimination too.

Israel was only formed in 1948. The only incursion apart from the Lebanese war was the Litany operation in 1978 in which Israel was not "bitten" but actually met little resistance since the PLO forces retreated beyond the operation's scope. Again, no one was hurt in the attack on the airport. Funny how your initial

I'm confused when you bombed that airport what were the civillian casualties, 79 wasn't it, something like that?

has turned into

well we have heard that 67 people died in the airport attack, it was during the day when the airport would have been busy right? And no one died

Nothing is being achieved hear and none of those goals that have been outlined on this thread will be achieved, I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it.

Let's wait until this is over instead of just speculating.

The Lebanese government is not going to do anything about hezbollah and terrorism is merely going to grow from this war. Kill one terrorist and three replace him.

It appears they are going to do something, as PM Siniora himself said Hizbullah will be disarmed and his military will deploy in south Lebanon.

 

[Yonoz]

Let us not go around in any circles here, please tell me your own opinion; what reasonable means did Israel peruse to clear the boarder of Hezbollah prior to the attacks?

Repeated calls to the Lebanese government and the UN, meetings with UNIFIL officials, supersonic booms over major cities and limited strikes against Syrian targets.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

*I* see peace of course as a viable option, but they don't !

Over the last 50 years, several strategies have been tried, agreements have been made, battles have been fought, bombs have been placed, countries have been invaded, civilians have been killed, withdrawals have been executed, prisoners have been released, secret actions have been performed...

and nothing has really changed.

But to say peace will never work is hypothesis, since it has never been tried how can you make this assumption without evidence? I think you should of said with the current situation you can't see a solution, but things change so to make that concrete assumption is meaningless in the context of your lifetime or your childrens, or their children's children, you have no idea what may happen two hundred years down the line.

Both sides have been guilty of stalling peace processes and wasting time, I did think Israel had the moral high ground for a while and thought it was genuinely trying to work towards peace but then it voted in Sharon, things deteriorated and this lead in part to Hamas being voted in, responding to hard line with hard line. I think the middle east needs moderates on all sides, people willing to work towards compromise, not their own advantage but mutual advantage, but I sense this will be a long process and little will be achieved by stirring up hatred on either side, Israel is never going to quell terrorism and the Arabs are never going to see Israel toppled, so what do you do when you have an unwinnable situation? lose gracefully, and that goes for all the involved sides.

 

[kyleb]

Washington questions how a security force in Lebanon could stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel, while blatantly ignoring the fact that Israel's attacks are escalating Hezbollash responses.

I don't get this - Hizbullah attacked Israeli *civilians* on the Israeli side of the border for the umpteenth time since the pullout. Israel responds by attacking Hizbullah's weapons. Why are you saying Israel is escalating this?

How many Hizbullah attacks since Israeli started attacking compared to Hizbullah attacks in the same number of days before that? That is the escalation I am speaking of.

Here's a http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/79/943223" . Note it's only for Wednesday, you can use the link on the bottom left to see the previous days. Now imagine that was your country - would you do any calculation about your response?

Yonoz, could you please answer my question? How many Hizbullah attacks has there been since Israeli started attacking compared to Hizbullah attacks in the same number of days before that?

kyleb, it occurs to me you have no real grasp of the dynamics in this region. Here's an article to help you understand why Hizbullah is bad for the Middle East:
http://www.waronline.org/en/analysis/pal_weapons.htm"

With that can we get it to occur to you that you are dodging my question and hence ignoring my point? You ask me "Why are you saying Israel is escalating this?" If you'd answer my question instead of accusing me of not understanding something that I most certainly do understand, then you would have the answer to your question.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Let's go through this one more time - this has little to do with the Palestinians. It is on a grander scale than the Palelstinian-Israeli conflict. This is a proxy war by Iran, the Palestinian issue is simply very convenient for them. Israel pulled out of Lebanon 6 years ago and Hizbulla is attacking Israeli civilians from Lebanese territory. Please be more accurate.

Israel was only formed in 1948. The only incursion apart from the Lebanese war was the Litany operation in 1978 in which Israel was not "bitten" but actually met little resistance since the PLO forces retreated beyond the operation's scope. Again, no one was hurt in the attack on the airport. Funny how your initial has turned into

Let's wait until this is over instead of just speculating.
It appears they are going to do something, as PM Siniora himself said Hizbullah will be disarmed and his military will deploy in south Lebanon.

Yonez can you provide links that this is Iran pulling the strings? People voice this opinion but they have no proof and frankly it's tiresome conspiracy theory at its worst, yes they do suppley Hezbolah with guns etc, but Syria has the control over this organisation, and pointing the finger at Iran is meaningless without something concrete.

So you meet my speculation with speculation? It appears we agree to differ, just because people don't have a state doesn't mean they aren't capable of war, You'd think you of all people would realize this
I think you are in for a long an arduous process that will ultimately be unsatisfying, you think you can win this, all we can do is wait and see.

 

[kyleb]

Repeated calls to the Lebanese government and the UN, meetings with UNIFIL officials, supersonic booms over major cities and limited strikes against Syrian targets.

Lebanese government can barely keep themselves together, let alone are they in any position to remove a Hezbollah from the boader, and supersonic booms are strikes on Syria obviously aren't any way to get Hezbollah off the boarder either. Working UN and UNIFIL officals can be helpful though, when and what exactly was the last time Israel made a valid effort to resolve the problem of Hezbollah that way?

Let's go through this one more time - this has little to do with the Palestinians. It is on a grander scale than the Palelstinian-Israeli conflict. This is a proxy war by Iran, the Palestinian issue is simply very convenient for them. Israel pulled out of Lebanon 6 years ago and Hizbulla is attacking Israeli civilians from Lebanese territory. Please be more accurate.

Please stop disregarding the Palestinian land's religious significance to the Muslim world.

 

[Yonoz]

But to say peace will never work is hyptohesis, since it has never been tried how can you make this assumption without evidence?

Again, refer to Gokul's list of major Israeli concessions.

I think you should of said with the current situation you can't see a solution, but things change so to make that concrete assumption is meaningless in the context of your lifetime or your childrens, or their children's children, you have no idea what may happen two hundred years down the line.

That's why I think it will be at least 2 or 3 generations before peace comes to the region.

Both sides have been guilty of stalling peace processes and wasting time, I did think Israel had the moral high ground for a while and thought it was genuinely trying to work towards peace but then it voted in Sharon, things deteriorated and this lead in part to Hamas being voted in, responding to hard line with hard line.

You're forgetting the mass of suicide bombings before that. If you examine the situation you'll find that after the Oslo accords the first violence was entirely Palestinian, but that's for another thread...

I think the middle east needs moderates on all sides, people willing to work towards compromise, not their own advantage but mutual advantage, but I sense this will be a long process and little will be achieved by stirring up hatred on either side, Israel is never going to quell terrorism and the Arabs are never going to see Israel toppled, so what do you do when you have an unwinnable situation? lose gracefully, and that goes for all the involved sides.

I've been involved in peace movements for quite a few years. There are many Israelis doing a lot to end this. But we see very little action on the other side. These days it's a little different, it seems everyone's disillusioned and has given up on true peace, but around about the time surrounding the Oslo accords Israelis were really acting on the prospect of peace with the Palestinians.

 

[kyleb]

Israel has never shown ready to fully remove presence from inside Palestine's boarders.

 

[Yonoz]

Yonez can you provide links that this is Iran pulling the strings? People voice this opinion but they have no proof and frankly it's tiresome conspiracy theory at its worst, yes they do suppley Hezbolah with guns etc, but Syria has the control over this organisation, and pointing the finger at Iran is meaningless without something concrete.

Hizbullah was founded by Iran, it's funded by it, they supply them with weapons, their ideology is based on Khoumeini's and they're trained by Iranian revolutionary guard. Do your own research, I've already asked you to listen to the NPR shows before you bring any more silliness into this discussion. It's all there.

So you meet my speculation with speculation?

Nope, like I said, listen to the recording. They're quite open about it.

It appears we agree to differ, just because people don't have a state doesn't mean they aren't capable of war, You'd think you of all people would realize this

Are we talking about war or incursions? What I said remains true nevertheless.

I think you are in for a long an arduous process that will ultimately be unsatisfying, you think you can win this, all we can do is wait and see.

That's exactly what myself, and the rest of Israel's citizens are doing. We'll wait, united, as long as it takes.

 

[Yonoz]

Lebanese government can barely keep themselves together, let alone are they in any position to remove a Hezbollah from the boader

I beg to differ. They have a full fledged military. They can ask for help from other nations. They can stop Hizbullah's buildup or at least curb it. They have done nothing and that is why Israel has no choice but to do it itself.

supersonic booms are strikes on Syria obviously aren't any way to get Hezbollah off the boarder either.

duh.

Working UN and UNIFIL officals can be helpful though, when and what exactly was the last time Israel made a valid effort to resolve the problem of Hezbollah that way?

It's done routinely every time there's the smallest incident. Why do you think it can be helpful? All it's done is create hiding places for Hizbullah weapons.

Please stop disregarding the Palestinian land's religious significance to the Muslim world.

I'm not. Are you justifying Hizbullah's attacks?

 

[Yonoz]

Israel has never shown ready to fully remove presence from inside Palestine's boarders.

What do you call Palestine's borders? If you think the Israeli actions in Lebanon are excessive, what do you think about the Muslim world's behaviour towards Israel? Would you call it proportionate? Why is it when Kurds, Shiites, Sunnys, Assyrians are killed by other Arabs it goes unnoticed and when a Jewish state defends itself it's the root of all evil the modern world?

 

[vanesch]

But to say peace will never work is hypothesis, since it has never been tried how can you make this assumption without evidence?

Well, you can only look at the dynamics and extrapolate from that. 50 years of terrorism, 50 years of Israel dancing back and fro between pulling back and hitting hard, lot's of "attempts to peace", and lots of shattered agreements. Evidence enough. Why would it change now all of a sudden?

It becomes part of the tradition and culture there.

you have no idea what may happen two hundred years down the line.

True. Maybe Israel won't exist anymore, or maybe there will have been a major conflict in the area which completely changed all the cards, or maybe humanity will not be here anymore (or at least not in its present form). But as long as Arab nations exist in more or less their present form, and Israel exists, this will go on and on.

Both sides have been guilty of stalling peace processes and wasting time, I did think Israel had the moral high ground for a while and thought it was genuinely trying to work towards peace but then it voted in Sharon, things deteriorated and this lead in part to Hamas being voted in, responding to hard line with hard line.

Yes, but that's just part of the entire dynamics. You cannot expect Israel to sit on its ass for 15 years while its citizens are being terrorized. You cannot expect large populations in Arab countries who have a distilled hate against Israel (for many reasons, cultural, religious, historical, vendetta-like revenge for family victims,...) not in one way or another to refrain from giving birth to terrorist groups (and their popular support) to go and terrorize Iraeli population. So I don't see how this infernal cycle can ever come to a halt.

I think the middle east needs moderates on all sides, people willing to work towards compromise, not their own advantage but mutual advantage, but I sense this will be a long process and little will be achieved by stirring up hatred on either side, Israel is never going to quell terrorism and the Arabs are never going to see Israel toppled, so what do you do when you have an unwinnable situation? lose gracefully, and that goes for all the involved sides.

What does that mean, lose gracefully ? For the Israelis, just sit on their ass while bombs go off and cities are under rocket fire ? For how many years ? Without voting in for a hardliner who promises to hit back ?
And for Arabs, to change the mind of their populations, against all the grieves they have for a multitude of reasons, so that not one single terrorist comes out of it ?

 

[Yonoz]

Well put vanesch.

 

[MeJennifer]

a Jewish state

Perhaps that is the problem the Arabs have with Israel.

Why do you call it a Jewish state? What about all those people who live in Israel who are not Jewish? To build a state on some religion/ethnicity/race (pick your choice or a combination of those) is just asking for trouble IMHO.

What about the apartheid in Israel? What about the "problem" some Israeli's see in non-Jews becoming a majority? What about the disrespect for Palestinians, bulldozing the homes of families, closing schools so that children cannot get education, bombing power stations so that civilians cannot get electricity. When you treat people like monsters they will become monsters to you!


When nations are built on race, ethnicity or religion you can expect that those who don't "belong" see it as a problem.

 

[Yonoz]

Perhaps that is the problem the Arabs have with Israel.

Why do you call it a Jewish state? What about all those people who live in Israel who are not Jewish? To build a state on some religion/ethnicity/race (pick your choice or a combination of those) is just asking for trouble IMHO.

We're sorry we've set up our own state. I guess we should've stayed in the diaspora and emancipated or better yet, let ourselves die in pogroms and holocausts. How egotistical of us.

What about the apartheid in Israel? What about the "problem" some Israeli's see in non-Jews becoming a majority?

There's no apartheid here. I don't think a black person headed the interior ministry during the apartheid. I don't think there were black parties in the parliament during the apartheid. I'm quite sure there were no black people in the security forces or in the government during the apartheid. I don't think there were equal rights and quotas for black people to be admitted to universities during the apartheid. I don't think there was a black autonomy whose inhabitants elected their own parliament, government, president, had their own armed security forces and had those forces fight the apartheid government. What on Earth are you talking about?!

When nations are built on race, ethnicity or religion you can expect that those who don't "belong" see it as a problem.

Please do not condescend me. You are in no position to judge us. What are you - christian, muslim, hindu, shintu, buddhist? All these religions and many others have their own place they can call "home". A place where they can be sure no one will ever persecute them because of their religion. Try living in a foreign land for a part of your life. Now imagine there's nowhere you do not feel foreign. Every nation needs a national home. Israel is the only national home Jews have ever had. The rest of the world has realized Israel has a basic right of existence. This does not simply mean the existence of a state named Israel, but the existence of such a state as a home for Jews. It's time the Muslim world accepted that.
It's funny how the very sons and daughters of imperialist nations that once raped entire continents are imposing their ivory tower "morals" on the one nation that has known no peace for 3000 years.

 

[kyleb]

Lebanese government can barely keep themselves together

I beg to differ. They have a full fledged military. They can ask for help from other nations. They can stop Hizbullah's buildup or at least curb it. They have done nothing and that is why Israel has no choice but to do it itself.

Israel had the choice to ask for help too.

and supersonic booms are strikes on Syria obviously aren't any way to get Hezbollah off the boarder either.

duh.

I'm glad to see you admit that those were just strawmen in your list.

Working UN and UNIFIL officals can be helpful though, when and what exactly was the last time Israel made a valid effort to resolve the problem of Hezbollah that way?

It's done routinely every time there's the smallest incident. Why do you think it can be helpful? All it's done is create hiding places for Hizbullah weapons.

Now specificly, when and what was the last valid effort Israel made to resolve the problem of Hezbollah by working with UN or UNIFIL officals?

Let's go through this one more time - this has little to do with the Palestinians. It is on a grander scale than the Palelstinian-Israeli conflict. This is a proxy war by Iran, the Palestinian issue is simply very convenient for them. Israel pulled out of Lebanon 6 years ago and Hizbulla is attacking Israeli civilians from Lebanese territory. Please be more accurate.

Please stop disregarding the Palestinian land's religious significance to the Muslim world.

I'm not. Are you justifying Hizbullah's attacks?

No, I'm explaining the strong relationship the whole Muslim world has with the Palelstinian-Israeli conflict.

 

[russ_watters]

Did you not already conceed that the marshal plan worked? Perhaps readup on your history.

Perhaps you could reread my post... The Marshall plan required the conquering and unconditional surrender of Japan and Germany before it could begin.

WW1 left germany in a bad way, the people got angry voted in a megalomanica FACIST and voila WW2 killing another 15 Million people. After WW2 YOUR government together with many others put the marshal plan into action, it created well being amount the Axis and no more war!

The Logic is really very straight forward.

Yes, the logic is straightforward -its the situation (the premise) that is different. You can't have a Marshall Plan until you conquer the country that you are going to implement it in.

 

[russ_watters]

Let us not go around in any circles here, please tell me your own opinion; what reasonable means did Israel peruse to clear the boarder of Hezbollah prior to the attacks?

I thought it was clear that my opinion is that there is no reasonable means besides force. You, not me, are the one claiming a reasonable means exists and so it is up to you to argue that point. You're trying to get me to argue your point for you!

 

[russ_watters]

But to say peace will never work is hypothesis, since it has never been tried how can you make this assumption without evidence?

I'll say it again: 'give peace a chance' is a slogan, not a course of action. You can't try peace, it either exists or it doesn't. What you can do is try courses of action that can lead to peace. And these courses of action can involve force of arms or diplomacy. So what you are really asking is why doesn't Israel try a nonmilitary course of action?

The answer is, Israel has, tried both military and diplomatic courses of action in attempts to achieve peace. All attempts have failed.

The PA/Hamas/Hezbolla have never tried a non-military course of action aimed at achieving peace. And yes, I recognize that they have sat at bargaining tables before and that there have been truces, but truces are temporary stops of fighting (not peace) and the position taken at the bargaining table has always included the distruction of Israel.

 

[kyleb]

Israel has never shown ready to fully remove presence from inside Palestine's boarders.

What do you call Palestine's borders? If you think the Israeli actions in Lebanon are excessive, what do you think about the Muslim world's behaviour towards Israel? Would you call it proportionate? Why is it when Kurds, Shiites, Sunnys, Assyrians are killed by other Arabs it goes unnoticed and when a Jewish state defends itself it's the root of all evil the modern world?

What do you think of when you hear someone speak of Palestine's borders, surely you must have a reasonable answer for that question yourself?

 

[russ_watters]

Israel has never shown ready to fully remove presence from inside Palestine's boarders.

Besides not being a sentence, that is so vague as to be meaningless. Since the borders themselves are in dispute and the most coherent thing the PA and Arab countries say is Israel needs to disappear entirely, Israel can't say it will "fully remove presence" unless everyone in the country decides to commit mass suicide. But Israel has stated that they are willing to withdraw to some negotiated position. They've even gone to the spectacularly unique step of unilaterally withdrawing from some occupied territories.

And the Arabs have not even said they will agree to any peace.

We keep getting back to that: you guys say Israel needs to do more. More is arguable, but what you like to ignore is that the PA/Arabs has/have done nothing.

 

[russ_watters]

This is what coherent peace plans look like: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-05-25-peace-points_x.htm Please notice step 1:

Phase One: Begins with statements by both sides renouncing violence and affirming the right of the other side to a state.

And therein lies the reason 'peace never gets a chance'. Quite simply, only one side is willing to accept it. The other refuses to renounce violence.

 

[kyleb]

So Russ, specificly, what do you think of when you hear someone speak of Palestine's borders? I can provide a map for you to mark your opinion on if need be.