News Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[kyleb]

Those facts are precisely the relationship between the current conflict in Lebanon and the continuing incursion and occupation of Palestinian land.

 

[muadib2k]

Those facts are precisely the relationship between the current conflict in Lebanon and the continuing incursion and occupation of Palestinian land.

The current conflict was most likely initiated by Iran on the eve of the G8 summit. Iran is under a lot of stress due to its nuclear ambitions and the gathering of the G8 would have no doubt produced even more pressure. By activating a second front through its proxy in Lebanon, world focus is shifted away from its nuclear issues and onto the newly created conflict.

Believe it or not but Hamas and Hizbullah do not hold much love for each other as they belong to different sects of Islam (i.e. the same difference that currently fuels the civil war in Iraq and fueled the Iraq-Iran war).

 

[kyleb]

My point is that they all want to retain Palestinian control of the land which is being lost, and that is what fuels the aggression of such organizations as well as cooperation between them.

 

[Yonoz]

My point is that they all want to retain Palestinian control of the land which is being lost, and that is what fuels the aggression of such organizations as well as cooperation between them.

That's oversimplified IMO. Israel bothers these organisations more because it's a regional power that their masters oppose.
To undermine the stability of thew peace process, Iran pays Palestinian terror cells to attack the crossings that are the Gaza strip's lifeline. They do this because they know Israel will close the crossings and create instability in the strip.

 

[kyleb]

I contest that your use of prase "regional power" is greatly oversimplifying the situation considering the http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/html/settlements_checkpoints.stm" . That more than a regional power, it is widespread occupation with continuing expansion on land which has cultural and religious significance to the Muslim world.

 

[Yonoz]

I contest that your use of prase "regional power" is greatly oversimplifying the situation considering the http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/html/settlements_checkpoints.stm" . That more than a regional power, it is widespread occupation with continuing expansion on land which has cultural and religious significance to the Muslim world.

Israel pulled out of Lebanon 6 years ago, to an internationally recognised border. In return we got a hanging sword in the form of Hizbullah's rocket array. Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip and in return we get daily rockets on nearby towns and kibbutzim. These are not the actions of people who want to end the occupation. These actions are meant to halt the peace process, inflame the situation, reduce stability and plunge this region into war, from which Iran and Syria hope to emerge stronger.

 

[MeJennifer]

the peace process

There has not been any peace process there!

Peace process is just like soothing words, unreal, make believe.

 

[Gokul43201]

That more than a regional power, it is widespread occupation with continuing expansion on land which has cultural and religious significance to the Muslim world.

Continuing expansion?

In the last 15 or so years, we've had:

1. Rabin's signing of the Oslo Accords with the PLO in '93
2. Declaration of peace between Jordan and Israel in '94
3. Rejection of Oslo by Hamas; and a barrage of suicide bombings from them resulting in the election of the hardliner, Netanyahu
4. Withdrawal from the Hebron
5. Signing of the Wye River Memorandum giving greater power to the Palestinian Authority.
6. Barak initiates unilateral withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000
7. Barak's offer of Palestinian State on 90% of the West Bank and Gaza is rejected by Arafat during the Camp David talks
8. After failure of talks and subsequent Palestinian uprising (al-Aqsa), public sentiment turns against Barak
9. Sharon executes a unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005, but also proposes building of West Bank Barrier which effectively reannexes nearly 10% of the WB from Palestinian control.

 

[kyleb]

I'm talking about the continuing destruction of Palestinian homes and the construction of Israel settlements, surely you are aware of at least a little of that happening within the last 15 or so years?

 

[Office_Shredder]

By continuing construction of Israel settlements, I assume you're referring to that time last year when they withdrew from all of them in the Gaza strip?

Or are you talking about that plan they have to withdraw from the supermajority of them in the West Bank?

 

[kyleb]

I'm talking about the land they contenue to expand upon there. Are you honestly not aware of even a little of that?

 

[muadib2k]

I'm talking about the continuing destruction of Palestinian homes

Maybe if Hamas did not store is weapons, stage war or fire missiles from civilian homes, those home would not be destroyed.

I'm talking about the land they contenue to expand upon there. Are you honestly not aware of even a little of that?

I'm aware that Sharon got on the wrong side of many Israelis when he forced hundreds of families to evacuate their settlements not too long ago.

 

[kyleb]

But again, what about the new settlements and continuing occupation; do you not care to consider how those actions are perceived by Muslims?

 

[muadib2k]

continuing occupation

continuing occupation? What was wrong with the Barak deal that arafat had to reject it ?

new settlements

could you please define "new settlements" and possibly name some ?.

 

[Bystander]

But again, what about the new settlements and continuing occupation; do you not care to consider how those actions are perceived by Muslims?

Given that breathing is perceived by M(o,u)sl(e,i)ms as unacceptable activity by Israelis, does it make a difference?

 

[kyleb]

Bystander, stereotyping such as you did here is in the way of making a difference.

continuing occupation? What was wrong with the Barak deal that arafat had to reject it ?

could you please define "new settlements" and possibly name some ?.

By new settlements I mean stuff like http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/map/" . As for the deal, the offer wasn't made publicly so all we have are a few conflicting reports from insiders for that.

 

[vanesch]

Prior to the Roman empire (thousands of years ago) there was a country by the name of Israel situated in the same area where the modern state of Israel is. And thousands of years ago (thousands of years prior to creation of Islam), Jerusalem was the capital city.

Can anybody name a single historical Palestinian city ?

That is not to say that Palestinians have never lived in the region, but that there is clear evidance to the existence of an israeli country in that area that dates back 5000-6000 years.

All these historical references are of no meaning. As someone said here, then the US should be returned to the native Americans, Europe to the Neanderthals (of which there are no representatives anymore), Australia to the Aborigenes which themselves ousted another people before them (I think ~ 7th century or so), ...

The only reason of existence of a current country is that the people in power there, most recently had the biggest guns and/or most powerful friends. As long as they remain in that position, they are the legitime owners of the country. And the day that they get ousted themselves because someone comes in with bigger guns and more powerful friends, the invaders will be the new legitime owners of the country and the previous ones will be reduced to the status of terrorists/refugees/poor people. This is why the Australians are master in Australia, this is why the US citizens are master in the US, and why most people are master in their country.

So Israel's reason of existence is that they are there, have the biggest guns, and the most powerful friends. As is the case anywhere else.

 

[Bystander]

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p="i...prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&x=wrt

"Stereotyping?" Not really --- Ahmadinejad, Hamas, and H(e,i)zbollah may be out of step with the current "mainstream" PR campaign of "peace and love," and picking up a few "bad vibes" from surprising quarters (the Saudis among others).

Do the Palestinians have legitimate beefs? Sure. With their great grandfathers for being so stupid as to listen to Arab governments in the region in 1948 and playing "all or nothing" when the UN said, "New day, half and half" --- now they've got "nothing" but what the Israelis have given them, want more, and haven't figured out that biting the hand that feeds you is more than a little stupid. "Unto the seventh generation?" Means 'nother 30 years and some kid is going to say, "Grandfather, your great grandfather got his ass handed to him in 1948. You got your ass handed to you 30 years ago. Now you think I'm stupid enough to get my ass handed to me today because you and your father and his father and all of you were stupid? Forget it!"

 

[Office_Shredder]

By new settlements I mean stuff like http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/map/" . As for the deal, the offer wasn't made publicly so all we have are a few conflicting reports from insiders for that.

Look at the number of blue vs. orange settlements

 

[kyleb]

Look at all of it and note the continuing occupation and expansion on Palestinian land.

 

[Office_Shredder]

kyleb, there is quite clearly no expansion... in fact, more settlements were taken down than built up, and the new ones are already in heavy settlement areas.

And read the little legend! It even shows that the settlements are in territory under Israeli control after Oslo II.

 

[Anttech]

there is quite clearly no expansion.

http://www.google.be/search?hl=nl&h...t&cd=1&q=israeli+settlement+expansion&spell=1

Really come on, they have been at it for years.

 

[Office_Shredder]

A google link to websites isn't strong evidence. Especially when it doesn't respond to my claim that the Palestinians continue attacking despite recent Israeli moves to withdraw from Palestinian lands.

 

[Anttech]

I wasnt responding to that, I was responding to your erroneous claim that the Isreali's haven't been expanding there settlements. When it is clear that they have.

To respond to you claim: Of course the palestinians (the palestine 'terrorists/whatever') will contiune to attack, they are penned in, by a from their percpective, a hostile occupying force.

I don't condon what they do, nor do I condon what Israel is currently doing, nor do I condon Hez. current rocket attacks. Israel right now is showing how utterly incompitant they truly are as a govering body. What if they plunge the Middle east and perhaps the world into another war will because they can't stop having tantrums.

 

[kyleb]

I think he just wanted more simple and direct source, such as http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/04/11/bush.mideast/index.html" :

President Bush said Monday that Israel must honor its commitment to halt the expansion of settlements on the West Bank after a meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

 

[Gokul43201]

Israel right now is showing how utterly incompitant they truly are as a govering body. What if they plunge the Middle east and perhaps the world into another war will because they can't stop having tantrums.

And on the other hand:

Lebanon, right now, is showing how utterly incompetent they truly are, as a govering body. What if they plunge the Middle East, and perhaps the world, into another war because they can't stop having terrorists dictate government policy?

 

[MeJennifer]

Israel right now is showing how utterly incompitant they truly are as a govering body. What if they plunge the Middle east and perhaps the world into another war will because they can't stop having tantrums.

Well if the western world decides to get involved you cannot blame that on Israel. We in the west have the choice to get involved or not.
And as far as I am concerned we should not. Let them fight it out, what is it up to us?

 

[Yonoz]

What if they plunge the Middle east and perhaps the world into another war will because they can't stop having tantrums.

Let me remind you: Israel has been out of Lebanon for 6 years now. The border is internationally recognised. The UN security council has decided Lebanon should deploy its military along the border and disarm Hizbullah. They have done nothing remotely nearing this. Instead, Hizbullah has appointed a minister in the Lebanese government and is allowed to freely arm itself and harrass Israel. Hizbullah has set up positions all along the border, they've set up an array of over 10000 rockets targeted at Israeli population centers, and have attacked Israeli civilians and forces on the Israeli side of the internationally recognised border many times since the pullout. Every time Israel has delicately responded in a very limited scope and all this ever achieved was more support for Hizbullah. This last conflict was sparked when Hizbullah fired a heavy barrage on Israeli civilian settlements and military posts and attacked a patrol, killing several soldiers and abducting two from Israeli soil.
This is no tantrum. Israel is exercising its right to defend its citizens and border, and it is doing so with the support of the international community. In the first 5 days of the conflict Israeli planes have flown over 1000 sorties, trying to destroy weapons hidden inside civilian populations. The Lebanese death toll is extremely low considering the magnitude and nature of this attack. Of course, Hizbullah supporters and personnel deaths are reported as civilian deaths to inflate this number. International media reports are hysterical and inaccurate - for example, last night Sky news actually had a caption that read "Israeli air raid on Haifa". Haifa is Israel's largest city with a large petrochemical industry that Hizbullah's been trying to hit with Iranian made 300 mm rockets over the last few days.
Furthermore, Israel is demanding that a neighbouring country deploy its military on their shared border (what a tantrum indeed). It's demanding that its soldiers that were kidnapped on a peaceful border patrol on its soil be returned. It's asking that Hizbullah be disarmed. This is what a responsible leadership is obligated to do to protect its citizens - and so far it's been doing it well.
Olmert has promised to pull out of the West Bank during this term. It's clearly one of Hizbullah's aims to stop this. Anyone concerned with peace in the Middle East and the rest of the world should be supporting Israel's stand in the face of extortion and terror.

 

[Skyhunter]

When the militant wing of Hamas, with or without the consent of the ruling government tunneled under the border and captured an Israeli soldier, Israel bombed the electrical power plant that supplies 1 million plus innocent people. In the middle of summer in a desert. No more refrigeration, food spoils in a few days, no more water since it is supplied by electric pumps.

Is this responding in kind?

Israel rounds up Palestinians, keeps them in desert camps for 6 months without charges and let's most of them go without ever charging them, just like the U.S. in Guantanamo.

I don't agree with what Hamas or Hezbollah did, but to say Israel is within their rights to cut off the food and water to a million civilians is just plain wrong.

I believe Sharon would have negotiated. The current leaders, like our own, have no military background and are making catastrophic mistakes.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Ok, skyhunter. Who should Israel have negotiated with? The people whose main tenant is "destroy Israel", or the people who fund them?