Will LHC measure gravitational waves?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the potential for the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) to measure gravitational waves resulting from high-energy collisions, particularly involving heavy ions like gold or lead. Participants explore the feasibility of detecting gravitational effects in such extreme conditions and consider the limitations of current gravitational wave detectors like LIGO.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the extreme velocities in LHC collisions could create measurable gravitational impacts, suggesting that powerful collisions might produce minute vibrations.
  • Another participant argues that the kinematic effects of gravitational waves on colliding ions will be negligible, estimating gravitational effects to be smaller by about 10^-40 compared to electromagnetic forces, implying that the LHC alone will not detect gravitational effects.
  • Some participants propose that while LHC collisions might produce weak gravitational waves, they doubt that LIGO could detect them, citing stronger sources of gravitational waves that are more likely to be observed first.
  • A participant references a paper on gravitational wave theory, suggesting it may provide insights into the topic.
  • There is a discussion about estimating the magnitude of gravitational waves, with references to factors like distance and mass from astrophysical events such as merging black holes or neutron stars.
  • One participant speculates about conducting a stochastic test similar to the discovery of the Cosmic Microwave Background, considering the potential for noise plateaus during collisions, but raises concerns about quantum noise overshadowing any signals produced.
  • Another participant reflects on the challenges of detecting gravitational waves near the LHC due to the proximity of the detector to the collision points and the complexities of measuring signals amidst space-time perturbations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the likelihood of the LHC detecting gravitational waves, with some asserting that it is improbable while others entertain the possibility under certain conditions. No consensus is reached regarding the feasibility of such measurements.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations such as the dependence on the scale of gravitational effects compared to other forces, the challenges posed by quantum noise, and the need for precise measurements in a highly dynamic environment.

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Considering they will eventually be colliding gold or lead ions, will they measure or be able to measure the gravitational impact of the collisions?

Just curious since the velocity will be so extreme. I would think Tevatron would already have something to say about this, but I'm unsure of the interest in testing it due to the fact that I've not seen anything at all down this avenue.

I'd like to think such powerful collisions would create extremely minute, possibly measurable, vibrations. However, lacking the effort to run the numbers, I'm simply curious if anyone knows of any plan to test such.

Cheers.
 
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The kinematic effects of gravitational waves(or gravitons) on the colliding ions will be negligible. My guess is that gravitational effects will be smaller by about 10^-40(~the ratio of gravitational force to EM force between electrons ). So LHC alone will not detect effects due to gravity on particle collisions.

However it might be LHC collisions will also produce weak gravitational waves. It will be interesting to compute if experiments like LIGO can measure these waves. Maybe a gravitational detector can be placed near the LHC.
 
AFAIK there is no way that LIGO will be able to detect anything of the sort from the LHC. There are better sources out there, orders of magnitude stronger that will be detected first.
 
This paper by Schutz and Ricci, recently published in the arXiv is a review of grav. wave theory and contains much of interest. It's called " Gravitational Waves, Sources, and Detectors".

http://arxiv4.library.cornell.edu/abs/1005.4735
 
Last edited by a moderator:
nismaratwork said:
AFAIK there is no way that LIGO will be able to detect anything of the sort from the LHC. There are better sources out there, orders of magnitude stronger that will be detected first.

How does one roughly make an estimate of the magnitude?
 
Prathyush said:
How does one roughly make an estimate of the magnitude?

Distance and mass, such as in simulations of merging black holes, stellar collapse or merging neutron stars. All of this, and the distance from the detector.
 
I was just wondering if it was possible to execute a simple stochastic test much like the way the Cosmic Microwave Background was discovered. Perhaps there could be noise plateaus while collisions were in progress slightly above the inherent noise level of several high Q bar detectors which would be somewhat subtracted out. (laser interferometers probably don't have adequate precision if shrunk to a size that will fit close enough to any LHC collision point. That doesn't include having to assume the frequency and possible resonance thereof to get a signal.)

Thanks for that paper by the way. It was a great read, the data to confirm it is highly anticipated.

The thing that probably would make this impossible is quantum noise which is likely more powerful than any perturbation produced in the collisions.

Still it leaves one to wonder if it were possible to compare different collision points and subtract out the common noise. Would that leave some sort of noise plateau when the machine is in collision mode, different from one with the machine out of collision mode.

But then again, there is the whole premise of detector being within the same space-time perturbations, therefore making it impossible to produce any signal that didn't change the measurable with respect to the detector. The quantization (slice) of time required to make such a test would probably have to be unimaginably small.

Again, untrained enthusiast spewing of the mind.
Thanks!
 

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