News Will the US reintroduce the draft?

[solutions in a box]

I don't like to get involved in these kind of things very often, but, to be honest, you have a pretty high flame to substance ratio, yourself. One post with 6 sentences of flame and 2 stating your opinion about the subject. One post with 2 sentences of flame and 3 about the subject.

The last wasn't too bad. Not much support, but at least all the sentences addressed the subject.

Bob G. At least your critisim was accurate and to the point. I did get caught up in the situation. Our nations social agenda is changing rapidly, some changes have been very covert.

The section in the no child left behind act which deals with schools and the miltary is one of the rottenest I have ever seen.

It is difficult to post a substantiating link here. As you have seen they are quickly torn appart by, and obscured by, someones political agenda. Yet those same neocons or Libertarians? seldom post anything to verify their own views.

http://www.utexas.edu/research/pasp/publications/dylan/15dec04.html

 

[Townsend]

The section in the no child left behind act which deals with schools and the miltary is one of the rottenest I have ever seen.

No link required...I have all the information I need in that one sentence. Why is this the "rottenest" change if it is really much of a change at all? Let's get at the heart of the matter shall we?

 

[solutions in a box]

No link required...I have all the information I need in that one sentence.

Well well little man that petty much tells it all doesn't it.

 

[Townsend]

Well well little man that petty much tells it all doesn't it.

What do you mean? Are you attempting to denigrate my point? Why don't you want to talk about this like civilized humans?

What is in that link that is so telling that we need to discuss it? I want to know why YOU in your own words, without paraphrasing someone else, think what you do. That is the heart of the issue.

This issue is not about whether this is happening; I agree it is...what do you need a link for? To prove what no one is disputing or so that I can read someone elses opinion? That’s stupid, sorry but it is. Tell me why you have a problem or I will just assume that you are incapable of engendering an original thought.

Regards

 

[BobG]

Bob G At least you are reading the posts

It is hard not to get caught up in the flames when ones personal integrity has been challenged. It even sucked me in for awhile. But that is what trolling is all about isn't it? Perhaps "solutions was trying to fight fire with fire.
There have been several credible links posted on this thread. On page six I posted from A DOD web site:

"Joiners. Demographically, Joiners are predominantly from less well-to-do working or lower middle-class homes. They tend, as well, to reside in smaller towns or rural environments. Most of the youth in this category have a familial tradition of military service and/or extensive contact with people serving in the military. Their familiarity with military life, also, is generally greater than that for youth in any of the other propensity groups, although this familiarity does not always prove a positive influence. Some of the descriptions of military life lead to ambivalence about enlisting in the military."

It seems to me that this supports "solutions" last reply. And bear in mind that the link was referred to as crap and B. S. and not from the DOD.

I think the biggest problem I have with the article is that it seems to take the different groups and try to lump them into a single 'typical' recruit, if not explicitly, then at least implicitly. There is some truth to each of the parts individually.

Certainly, the benefits offered by the military would be attractive to middle to lower-middle class to youth from towns like Buffalo, NY and Akron, OH. There's no future in a lot of those rust belt towns - they've been declining in population for over two decades. A young person in a town like that would be much more willing to venture out into an unknown environment. (That was my original motivation to join the military - I just enjoyed it enough that I stuck around.)

And, certainly, youth that have grown up in military families have a fairly realistic view of military life and it isn't even that much of a venture into the unkown for them. That applies to the families of officers as much as it does enlisted and family income or opportunities in civilian life don't even come into play.

Growing up in a hick town is a completely different environment and gives its own motivation for finding some way to a more interesting future.

The article lists different types of groups that would find the military most attractive, not the 'typical' recruit.

Edit: In fact, probably the most significant point in the article came at the end. Aside from non-joiners who were pretty firm in not considering the military, about 40 out of 89 were originally placed in the right category before in-depth interviews. The variation could have been due as much to the time between the original classification and the in-depth interviews as it could getting better information during the in-depth interview. I would suspect that youth pondering what path to take in their lives would experience quite a bit of shifting in what they felt their best options were. How many kids in college change their major between the time they enrolled and graduated? You can drop out of college or transfer to a different college. Having to commit for a set amount of time with no easy way out of that commitment has to be a big step for someone with little familiarity with the military.

 

[Townsend]

Well well little man that petty much tells it all doesn't it.

Oh and here's a precious link where you can read all about your ad hominem aka, personal attack...

Regards,

 

[The Smoking Man]

I have noticed a pattern from people who have no logical argument to support their position. It seems as though they will often resort to using personal insults. They reason that by attacking the person or their character they can denigrate that person position.

Oh and here's a percious link about your ad hominem

Regards,

Actually, that is why I stopped posting here. I watched as you took links posted by others and myself and dismissed them out of hand, questioning the sources but never offering one of your own.

Often you completely ignored source material and honed in on some sentence containing a minor point.

You imagine yourself to BE a credible source like a lot of ex-military I have seen and think that because you once put on a uniform, you have some superior knowledge of what it is to run a free society.

You forget the words that begin your Constitution ...

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

[SOS2008]

Now you have almost got it.You are assuming that just republicans are taxpayers, is that it?

If the liberals are "biting the hand that feeds," apparently so.

...being indentured and controlled by the state. ...Must they all 'drink the koolaide' to prove they are loyal and have the right to live in America?.

You just described boot camp, and the only other organization as effective at brainwashing are fundamentalist religions--Christianity, not just Islam

This article is crap...most people who come from military families are considered well to do. Exactly the opposite of what this article is saying. So I say BS.

Reliable source please.

You people are the worst ever...

Yes, how disgusting being open minded rather than being a militant hawk (BTW, look up the word "progressive" -- it's a compliment ).

...And if they refuse to do so and they are the majority of the population and the majority of the population refuses the draft, do you think the government is correct in acting against the majority of the people by deliberately acting against the will of the democracy by penalizing them for 'not paying'?

Again, do you believe the government reflects the will of the people or the people reflect the will of the government?

The staunch Bush supporters (fundamentalists and neocons) believe many things, including that they are the majority and that Bush is the greatest president in U.S. history because he represents "the people." Oh, and don't bother with evidence such as polls--obviously they don't believe empirical quantification of the majority view.

...Liberals tend to believe that the government owe things like welfare and health care and jobs. ...The libs want to get a good job working at a company that has a GOV contract, they want free health care, free education and they don't think that anyone should have to do a dame thing to get it...

Since liberals are all about welfare, I guess "leftist" organizations are getting their donations from Republicans. And since liberals all want free health care, education, etc., I guess they are enlisting in the military. And I suppose the wealthy work really hard to get their inheritance. As for government contracts/handouts, that wouldn't include defense contractors...or even well-to-do doctors who go after medicaid (just to name a few examples)?

Wow, you're so "on message."

 

[Townsend]

Actually, that is why I stopped posting here. I watched as you took links posted by others and myself and dismissed them out of hand, questioning the sources but never offering one of your own.

Often you completely ignored source material and honed in on some sentence containing a minor point.

I ignored sources that are in my opinion worthless. What? I can't do that?

You imagine yourself to BE a credible source like a lot of ex-military I have seen and think that because you once put on a uniform, you have some superior knowledge of what it is to run a free society.

I know what I have experienced and that is what I have been saying over and over again. Do I need to get a domain name so I can post a link to my opinions?

You forget the words that begin your Constitution ...

What the heck are you talking about? Please don't preach to me about the Constitution, ok.


Do I have to put it in bold for some of you to read it? It is my opinion and I am entitled to it. I am not stating things as facts. Do you have a problem with me expressing my opinion from my experiences? I am interested in hearing what you have to say about things in your own words. Nobody is arguing what is fact here and so there is no reason to post any links.

What is wrong with you people? Seriously? You act like you cannot stand someone who speaks against your position.

 

[Townsend]

If the liberals are "biting the hand that feeds," apparently so.

Good argument...

You just described boot camp,

No, boot camp is straight forward about it...they own you. Brainwashing is what you get from advertising not boot camp.

and the only other organization as effective at brainwashing are fundamentalist religions

Yeah right, you are smart enough to know things like advertising are more effective at brainwashing then even the dems...

(BTW, look up the word "progressive" -- it's a compliment ).

Sure, if you think the New Deal is the best thing since math then maybe.

The staunch Bush supporters (fundamentalists and neocons) believe many things, including that they are the majority and that Bush is the greatest president in U.S. history because he represents "the people." Oh, and don't bother with evidence such as polls--obviously they don't believe empirical quantification of the majority view.

Ok, generalize all you want, I can do it too.

Since liberals are all about welfare, I guess "leftist" organizations are getting their donations from Republicans. And since liberals all want free health care, education, etc., I guess they are enlisting in the military.

Are you saying that liberals (which by the way the true liberals were force to call themselves conservative so they were not aligned with the New Deal) don't want those things? I was under the impression that Liberals championed equality of result. Perhaps you need to check your political compass. Either that or you are being too vague for me to make sense of what you're saying.

And I suppose the wealthy work really hard to get their inheritance.

Sorry you were not born with a rich daddy and have to make a living. I'll call the wambulance for you. (Townsend hands SOS2008 a tissue)

 

[Townsend]

You forget the words that begin your Constitution ...

You need to take the time to read the Federalist papers No. 10 and 51. Then talk to me about the Constitution ok.

 

[SOS2008]

This article is crap...most people who come from military families are considered well to do. Exactly the opposite of what this article is saying. So I say BS.

Reliable source please.

Sorry you were not born with a rich daddy and have to make a living. I'll call the wambulance for you. (Townsend hands SOS2008 a tissue)

Reliable source please.

You continually prove your lack of credibility to claim you know anything.

 

[Townsend]

Reliable source please.
Reliable source please.

That is my opinion...I am not saying its fact, can you understand that? I am asking because it seems like no matter how many times I keep saying it you seem to ignore it...

I do, however know a lot of military people and I think that counts for something. Do you want proof of that?

Why, please answer this question, do I have to source a link to express my opinion? I really want to know.

You continually prove your lack of credibility to claim you know anything.

What? How have I proved my lack of credibility? By giving you people my opinion? Wrong... you are proving your inability to read! I put it in bold for you but you still missed it.

Not a single link given has refuted my opinion...at best it sites someone else who is also giving their opinion about the same thing and happens to disagree with me.

You continually prove your liberal bias and narrow minded subjective view of the world.

Townsend (can play that accusation game too)

 

[russ_watters]

You imagine yourself to BE a credible source like a lot of ex-military I have seen and think that because you once put on a uniform, you have some superior knowledge of what it is to run a free society.

You forget the words that begin your Constitution ...

I find these words ironic coming from someone who doesn't even live in a democracy, much less the American one...

It really is true that you cannot fully understand what something is like (real freedom, for example) until you experience it. Once you experience it, then maybe you will understand why people would put on that uniform and defend it.

 

[Smurf]

I find these words ironic coming from someone who doesn't even live in a democracy, much less the American one...

It really is true that you cannot fully understand what something is like (real freedom, for example) until you experience it. Once you experience it, then maybe you will understand why people would put on that uniform and defend it.

I live in Canada, I'm allegedly free. Yet I wouldn't lift a finger to defend it. In fact, I'm pretty sure civilians are the majority on this planet... or did I miss something?

 

[Townsend]

I live in Canada, I'm allegedly free. Yet I wouldn't lift a finger to defend it.

I don't know. For some reason I think you would Smurf, I think you would become a war hero of sorts.

 

[Smurf]

I don't know. For some reason I think you would Smurf, I think you would become a war hero of sorts.

Hehe I'm flattered, but I would have to disagree with you. I wouldn't be at all surprised if I ended up as a buddhist monk living in isolation in some southasian monestary in a half a decade.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I find these words ironic coming from someone who doesn't even live in a democracy, much less the American one...

It really is true that you cannot fully understand what something is like (real freedom, for example) until you experience it. Once you experience it, then maybe you will understand why people would put on that uniform and defend it.

Maybe you should understand that I am a westerner who has been visiting China off and on since 1997 and have been living in Suzhou for the last two years.

I have lived and worked in 6 countries over my 25 year career and think I might just be in a position to judge better than most people.

So how long have you spent living in China, Russ, that you think you are in a position to judge what goes on here and then condemn me for 'not knowing what goes on in a democracy'?

 

[Smurf]

Hmmm, I would be quite interested to hear about Russ's background. In fact, I think there should be a thread where everyone can write about their background. That'd be a cool thread to read.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I find these words ironic coming from someone who doesn't even live in a democracy, much less the American one...

PS. When I was living in the USA, I lived in German Village in Columbus, Ohio and worked for Bank One and AEP.

Thanks for playing but it just doesn't wash.

Maybe you should get off the horse now and start discussing issues rather than people as a mentor should? (ie. set an example and don't be part of the ad hominem problem around here.)

 

[stoned]

I find these words ironic coming from someone who doesn't even live in a democracy, much less the American one...

It really is true that you cannot fully understand what something is like (real freedom, for example) until you experience it. Once you experience it, then maybe you will understand why people would put on that uniform and defend it.

you are funny as always.

 

[Townsend]

you are funny as always.

Do you care to offer any real contribution to this thread?

 

[Townsend]

So how long have you spent living in China, Russ, that you think you are in a position to judge what goes on here and then condemn me for 'not knowing what goes on in a democracy'?

I was there in Hong Kong twice for a week at a time, does that count?

Townsend (is not serious...)

 

[The Smoking Man]

Do you care to offer any real contribution to this thread?

Maybe he was offering an opinion.

Maybe he should get his own URL so you can quote him.

 

[Townsend]

Maybe he was offering an opinion.

Maybe he should get his own URL so you can quote him.

Plagiarism...that is MINE...so you had better at least give me the credit...

And his opinion is welcome, however when it is a pointless opinion that's not related to the topic it does not offer anything to this thread.

And one last thing...stop trying so hard to sound slick, it's a farce and is not becoming of your style at all. Not trying to be a prick, just offering up some constructive criticism.

Regards,

 

[The Smoking Man]

And his opinion is welcome, however when it is a pointless opinion that's not related to the topic it does not offer anything to this thread.

And one last thing...stop trying so hard to sound slick, it's a farce and is not becoming of your style at all. Not trying to be a prick, just offering up some constructive criticism.

Good

Remember where you wrote this when I throw this too in your face.

 

[Townsend]

Good

Remember where you wrote this when I throw this too in your face.

Ooh...you're gettin me all excited with anticipation...I can't wait to see what you come up with.

Townsend (gets a shiver up his spine)

p.s. Don't worry, I won't forget it... and where is my credit?

 

[Brady]

Only for a total war scenario, which is unlikely. But if a draft was reinstated, I would gather up all my friends from high school and we'd fight together.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Only for a total war scenario, which is unlikely. But if a draft was reinstated, I would gather up all my friends from high school and we'd fight together.

Yes but would you fight in the war?