# Writing a resume for data science positions

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EngWiPy
Hello all,

I revised a resume for data science positions. I empathized on skills that are needed for the positions like statistics/mathematics and programming. I mention that I am familiar with the theory of many machine learning algorithms and Python libraries used for data analysis. I still don't have personal projects to include in my resume since I don't have practical experience, but I am working on something (I don't mention this in my resume, of course). I have a couple of questions:

1. What else can I include in my resume that is related to data science? Do I need to empathize on more things? How to emphasize on the things I mentioned above in a way that is capturing? I use very plain language, and maybe it is boring.

2. I don't get positive answers for all my applications for interviews. Is this normal? I apply using LinkedIn if the option is Easy Apply, or through the company's website if it is not (but all jobs searches are done on LinkedIn). I feel that startups and small companies use the Easy Apply, so, mostly I apply using it. I am targeting startups and small companies because I am not experienced and professional in the field. The larger companies are more strict, and I have less chance there.

Probably some will say connections is a problem, and I think it is for me. I've reached out to some people on LinkedIn as some suggested, and they replied the first time, but then they stopped replying, which is understandable if you are overwhelmed with messages from many (random) people a day. Some asked me to send them my resume to look at it and see if I need to change something, but never heard from them again! Some suggested meet-up groups is a good place to make connections, which I think is better than messaging people on the Internet, and I will join one or more groups.

3. I am thinking to share something I have been working on so far. It is just exploratory data analysis of a dataset I compiled. Is it a good idea to share (to possibly reference) it? and in any case, shall I use GitHub or Kaggle to share my personal projects and works? I watched some videos on YouTube, and some even mentioned writing blogs where you reference GitHub about your work is a good idea, since people are interested at first on what you have done, and then how you did it, although I am using Jupyter notebooks that include everything: the explanations, codes, and visualizations.

Sorry, it was a bit long.

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Mentor
I revised a resume for data science positions.
Can you post some typical job announcements and requirements from employers that you are looking at? For the company I work for, we put out a request for resumes with a document that lists all of the things we are looking for (requirements and like-to-haves). That would help us to give you better feedback, I think. Thanks.

EngWiPy
Can you post some typical job announcements and requirements from employers that you are looking at? For the company I work for, we put out a request for resumes with a document that lists all of the things we are looking for (requirements and like-to-haves). That would help us to give you better feedback, I think. Thanks.

These are the requirements for one of the positions I applied to:

Requirements

• BS degree or equivalent in Computer Science

• Proficient in Python and Java within a Linux/Unix environment.

• Proficient in SQL

• Ability to organize, interpret, and analyze large amounts of data

• Ability to work effectively as a team, supporting other members of the team in resolving critical service issues

• Ability to clearly communicate your findings to technical and non-technical audiences

• Top notch troubleshooting skills

• Strong attention to detail

• Proactive and motivated, a desire to initiative own work

• Experience with Amazon Web Services or Tableau an asset

This is another one:

SKILLS AND EXPERIENCE:

• Bachelor’s degree or diploma.
• 5+ years’ work experience in a professional setting, performing statistical analysis, data collection, data science, signal processing, machine learning, etc.
• 3+ years’ experience with Statistical & Mathematical programming packages (R, Matlab, etc) and a passion to learn new data analysis methods and tools.
• Knowledge of/or work experience in mineral exploration and/or mining is an asset.
• Experience and passion for solving analytical problems involving big data sets using quantitative approaches to generate insights from data.
• Strong data management skills and with a versioning system. E.g. SQL, Git Proficiency with SQL to support data acquisition functions.
• Ability to understand both functional and end-to-end processes
• Ability to be flexible and adapt to changing circumstances in a dynamic, fast paced environment.
• Critical thinking and problem-solving skills; ability to use logic and reasoning to analyze and identify the strengths and weaknesses of alternative solutions, conclusions or approaches to problems
• Strong written and oral communication skills.
• Previous experience providing mentorship and guidance to other team members.

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Locrian
2. I don't get positive answers for all my applications for interviews. Is this normal?

It's normal to send out many, many resumes.

It's *not* normal to have to do many, many interviews.

If you've sent out less than 50 resumes, you haven't even gotten started.

EngWiPy
Mentor
If you've sent out less than 50 resumes, you haven't even gotten started.
Wow, is that true? I guess I deal mostly with interviewing and hiring experienced R&D engineers, but we do interview new engineering graduates for some entry-level positions. You are saying that they routinely send out 50 resumes in their job hunt? Does that include views on their resume at job hunting websites?

EngWiPy
Mentor
I am targeting startups and small companies because I am not experienced and professional in the field. The larger companies are more strict, and I have less chance there.
I worked at a startup for a number of years before it went public and is now a mature, fairly successful company. Especially as a startup, we were only looking for elite, experienced candidates who could hit the ground running and be extraordinary contributors. A startup is no place for a new graduate (unless they are an amazing superstar).
I empathized on skills that are needed for the positions like statistics/mathematics and programming.
I'm pretty sure that verb is a typo, right?
I am thinking to share something I have been working on so far. It is just exploratory data analysis of a dataset I compiled. Is it a good idea to share (to possibly reference) it?
When I interview candidates, I really like when they bring some of their best previous work (when they can -- sometimes their previous work is proprietary to their previous employers), and we can discuss it at a deep technical level in the interview. When I ask my standard technical interview questions, that helps me to learn some about the candidate's skill and knowledge level, but it is much better when I can ask them technical questions about projects they have worked on. After all, if they worked on it, they definitely should be very familiar and comfortable with it, so I can ask much harder questions and expect them to give good, comfortable, detailed answers.
These are the requirements for one of the positions I applied to:
How well does your resume line up with the requirements of that list?
This is another one:
That one asks for 5+ years of experience, so it's probably not a good match.

EngWiPy
Mentor
If you've sent out less than 50 resumes, you haven't even gotten started.

I think that's very unusual.

Out where I am here is Aus, it's in the IT area, which includes data analysis, we have more jobs than applicants. The thing about such jobs is its a very fast changing area and you have to constantly keep up. Most people want a job where they do their work and that's it - they then can get on with their lives ie work to live not live to work is the very common attitude in Aus. So we have tons of jobs that do not have a lot of takers. Considering our unemployment rate I leave it up to you if its a good or bad attitude.

I was headhunted straight out of university by the Australian Federal Police. I was already in the Public Service and stayed there by going to the AFP. But plenty, especially when times are good, went out to private enterprise - they usually did something like 5 applications - but then again that was when times were good When times were bad they hightailed it back into the public service with their tales between their legs. But even then didn't have to put in 50 applications. When I moved to another government department, because they wanted to put everyone in the AFP on contract, and I wasn't happy with that, I just put in one application and got the job easy. But I had over 10 years experience at that level - most were at the level below looking for a promotion.

Thanks
Bill

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EngWiPy and berkeman
EngWiPy
I understand that it is hard to get a job, but not getting an interview for my qualifications to at least be tested doesn't sound right, and I submitted much more than 50 applications. I send one to four applications a day since July 2016, a couple of months before finishing my postdoc contract. No responses at all. The closest I got was one phone interview, and the person asked me tricky questions like why us and what is one thing you like to change about yourself, and didn't get to the technical interview.

I think the view that startups are looking for professional candidates makes sense, because they are building a company. But if startups are tough, and large companies are tougher and more competitive (most ask for experience, some don't mention it, yet I don't get any positive answers from them), do I even have a chance? Where can I apply?

I think I have the core skills required for data science positions. Most ask for SQL, which I admittedly lack, but I am learning it. I don't have experience and without it my CV looks like a white page, I feel. Yesterday for the first time I shared my ongoing work on something with an application for the hope it gets some attention. Most of the requirements for the first position I mentioned above are soft skills. Without experience I cannot prove I have them. I can say I have problem-solving skills, for example (which I think I have), but how can I prove it? As a PhD and a postdoc, I didn't work in a team, but alone with close contact with my supervisors, so, how can I say I am a team player? (this doesn't mean I am not, but recruiters like to see some projects done in teams and what was your part ... etc, which is understandable).

So, the question is: why are my applications don't get any attention? What is wrong? I genuinely don't know and need to know. As I said, I've sent my CV to some people in the field to see if I can improve on something, but never heard from them back. How can I know what is wrong with my CV if there is any? Do I do things wrongly?

@berkeman Yes that was a typo. Sometimes I use auto-correction, and I choose the wrong word. It is "I emphasized ..."

Thanks all for the replies.

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Mentor
Hi David

You are a postdoc? Whenever I got applications from people with doctorates, providing they had a reasonable programming background, and most did they got an interview 100% for sure, and usually offered a job. In the public service pretty high on the list of job requirements is demonstrated ability to pick up concepts quickly - you have a doctorate - you got that one nailed. The trouble we found with such people is they rarely took up the job offer, obviously getting a better one. The other was when they did take it up it didn't last long - got a better one reasonably quickly. That could be your real issue - they have had bad experiences with keeping staff like you. In the public service you can't reject someone for that reason, it had to be signed off by personnel and if they detect a whiff of that it goes right back to you to please explain. But private companies - well they can do what they like.

I would try applying to public service departments. Also we have a number of university's here in Aus that have short Masters programs of a year or so in data science and are well known for virtually guaranteeing you a job when finished, but they sometimes come under the umbrella of things like Actuarial Science eg (Note this university has 3 semesters a year so 4 semesters is just a bit over a year):

If you get one of those the skys the limit - no unemployment for qualified actuaries with big data specialization - in fact no unemployment for actuaries - period.

Thanks
Bill

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atyy and EngWiPy
When it comes to data science positions, my understanding is that simply applying online for positions is not necessarily the most effective way to break through into the role. Data science positions, perhaps more often than other positions, rely on word-of-mouth and networking.

If I were you, I would suggest you do the following, in addition to applying to companies online through LinkedIn:

1. Try to attend industry workshops related to data science. In Toronto (where I'm located), I had recently attended a Toronto Machine Learning Summit held last November:

https://torontomachinelearning.com/tmls2017

This particular event was attended by students, researchers, and employers, and was a great opportunity for networking and talking with people directly.

Try and search for events like this in your particular area (Google is your friend). Or try signing up to Meetup (http://www.meetup.com) and search for anything related to Machine Learning or Data Science in your area -- I'm sure there is something that will turn up. Once you attend these events, and people can see you face-to-face, it's much easier for potential employers to remember you.

2. Try talking to recruiters who specialize in placing data science positions, and ask for their advice in both determining what positions are available and to critique your resume.

https://www.cio.com/article/3051124...s-to-kick-start-your-data-science-career.html

I hope the above advice will be of some benefit to you.

atyy and EngWiPy
EngWiPy
@bhobba That's interesting. You are not the first one to say this to me that people with doctorates are liable to jump/leave, though. But isn't it the case for anyone who gets a better opportunity? I guess people move from small companies to larger ones as they progress and become more professional. They move forward. But is this enough reason not to consider my applications? I see many PhDs in the field of data science from different academic backgrounds. So, there must be something else beside/other than this reason. I don't have experience, but again is this enough reason not to consider my applications, even if I have some mathematical/statistical and programming backgrounds from my academic path? I understand if I am rejected after being interviewed because there must be someone else who is more experienced than me, but why aren't my applications considered at all and I am not being called for interviews in the first place?

A data scientist with a PhD in an engineering field told me that he took a similar program (in Canada) to the one you mentioned before switching from academia to the industry. The one you referenced is very expensive though ($75000). I wouldn't be able to afford enrolling in such a program. @StatGuy2000 Thanks for the suggestions. I will join some meetup groups about data science and machine learning as soon as I can. Most machine-learning events happen in Toronto (I see many posts about these meetings on LinkedIn from people who work in Toronto), but I believe meetup groups are available where I live. I think this is the best option for me to connect and do projects with others. I've done online courses in data science. Personal bootcamps maybe better if they are reachable and/or affordable. Mentor @bhobbaBut isn't it the case for anyone who gets a better opportunity? Of course - but with a doctorate you can find jobs pretty high up the ladder usually in a lot shorter time than others. My old senior executive service head (equivalent in civilian land to a Corporate Information Officer - CIO) was a particle physicist. He got that job on the strength that he was in charge of the computational division or something like that where he worked at some top secret part of defence. In senior positions, and I mean really senior ones like that, its not this stuff like you work in teams etc etc you find in selection requirements at lower levels - it much more high level than that - it's - more along the lines of - how 'on the ball' are you. Here is an example of a specialist SES Officers selection criteria: Professional / Specialist: The most significant contribution of roles is the provision of technical, professional, specialist, or strategic advice. This advice has a primary influence on adopted strategies, plans and targets and outcomes in terms of effectiveness or efficiency. A doctorate shows you can handle researching issues to give such advice - the rest of us can't point to that Dr in front of your name that proves it - you are ahead of the pack to begin with. Sure the CIO needed to have had some experience in computing - but at a high enough level you have underlings that actually work with the computers - you just have to know enough to research the issues and give advice. It's much harder for someone to spin you BS, which happens a lot in the senior ranks. I remember my director coming to me and asked - Bill- The Cool Gen (Cool Gen is a development environment for writing IT systems and such) guys are telling the upper level people their product is a code generator so your staff will be a lot more productive. I nearly broke out laughing - and said - yes that's correct. But it must generate code from something - that something is a high level computer language. Sure it's easier than say COBOL or whatever - but it's no better than the language we were using at the time called Natural. You need to be awake enough to see through that sort of thing - at least enough to check with those lower down - having a doctorate means you have done some significant research work by yourself and know things are not always what they look on the surface. Yes that link I gave was to a VERY expensive program - its just an example of what's about - you can likely find one much cheaper where you are with a bit of research. Of course it's wrong to reject on those grounds and in the Public Service its strictly forbidden - you get caught doing it and you are in deep do do - like I said you will get a please explain from personal. You would have to specifically address in your write up why you did not choose the person with the Phd - that Phd means you automatically have demonstrated many of the selection criteria - not working in teams etc - but many others such as the ability to think independently. Private enterprise however, as I said before, can do as they please. Thanks Bill Last edited: atyy and EngWiPy EngWiPy @bhobba Thank you. What do you mean by public service? Like governmental entities? If so, I haven't seen many positions from them. Your post (or the way employers/recruiters think) seems to give doctorate people credit for their potentials, but if junior positions are no good for decorate people, what about senior positions then? I am not getting responses for either. Honestly, senior positions intimidate me because I don't have experience, so mostly I avoid them, but have applied for some of them, also with no positive responses. Some people say that academic people sell themselves short. Maybe this is true, but how to present yourself for the positions you are interested in in a way that looks good, without you having much experience in the field? Education Advisor Of course - but with a doctorate you can find jobs pretty high up the ladder usually in a lot shorter time than others. Perhaps what you say may be true for those in the US or in Australia (I know that is where you live), but this isn't necessarily true in Canada. The work culture in Canada tends to be conservative and risk averse, and more often than not, those with doctorates may experience a more difficult time in getting the notice of employers and making that transition into non-academic work. Take a look at the following article from the Conference Board of Canada (specifically look at the section "Preparation for Diverse Careers"). http://www.conferenceboard.ca/topic...5/01/06/Where_Are_Canada_s_PhDs_Employed.aspx atyy and EngWiPy Mentor Interesting article. But I don't think its that different from here in Aus - a bit different - but not a lot. Notice the unemployment rate is lower for those with doctorates. This is as it should be - that doctorate in front of you name automatically guarantees you have many (not all) the skills required for a job. But neither do recent graduates in any area and you will often find the selection criteria for those jobs contain nothing a Phd would not have and in fact would get much higher scores from the interview panel in areas such as ability to work unsupervised and think independently, What they would often find difficult is in jobs that require experience - but base level jobs - usually no issue. So it simply is getting qualified in that area to the base level. We have, as I mentioned here in Aus we have a number of Masters designed for career changes (forget the example I gave - its way too expensive - it was just an example). I will attach more info on another one in my next post. Of course you may be lucky and your PhD could be in the area you are trying to get a job in. Here is the issue from a potential employers viewpoint - you get a bit of experience and because of that doctorate you become very appealing for higher level positions - you can demonstrate the requirements better than those that don't have a doctorate. So you shoot up the ladder quickly. They invest in training you and you go. It's wrong and Government Organisations (what I call the Public Service) will not allow it - but private enterprise - well there are no laws against it, and even if there was it would be very hard to prove. Thanks Bill Last edited: EngWiPy EngWiPy Perhaps what you say may be true for those in the US or in Australia (I know that is where you live), but this isn't necessarily true in Canada. The work culture in Canada tends to be conservative and risk averse, and more often than not, those with doctorates may experience a more difficult time in getting the notice of employers and making that transition into non-academic work. Take a look at the following article from the Conference Board of Canada (specifically look at the section "Preparation for Diverse Careers"). http://www.conferenceboard.ca/topic...5/01/06/Where_Are_Canada_s_PhDs_Employed.aspx It is interesting to know that Canada is more conservative and risk averse than the US and Australia. I found the following paragraph in the article particularly interesting, and, in my experience, true: Highly educated researchers, with advanced knowledge and a range of technical, critical, creative, and other skills, play vital roles in Canada’s economy and society. But there are concerns that Canadian PhD programs are not doing enough to prepare graduates for the non-academic careers that most of them will have. Many students and employers hold that graduates have inadequate professional skills—including skills to identify and land jobs, and to perform effectively in diverse careers. At the same time, many employers underestimate the skills that PhDs already have and the contributions they can make. Together, these perceptions limit employer demand for doctorates and contribute to the difficult transitions PhDs experience as they pursue diverse careers beyond the academy. EngWiPy Interesting article. But I don't think its that different from here in Aus - a bit different - but not a lot. Notice the unemployment rate is lower for those with doctorates. This is as it should be - that doctorate in front of you name automatically guarantees you have many (not all) the skills required for a job. But neither do recent graduates in any area and you will often find the selection criteria for those jobs contain nothing a Phd would not have and in fact would get much higher scores from the interview panel in areas such as ability to work unsupervised and think independently, What they would often find difficult is in jobs that require experience - but base level jobs - usually no issue. So it simply is getting qualified in that area to the base level. We have, as I mentioned here in Aus we have a number of Masters designed for career changes (forget the example I gave - its way too expensive - it was just an example). I will attach more info on another one in my next post. Of course you may be lucky and your PhD could be in the area you are trying to get a job in. Here is the issue from a potential employers viewpoint - you get a bit of experience and because of that doctorate you become very appealing for higher level positions - you can demonstrate the requirements better than those that don't have a doctorate. So you shoot up the ladder quickly. They invest in training you and you go. It's wrong and Government Organisations (what I call the Public Service) will not allow it - but private enterprise - well there are no laws against it, and even if there was it would be very hard to prove. Thanks Bill I see what you are saying, but in this case, what should PhDs who are trying to make the transition do? For senior positions they lack the necessary experience, and for junior positions they are liable to leave very quickly after acquiring some skills. They don't fit in both cases. Mentor @bhobba Thank you. What do you mean by public service? Like governmental entities? If so, I haven't seen many positions from them. Your post (or the way employers/recruiters think) seems to give doctorate people credit for their potentials, but if junior positions are no good for decorate people, what about senior positions then? I am not getting responses for either. Honestly, senior positions intimidate me because I don't have experience, so mostly I avoid them, but have applied for some of them, also with no positive responses. Some people say that academic people sell themselves short. Maybe this is true, but how to present yourself for the positions you are interested in in a way that looks good, without you having much experience in the field? Yes - by public service I mean the government. I worked for them all my life. I have sat on many interview/selection panels and know exactly how they work. Private enterprise - not so much - just what friends have told me. Ring them up and ask to speak to their personnel section and see what happens. They often have things like the Government Gazette that has the jobs. Sometimes only those working in the PS can apply - with one exception - base level positions - anyone can apply for those. Also universities often have days where PS staff interview potential new graduates - I did a few of those. Personally just before I graduated I attended an interview and was within a few days offered a job at the Australian Federal Police. Another example was when I worked at the Child Support Agency. They really needed Lawyers to answer thorny legal issues - but law graduates generally aren't interested in that so they don't advertise. I spoke to one lawyer there - how did she get the job. Well she ran a failing suburban law business and didn't know what to do. In speaking to CSA staff on behalf of a client she mentioned she was thinking of getting out of her business. They told her we desperately need lawyers but nobody wants to work here. You will have to start at base level but will rise quickly. She was only one level below me when I saw her - but I have spoken to other lawyers there and they were at the next level above me - salary - about$130k - I was on about $100k - but they were in it to rise even higher. It took them 5 years or something like that to reach where they were - but its a very good base to build from. Going straight for senior positions - sounds appealing doesn't it. Trouble is you still need a basic knowledge of lower down. The PhD that was the CIO where I worked did that by working in computational physics at a government department - that's how he did it. You will really need something similar - but once that is done your potential for rising fast is very good. I mentioned a one year Masters, but there are a few ways do do it - I have attached one that does it in stages - Graduate Certificate, Graduate Diploma, then the Masters. Now for base level jobs the criteria was a degree on Computer Science (or similar eg IT, Data Science etc). A graduate diploma was considered for this purpose the equivalent of a Bachelors - of course the full Masters is given greater credit for academic preparation and more credit for subject area knowledge in the interview. But the actual requirement was substantial progress to a qualification - which usually meant at least half your degree or for post grad a graduate certificate. Even though the document I will attach says 8 months for a graduate certificate they say each subject takes 7 weeks - and that would be 1 subject per 7 weeks. A guy with a doctorate I am sure could do two and they sound like a pretty flexible lot. Its$3100 per subject - less to US students with our exchange rate - I think 14 weeks would be reasonable to get a graduate certificate. You didn't say what your actual academic background was - but I feel confident you could get some subject exemptions. For example the math requirement is just Australian HS math - you sound you have a LOT more than that - which could get you exemptions.

So here is my advice - start some formal study and apply for base level positions in government departments. Your starting salary won't be great - but is a platform to build on and with your Doctorate you will quickly shoot - I have seen it - its true - and when you think about it with how the world is changing we are all expected to have a number of careers and you can't expect to start at the top.

Thanks
Bill

#### Attachments

• Brochure-Data-Science.pdf
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EngWiPy
Mentor
I see what you are saying, but in this case, what should PhDs who are trying to make the transition do? For senior positions they lack the necessary experience, and for junior positions they are liable to leave very quickly after acquiring some skills. They don't fit in both cases.

1. Start becoming formally qualified in the area you want.

2. Try to get a government job - they will not be concerned with you leaving - it's wrong and the PS tries to be fair - they will not do that. Besides the PS is a BIG place - you are likely to leave to go elsewhere in the government so really its not much of an issue to them overall.

3. Start at the base level and work your way up - it won't take long with your qualifications.

4. The pamphlet I attached points out they offer students success advisers that hopefully will help you land that crucial first job. That's all you need.

Thanks
Bill

EngWiPy
EngWiPy
I am not after senior positions and sure I don't expect to start at the top. As I mentioned, I apply mostly to junior positions. I just want to put my feet in the industry. I will check the brochure you attached., but in Canada, there is a similar program, and it is a better option for me (online degrees may not be as rigorous as in-person programs). My academic background (PhD) is Electrical Engineering with specialization in Wireless Communication. Thanks again.

EngWiPy
I am also considering internships as another option, but how easy is it to get one in my case, and would it help me in landing a job by itself?

Mentor
I am not after senior positions and sure I don't expect to start at the top. As I mentioned, I apply mostly to junior positions. I just want to put my feet in the industry. I will check the brochure you attached. In Canada, there is a similar program, and I am considering it. My academic background (PhD) is Electrical Engineering with specialization in Wireless Communication. Thanks again.

Then you would get some exemptions for sure.

I had a look at some of those selection requirements you posted. That one with 5+ years experience is obviously meant for what we called senior programmers - people who would have been junior/base level programmers for some time. I have written the selection criteria for such jobs - saying 5+ years is silly - you say - substantial experience or something like that. I have had guys in interviews being a base level programmer for only a year that nailed it - they easily demonstrated greater programming knowledge than some with 10 years experience. In fact I was one of those - I got a Senior Programmer after one year - and became a Team Leader - the next level up again after another year. But stopped there - for over 20 years until I retired - never went any further. Why? My management ability wasn't great - it wasn't bad - but others were better and there were always those better around. Interestingly they often took a lot longer than me to be a senior programmer then team leader because their technical ability was not as good as mine - but had better management skills. I had to wait until higher level more technically oriented jobs came along - and they are rarer than management oriented ones - also often in areas that didn't interest me like DBA work.

The other one was for a base level job - but this working in teams thing has me beat - how do you meet that one straight out of university. I again have written those and would never put that in - it would be something like knowledge of working in a team etc - that you do learn in your degree.

In your area - data science - you can get more money without going into management - its more like DBA work I mentioned but likely better. Still getting something like $100-$150k plus good government employee benefits isn't exactly doing it tough.

Thanks
Bill

EngWiPy
Mentor
I am also considering internships as another option, but how easy is it to get one in my case, and would it help me in landing a job by itself?

It wouldn't hurt - but I have to say I never came across any in the interview work I did.

Thanks
Bill

EngWiPy
Interesting article. But I don't think its that different from here in Aus - a bit different - but not a lot.

Notice the unemployment rate is lower for those with doctorates. This is as it should be - that doctorate in front of you name automatically guarantees you have many (not all) the skills required for a job. But neither do recent graduates in any area and you will often find the selection criteria for those jobs contain nothing a Phd would not have and in fact would get much higher scores from the interview panel in areas such as ability to work unsupervised and think independently, What they would often find difficult is in jobs that require experience - but base level jobs - usually no issue. So it simply is getting qualified in that area to the base level. We have, as I mentioned here in Aus we have a number of Masters designed for career changes (forget the example I gave - its way too expensive - it was just an example). I will attach more info on another one in my next post.

Of course you may be lucky and your PhD could be in the area you are trying to get a job in.

Here is the issue from a potential employers viewpoint - you get a bit of experience and because of that doctorate you become very appealing for higher level positions - you can demonstrate the requirements better than those that don't have a doctorate. So you shoot up the ladder quickly. They invest in training you and you go. It's wrong and Government Organisations (what I call the Public Service) will not allow it - but private enterprise - well there are no laws against it, and even if there was it would be very hard to prove.

Thanks
Bill

See the following op-ed piece:

Also see the following newspaper link:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...orth-the-time-or-money-study/article27445026/

EngWiPy
Mentor
I hope you don't mind but this piqued my interest enough to look into entry level data analyst government jobs in the US.

The big issue seems to be many require you to already have a security clearance - they are non-trivial to get in the US. I had a Top Secret one here in Aus for my job in the AFP but getting that beforehand was not part of the job - the AFP did the process after I got the job.

Anyway you can still find entry level government jobs without that eg - one I found after a couple of minutes work:

Job Description
Metron’s ORCA Group is seeking an entry level operations and systems analysts (data science). Metron employs its simulation system products in support of real-time operations, experimentation, distributed simulation and war gaming, and the acquisition analysis process. The successful candidate will participate in the test & evaluation and employment of analytic and simulation tools. Candidates must be able to work independently and as part of a team.

Desired Qualifications
BS or MS in Math, Engineering, Data Science, Computer Science, Operations Research, or a related field
0-2 yrs. experience in analysis using modeling and simulation tools – preferably of defense programs - via academia, industry, government, or military service
US CITIZENSHIP REQUIRED
Position Location: Rosslyn, VA

Good luck - but the jobs seem to be there.

Thanks
Bill

EngWiPy
Mentor
See the following op-ed piece:

That's bad. Definitely not like that in Aus.

But still all is not lost - even though a Masters is better - it still seems to be better than just a Bachelors.

And the other thing of course is after a lot of experience education level becomes less and less important - its getting your foot in the door that's important.

I do remember some reporter here in Aus who really gave it to some politician for making a PhD in Economics head of the town planning authority. When interviewed he said, sorry, the press release forgot to explain he also had a Masters in Town Planning. But you think the silly interviewer would let it go - no - he just kept on harping what use is a PhD in economics to Town Planning - what an idiot.

Thanks
Bill

EngWiPy
That's bad. Definitely not like that in Aus.

But still all is not lost - even though a Masters is better - it still seems to be better than just a Bachelors.

And the other thing of course is after a lot of experience education level becomes less and less important - its getting your foot in the door that's important.

I do remember some reporter here in Aus who really gave it to some politician for making a PhD in Economics head of the town planning authority. When interviewed he said, sorry, the press release forgot to explain he also had a Masters in Town Planning. But you think the silly interviewer would let it go - no - he just kept on harping what use is a PhD in economics to Town Planning - what an idiot.

Thanks
Bill

I should note that the op-ed piece (which was written in 2012, so may be out of date for 2018) exaggerates the extent to which the Canadian economy is reliant on natural resources, or whether PhDs are required or not in companies that specialize in natural resource-related industries -- for example, there are opportunities available for PhD-trained geophysicists in the mining sector, and there is a growing, lucrative field in the area of machine learning within Toronto (not to mention that many PhD-trained physicists and mathematicians work in the financial sector in cities like Toronto, Vancouver, or Montreal). But I thought it was worth addressing in this thread.

EngWiPy
Locrian
Wow, is that true?

It is for many entry level folks I've talked to. (Edit: I should note I assist on the hiring end, and we never lack a large number of entry level resumes) But we can see right in this thread there are people with different experiences.

I feel pretty strongly that in the US entry level work in any kind of advanced analytics is hard to get into right now, while skilled workers with experience have a very easy time of it. Sounds like life is different in Australia.

atyy and berkeman
Locrian
50 resumes shouldn't be shocking though. That's one to three months of sending out resumes, if you're aggressive. That's not a super long job search.

Mentor
there are opportunities available for PhD-trained geophysicists in the mining sector,

My niece studied geophysics not because I think she wanted a job in the mining sector - it sort of appealed to her - she liked geology, math and physics.

Anyway when she was finished she asked me should she do an honors year - they offered her one if she wanted it. I said - do the extra semester and get a Masters - that always looks better than even a honors year. But my advice was made moot - a mining company approached her and said we will pay for your honors year and a PhD if you come to work for us after. That's what she did. I have lost track of her but last I heard she was a real high flyer in some mining company.

His brother, my nephew, started doing the same degree I did - combined math/computing - even at the same university - but the math, and I don't know why - he was always pretty good at it - got the better of him and switched to plain computer science. My sister said it was because they didn't really prepare him well enough at HS - I am doubtful of that - but who says math and computing always go together- not in my nephews case. Got a good job when finished, but his father got an eventually fatal brain tumor. He unselfishly through his job into look after him, but when he returned to work had to start at the bottom again. He is doing OK, but taking time off like that really hurt his career.

Thanks
Bill

Last edited:
atyy