Yet another question that is supposed to turn SR on its head

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of special relativity (SR) as presented in Richard Mould's "Basic Relativity," specifically focusing on the gedanken experiments related to time dilation, length contraction, and simultaneity. Participants explore the effects of replacing a rod with two asteroids in a thought experiment and the resulting implications for observers in different frames of reference.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how both observers can agree on the time reading of the second observer's clock when passing the second asteroid, given that there is no length contraction involved with the asteroids.
  • Another participant suggests that it may not matter whether the length is a material object or just the space between two points, indicating a need for deeper understanding of SR.
  • Some participants argue that space contracts similarly to material objects, citing examples such as the contraction of distances at relativistic speeds.
  • A later reply emphasizes the importance of the relativity of simultaneity and points out that the first observer has two synchronized clocks, raising questions about how synchronization is perceived in different frames.
  • One participant reflects on their understanding of the materiality of objects versus the concept of distance in the context of SR, suggesting that the absence of a material object does not negate the effects of length contraction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relevance of material objects versus empty space in the context of length contraction and simultaneity. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives on how these concepts interact in special relativity.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion hinges on the principles of relativity and the definitions of simultaneity and length contraction, which may not be fully addressed in the section of the book being discussed.

neutrino
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This is something that arose out of a section in Richard Mould's Basic Relativity.

He begins SR with his so-called "Physical Threorms (PT)," which are gedanken experiments used to show the effects time-dilation, length-contraction, and the concept of simultaneity in relativity, in that order.

I'll give a gist of his second PT: An observer, in whose frame a rod of length L is at rest, obserevs a clock that reads 5:00 as it passes the left end of the rod (event A) with velocity v to the right. By the time (say, an hour) it reaches the other end, the moving clock reads 5:\frac{L}{\gamma v} due to time dilation(event B). Both observers must agree on the "facts" (events A and B).

Now, the second observer agrees that his clock does read 5:\frac{L}{\gamma v} when the moving rod's end B passes him. But according to him, it is because a rod of length \frac{L}{\gamma } is moving with a velocity v to his right.


Mould does not talk about how the first observer's clock appears to the second.

Now here's my question: If I were to replace the rod with two asteroids (assumed to be moving at the same uniform velocity) separated by a distance L, with event A and B corresponding to passing asteroid 1 and 2, respectively. How would I explain the fact that both observers agree that the second observer's clock reads 5:\frac{L}{\gamma v} when passing asteroid two, since there is no contraction of length involved.

I hope my question is clear.
 
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neutrino said:
...since there is no contraction of length involved.
Look at the thought experiment more closely. Follow through what the book describes. Does it really matter if the length is a material object or just empty space between two objects/points?

Thinking this out yourself will help you learn SR better, but if you'd prefer, one of us can just tell you the answer (although ultimately the answer probably won't settle well unless you think it through yourself anyway).
 
Last edited:
JustinLevy said:
Does it really matter if the length is a material object or just empty space between two objects/points?
That's the question which has been nagging me. If I had known the answer, this thread probably won't exist. ;) Moreover, I'm trying to answer this with what is already known (in the book), viz. the principles of relativity and the 1st PT (time-dilation).
 
neutrino said:
That's the question which has been nagging me. If I had known the answer, this thread probably won't exist. ;) Moreover, I'm trying to answer this with what is already known (in the book), viz. the principles of relativity and the 1st PT (time-dilation).
Why would replacing the rod with two asteroids change anything? Space contracts as much as materials do.

eg. At near the speed of light, the distance to Alpha Centauri is greatly contracted.


(In fact, if you extrapolate 'near c' to 'at c', you can see what a photon "sees". Which is that every point in the universe has contracted to be zero distance from every other point, which is why it takes "no time" from a photon's perspective to get from A to B - i.e. a photon doesn't experience time.
 
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DaveC426913 said:
Why would replacing the rod with two asteroids change anything? Space contracts as much as materials do.

eg. At near the speed of light, the distance to Alpha Centauri is greatly contracted.


(In fact, if you extrapolate 'near c' to 'at c', you can see what a photon "sees". Which is that every point in the universe has contracted to be zero distance from every other point, which is why it takes "no time" from a photon's perspective to get from A to B - i.e. a photon doesn't experience time.
The photon's perspective is something I thought about earlier which shows that a material is not needed for the lenth between two points to contract.

Now that my doubt is more or less cleared (it will never be completely clear), I can continue reading the book with a lot less clutter in my mind. Thanks.
 
It seems to me that neutrino may have missed the key element of the relativity of simultaneity.

Mould does not talk about how the first observer's clock appears to the second.

The first observer has not just one clock, but two clocks. He has a clock on the left end of the rod, which was used to measure event A, and a clock on the right end of the rod, which was used to measure event B.

The first observer has synchronized his clocks, of course. But, what do we know about clock synchronization in relativity?

...

...

...

It's frame dependent. Clocks that are synchronized in one frame are not necessarily synchronized in another frame.

So take a closer look at the problem with the "relativity of simultaneity" in mind. I'd be rather surprised if the author doesn't discuss this, but I don't have the book in question.
 
As I said in the first post, simultaneity is dealt with after length contraction. Infact, the author never talks about the first observer's clock in this part.
 

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