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A Theory of The Brain |
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| Oct17-09, 12:56 AM | #18 |
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A Theory of The Brain(I have no idea where conservation comes from historically... it kind of sneaked in to the classroom.) And the quantum mechanics came along and described, more fundamentally, the classical observations with crazy unintuitive ideas. But "top-down" and "bottom-up" describe linear models of discovery. It may be that this is how the community of scientists develop science as a whole, but it doesn't mean that particular scientists are restricted to viewing things that way. Now that I think of it, we almost nearly always have to test thing from the bottom-up, because once we learned quantum mechanics, for instance, there were theories in classical physics that became invalid as they had made fundamental assumptions that were not true in general. But as far as I know, you can recover nearly all of classical with quantum when you make those same assumptions with QM and take the limit. So we see a sort of way we can quantify reductionism. I've gone off on a tangent, but what I'm trying to say is that we should generally always be able to recover the top from the bottom if we make the right assumptions at the bottom. And the top will always make sufficient predictions in the limit that we're generally comfortable with because it generalizes the intricate parts of the bottom, so both schools of thought "bottom-up" and "top-down" are valid in a sound scientific theory. Anyway, in some sense, I predict that neurology will be the QM of psychology (which will play the part of classical physics). |
| Oct17-09, 03:25 AM | #19 |
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My knee-jerk response was "oh god, language is so hard to code", but I'm definitely interested in the idea. That's more of a postdoc project than even a PhD project, and I'm only just thinking of Master's project for now. From what I've read so far, it's likely to draw on the firing-rate model. However, I think these things emerge in the strangest ways if we don't pay attention to them. I especially like Vilayanur Ramachandran's tangent on synethsesia and its connection to creativity... this would be worth investigating to me. If you haven't watched his video, I referenced it earlier in this thread and will do so for you again as I'm desperate to share discussion on it and want to make it as easy as I can for you to watch it in the hopes that you will: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl2LwnaUA-k |
| Oct17-09, 05:30 AM | #20 |
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Under-pruning of synapses would be the standard speculative story on synesthesia. Stuff spills over. And conversely, a well-organised left fusiform gyrus would act as a "module" for orderly cross-modal tieing together (though perhaps more an evolutionary emphasis on language processing that any kind of human creativity module). But anyway, you have two kinds of neural story here - one of overly diffuse connection, the other of focused connectedness. If anything, this would lead into a discussion of brain organisation as a set of dichotomies. So diffused~focused. Or plasticity~stability to pick a more telling dimension for neural net design. Actual creative leaps are probably best modelled in threshold terms - competitive neural nets. When the mind is fixed on one idea, it cannot see other possibilities. It is in a state of high neural contrast where something is very conscious - high firing rates, high synchrony - and all other memory traces literally suppressed. Low reactivity. low synchrony. So to jump to some other version of events, some other arrangement of stored knowledge, the mind has to relax. Go flat. Then competition can bring another pattern of connections to the fore. Forge a new link - this could be flipped round to now fit that. This is why solutions often pop into mind when we are "looking the other way" - relaxed theta rhythm story, or check the priming literature. |
| Oct17-09, 05:42 AM | #21 |
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Anyhow, the question is not the thing here. The question is the thing for technical works to be produced. The thing here is the ambition, the curiosity. Questions poor out my ears. Eventually, I'll find one that both hasn't been answered yet and is within my reach to verify. |
| Oct17-09, 08:18 AM | #22 |
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regarding synethsesia:
blue=colorized black red=colorized grey yellow=colorized white green=blue+yellow purple=blue+red orange=red+yellow are these examples of synethsesia? how about these? sour=sweet+bitter salty=hot+cold or these? sweet=pleasure+taste |
| Oct17-09, 04:07 PM | #23 |
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This does not seem an accurate way to introspect about colour experience. Green does not appear like a blue-yellow mixture but instead seems a pure colour experience. On the other hand, you can have blackish blue, red and green (navy blue, crimson, forest green) yet not a blackish yellow. Instead you get brown from a low reflectance yellow. Student demonstrated this with a chocolate bar viewed against a bright light backdrop. The brown turns yellow. This is explained neurally by the fact we have three colour pigments but four colour opponent channels - so yellow is interpolated at a higher level of processing as a "primary" to counter blue. And the effect of relative brightness on colour experience. |
| Oct17-09, 04:51 PM | #24 |
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My older daughter is a synesthete and see numbers as colors. A synesthete might "hear" colors. They might "taste" numbers. A flavor might feel "pointed or sharp" |
| Oct17-09, 05:34 PM | #25 |
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| Oct17-09, 05:52 PM | #26 |
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Moreover, my point (yes there was a point) was that maybe these things evolved by first passing through a stage a synethsesia. today we would say that purple is not red or blue but a separate color. yet even now I can kinda see purple as being sorta bluish in a way and at the same time sorta redish in a way.
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| Oct17-09, 06:14 PM | #27 |
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| Oct17-09, 06:23 PM | #28 |
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So a retinal ganglion cell is wired to have an “on/off” receptive field. It compares excitatory input from one type of cone cell, say red, with the inhibitory input from a surround of opponent cells, which would be green. It would then fire strongly when it "saw" red surrounded by not-green. And alternatively, would have its baseline firing rate suppressed, desynchronised, when it saw not-red and surrounding green. Red and green are of course misleading terms at this level of description as the red cone is broadly tuned - it shows a bell curve response to wavelength that simply peaks at a particular frequency. So will show some response to bright enough "green". Anyway, a general principle of neural circuitry is that local responses are shaped by global contextual effects. It is all about the cross-wiring. And synthesia is just the cross-wiring being extended too promiscuously across cortical areas. Seeing yellow ought to trigger experiences of not-number and not-shape. Because the yellow object might be actually just a banana or a coloured test card, And so the cross-wiring should be binding cross-modally to these actual memories - our banana recognition circuitry should be going yes-banana-like and yes-yellow. And so not-cat and not-apple (other objects), and not-blue, not-black (other colours, unless it is a very old banana). Synthesia is a failure to suppress contextual associations. Note that the reaction is to fairly specific and high-level stimuli - number names and words and musical notes. Quite sharply localised. And from that would seem to be part of the human brain's tinkering to handle language. Evolution had to jiggle with cross-modal connectedness so that words triggered the right learnt penumbra of associative response - hearing banana did result in not-black, yes-yellow, etc. |
| Oct17-09, 06:32 PM | #29 |
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Likewise red and green are opponent so resist being seen as mixed, but you can have greeny blue or greeny yellow. Look at the wiring of the visual pathway and these qualitative aspects of experience make quantitative sense (though there is still admittedly the qualitative "hard problem" of why green is "greenish", even if we know it is the brain saying we are seeing not-red). |
| Oct17-09, 06:55 PM | #30 |
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This is a very good basic explanation of synesthesia.
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| Oct17-09, 08:57 PM | #31 |
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So I think the binding problem goes beyond just the binding of senses, but also the binding of some kind of symbolic memory. For instance, you're in a room with a metal worker and a bunch of junk all over, but you're not really paying attention to the junk because you're talking to the metal-worker. It's all formless, even as it's in your field of vision. But as you begin to look at things, you identify the individual pieces of the junk, you know what they are from experience, and as you analyze each piece and identify it, your also relying on your memory to construct the details you can't directly sense. You can imagine how it would smell or feel or taste or sound based on experience. Language itself seems to be a kind of way to reinforce symbolic memory, if it's not in some way directly responsible for it. |
| Oct18-09, 02:04 AM | #32 |
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It is curious that schizophrenia, which seems to result from a lack of basic sensory filtering, produces a syndrome that makes higher level associations more difficult. I suppose one is just context suppression failure whereas the other is a more basic suppression failure. |
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