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SW VandeCarr
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I just read that Scotland is to vote on independence in 2014. If Scotland leaves the UK, will it still be the UK? Can there be a United Kingdom with just England and Wales?
SW VandeCarr said:I just read that Scotland is to vote on independence in 2014. If Scotland leaves the UK will it still be the UK? Can there be a United Kingdom with just England and Wales?
Greg Bernhardt said:What about Northern Ireland?
AlephZero said:Being pedantic, the question should be about Great Britain, since the UK is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
Nothing is likely to happen very fast, but part of the issue in England is that the English had quite enough of the 10 years of a Labour government which seemed to be run entirely by ministers who were Scots. (Even Tony Blair was educated in Scotland, though he never learned the accent).
There is also the "West Lothian Question:"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question
- which became more of an issue now that Wales and Scotland both have their own elected parliaments.
Ken Natton said:Never has it been seriously suggested that the Westminster Parliament would cease to exist. The only thing at question is what its jurisdiction will be. And 2014 has not been set, the date of the referendum along with the precise wording of the question that will be posed is exactly where the active argument is at.
Ken Natton said:I don’t know why you think that the Welsh are less nationalistic than the Scottish, the Welsh Nationalist Party (Plaid Cymru) has as long a history and is no less vocal. They have not yet gained a majority in the Welsh parliament equivalent to that currently enjoyed by the Scottish Nationalist Party is the Scottish Parliament, but it is hopelessly simplistic to suppose that to be an indication of less nationalist fervour in Wales than in Scotland. Some level of pragmatism does come into play at the ballot box which does not necessarily reflect what people are really feeling about their national identities. In any case, the very fact that the SNP gained the majority that it did absolutely does indicate that a referendum result in line with their vision is a real possibility, and thus so is the break-up of the United Kingdom. The possibility that such an event would lead to a similar result in Wales in very real.
Wales has a a population of 3m. That's bigger than Latvia, Estonia, Macedonia, etc in the EU and nearly 10 times as big as Iceland. What's the size problem?SW VandeCarr said:To think that Wales could be a viable prosperous independent state seems rather strange. A Welsh seat in the UN, a Welsh Army, Navy, Airforce, foreign embassies, etc??
EDIT: Another thing: What will these would be nation states do for a currency? They could issue their own or join the euro zone. Hmmm.
AlephZero said:Wales has a a population of 3m. That's bigger than Latvia, Estonia, Macedonia, etc in the EU and nearly 10 times as big as Iceland. What's the size problem?
SW VandeCarr said:... as far as I know, Wales has never been an independent state. I believe the Welch tribes came under English rule in the 1300s.
What a bizarre opinion.cristo said:There should be two options: full independence, or to be united back into the UK and powers sent back to Westminster.
Ken Natton said:Before the Romans, Britain was populated by the peoples we now refer to as the ancient Britons, the dominant ethnic group of which were the Celtic. But it was really after the Romans left to be replaced by the northern Germanic Angles and Saxons that the Celtic tended to get pushed to the extremities of Britain. And it was these Anglo Saxons that applied to them the term Welsh, meaning in old German ‘alien people’, the irony being that they were actually the indigenous people and it was the Anglo Saxons who were the invaders. The Welsh people’s name for themselves ‘Cymru’ means, in Gaelic, something like ‘the fellowship’. And the ancient county of England called Cumbria has a common etymology with Cymru, it is essentially the same term with the same meaning. Because you see, at that time, the Welsh people were not confined to that area of land which, today, we know as Wales. In fact, their largest and longest surviving kingdom was in the southern part of modern Scotland, centred on the city that today, we know as Dumbarton. As you said, it was not until something like 1300 that the area of land that we call Wales gained that particular label.
MarcoD said:The odd thing of Europe: People still relate to events which happened several millennia ago.
Because we do not live on land expropriated only a couple of hundred years ago...MarcoD said:The odd thing of Europe: People still relate to events which happened several millennia ago. :uhh:
ferrelhadley said:Because we do not live on land expropriated only a couple of hundred years ago...
Ken Natton said:...distortion and manipulation of accounts of past events occur where there is no serious history.
Ken Natton said:Huh. So let me understand MarcoD, history is not taught in non-European schools and colleges?
I'm not sure I understand your point, but I definitely agree with your statement.MarcoD said:To put it to an extreme: ponder on those individuals from the Roman era. They were about half your size, had bad teeth, a foul breath, were disease ridden, almost completely illiterate, full of bigot ideas, and most of them were barely surviving. If people like that would move next to your house, you would be tempted to move out.
ThomasT said:I'm not sure I understand your point, but I definitely agree with your statement.
ThomasT said:I'm not sure I understand your point, but I definitely agree with your statement.
Ken Natton said:And on the matter of independent Scotland’s and independent Wales’s position in the wider world, there is the whole business of membership of the European Union. Despite the obvious contradiction with the fundamental notion of nationalism, the way that both The Scottish Nationalist Party and Plaid Cymru deal with the argument that countries with such a small population would suffer significant disadvantage on the world stage, is to advocate membership of the European Union, independent of the UK. As a notion, it might well have some merit. But if the populations of Wales and Scotland feel themselves marginalised within the UK, there has to be some question marks over their likely contentedness with governance from Brussels.
SW VandeCarr said:It's not clear that Scotland and particularly Wales would be immediately admitted to the EU. Why should they be? How would their credit be evaluated? There are still countries like Turkey which have long been waiting to join and whose economic record in recent years has been fairly good; certainly better than Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland. Turkey's interest in EU membership has correspondingly declined. That doesn't mean that the EU would be ready to welcome Scotland and Wales as members, especially if, like the Cameron government, they're not very willing to help the PIIGS.
SW VandeCarr said:Instead of governance from Brussels, there is more and more talk of de facto governance from Berlin. Germany is really driving the issue as the country with the deepest pockets and a public which is increasingly unwilling to lend money to troubled economies. As such, Germany, acting thorough the EU, is in a position to influence the European Central Bank (ECB) and IMF to impose unpopular, but probably necessary fiscal measures. Germany is pushing for more centralization of powers in the EU.
It's not clear that Scotland and particularly Wales would be immediately admitted to the EU. Why should they be? How would their credit be evaluated? There are still countries like Turkey which have long been waiting to join and whose economic record in recent years has been fairly good; certainly better than Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland. Turkey's interest in EU membership has correspondingly declined. That doesn't mean that the EU would be ready to welcome Scotland and Wales as members, especially if, like the Cameron government, they're not very willing to help the PIIGS.
I agree with the essence of your points, which I take to be the view that unmitigated nationalism, and the appeal to historical conflicts and separations, only perpetuates divisiveness to no good purpose. On the other hand, if the creation of an independent political entitiy would benefit the lot of the common people involved, then it would seem to be a good thing to pursue.MarcoD said:To Thomas and Ken. No I agitate against some 'romantic' historical perspectives of Nationalists. Like 'We the X fought off them Y for centuries.' Those romantic perspectives are often popularized in movies.
But if you look at the facts, it is chance you're part of a certain population, a nation is a social construct, it is highly debatable what kind of relation people have -or should have- with something as abstract as a nation, your genes probably have been that much diluted that it makes no sense to really 'establish' a relation with historical figures or individuals, you have little responsibility wrt to the accounts of other individuals, and if you would look at those particular historical individuals, you probably wouldn't particularly like them.
Most of the feeling or rhetoric is hogwash. It just appeals to people who like to play 'megalomaniac' games on world maps.
It seems to be close.LONDON (Reuters) - An opinion poll showing Scottish independence campaigners have a slim lead nine days before a crucial referendum has highlighted reasons for the wider world and investors to pay heed to the Sept. 18 vote, which could see Britain lose 5.3 million Scots.
Foreign governments and financial markets had long assumed Scots would view independence from the United Kingdom as too risky a leap but the sudden swing, confirmed by another survey showing the two camps neck-and-neck, has exploded such complacency.
Ken Natton said:As an Englishman, I do not align myself with the views expressed by either Steamking or AlephZero. I find it difficult to understand how either of them think that their comments are helpful.
SteamKing said:I'm not sure what a 'helpful' comment would mean on this issue.