Medical Can't sleep, thinking too much.

[JesseC]

Wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to why I can lay in bed in hours, trying unsuccessfully to sleep, while my brain is going on a roller coaster of thoughts.

It doesn't happen every night, but it is frustrating since I never remember what I was thinking about in the morning.

 

[lisab]

I finally came to the realization that coffee affects me for many, many hours after drinking it. If I have coffee (or any caffeine after 10:00 am) I will have trouble sleeping.

Beyond that, exercise is a huge help, too. Just not too soon before bedtime.

 

[dydxforsn]

It could be a symptom of anxiety, not that you're staying up thinking about things you are anxious about, but I believe the brain chemistry of the condition "anxiety" often leads to being more talkative at night, a night person, thinking heavily at night preventing sleep, etc.

I'm not saying you have anxiety (just an awareness of how little things one does can often be actual symptoms for slight mental conditions can be enlightening for a society that only knowingly experiences fever, cough, etc. - more tangible symptoms), and if this was the main symptom you would be FAR from needing treatment, but I can suggest a technique that works for me when I go through fairly severe bouts of this.

Think about nothing.

It's actually pretty hard to do, but is very enlightening. It also takes talent and skill, a real feat of intelligence thinking about nothing is! heh, but really, do try it, not that I'm saying it isn't boring... Of course, sleep often is.

Edit* Oh, I thought this was the social section and not the medical section.. I wouldn't have been so ad hominem about things if I noticed that, nonetheless I'm leaving this post here because it could help. I could have easily referenced insomnia as being an obvious symptom of anxiety, but as far as being "more talkative" at night, I couldn't reference it so easily other than the fact that I distinctly remember being asked that in a psychiatrist's office during an anxiety diagnosis session.

 

[Feodalherren]

Happens to me too when I'm not really tired but go to bed anyway. I've wondered it myself too. It seems that "active thought" makes you unable to sleep. Once you lose control over your dream you fall asleep. I notice this if I wake up right before falling asleep too, I wasn't in control of my own surroundings anymore, things were just happening.

 

[Borg]

Wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to why I can lay in bed in hours, trying unsuccessfully to sleep, while my brain is going on a roller coaster of thoughts.

It doesn't happen every night, but it is frustrating since I never remember what I was thinking about in the morning.

Do you have a regular sleep schedule? I go to sleep at the same time each day and get up at the same time. I also read for about 15 minutes until I start to get sleepy. It usually takes me no more that a few minutes to fall asleep - even if I drink coffee an hour before.

 

[JesseC]

It could be a symptom of anxiety.

Well it does seem to happen more often when I'm stressed e.g. deadlines approaching. In fact I have exams next week!

Do you have a regular sleep schedule?

I am lacking in a schedule at the moment because I'm on holiday. But even when I have regular weekly lectures etc. I don't always sleep at the same time each night. Often I sleep quite late, so 12.30am is typically an early night, with a large amount of time in the evening spent in front of a computer screen. Unfortunately using a computer is kind of essential for everything I do at the moment...

 

[Borg]

I am lacking in a schedule at the moment because I'm on holiday. But even when I have regular weekly lectures etc. I don't always sleep at the same time each night. Often I sleep quite late, so 12.30am is typically an early night, with a large amount of time in the evening spent in front of a computer screen. Unfortunately using a computer is kind of essential for everything I do at the moment...

It doesn't sound like you have a sleep schedule whether you're on holiday or not. I use a computer for everything that I do also. Try setting a specific time to go to sleep and get up - don't sleep in just because you can that day. It takes a few days to acclimate but it's well worth it. For what it's worth, I got to sleep at 8:30 - 9pm and get up at 3:30 - 4am. I don't set my alarm on the weekend but still get up about the same time.

 

[Borg]

Here's a link to How to Fall Asleep. My sleep and exercise routines match the article pretty closely.

 

[berkeman]

Wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to why I can lay in bed in hours, trying unsuccessfully to sleep, while my brain is going on a roller coaster of thoughts.

It doesn't happen every night, but it is frustrating since I never remember what I was thinking about in the morning.

Two things have helped me greatly over the years. I too have some nights when I keep thinking about some problems or issues, and that keeps me awake. So I use two tricks to get me out of that state...

First, when I realize that I'm keeping myself awake by thinking about things, I say to myself, "No talking". That usually stops the talking/thinking for a bit, and if it starts again, I just say "No talking" again to remind myself that it will take silence for me to be able to go to sleep.

Another trick that I found lately is to use visuals to distract myself and provide some entertainment as I fall asleep. If I look around a bit (with eyes closed obviously), I can often see patterns. They vary all the way from just texture like you would see on a textured plaster wall, to geometric patterns, faces, landscapes, and so on. The patterns are transitory, usually fading within a few seconds, but then some other pattern starts to form. Sometimes I fall asleep and the patterns turn into lucid dreams, which makes for a very fun night!

So maybe give those two tricks a try. They have been a very big help to me.

 

[Monique]

I say to myself, "No talking".

Or say "later, not now", that also works

 

[berkeman]

Or say "later, not now", that also works

 

[AnTiFreeze3]

... I also read for about 15 minutes until I start to get sleepy ...

^ This works wonders for me. A nice paperback will help calm me down (you typically are only thinking about the book itself, and not any of your petty everyday issues that might keep you up at night), but just make sure that the book isn't too good. I have had nights where I start reading at 10pm, and finally set the book down at 12pm, simply because it was too good of a book to stop reading.

As a side note, I think I benefit from positive thinking before I go to bed. My wandering mind never settles on negative aspects of my day, but I'm usually imagining some odd scenario where I'm giving a speech, or writing a paper on who knows what (I usually forget shortly after), or am simply having a conversation with a nameless persona.

One particularly memorable instance of monomania was when I was thinking about conducting an interview as the President of the United States of America, and was answering random questions about our country, or my views on any given subject.

Boy, was I crafty

 

[turbo]

I have a similar problem, but on the opposite end of the sleep-cycle. I conk out practically as soon as my head hits the pillow, but in the morning when I wake up too early I can lie there trying to process my dreams, etc, and have trouble falling back asleep.

 

[cobalt124]

I find meditation and breathing exercises help this. Giving my attention to doing this instead of thinking about whatever was going on at the time helped to relax me and then I would fall asleep. In fact I would listen to meditation exercises on earphones and I was always asleep before they ended so never once got to hear them all the way through. As for the reason why, sometimes I just think too much, obsessively, and often to no good end and its a waste of time. I needed to learn how to relax. As has been mentioned, stress and diet can also contribute.

 

[SimsStuart]

Wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to why I can lay in bed in hours, trying unsuccessfully to sleep, while my brain is going on a roller coaster of thoughts.

It doesn't happen every night, but it is frustrating since I never remember what I was thinking about in the morning.

This sort of sleep disorder is fairly common, and there isn't one source or cause that has been identified, so a course of action for solving the problem is difficult to postulate. I would suggest that you make an effort to play as hard as you work in an attempt to counterbalance the negative neurological affects in your life with a commensurate quantity of positive affects. If you find yourself stressed out about a test, go out and have some fun. And I don't mean go out drinking or indulge in any other form of artificial joy

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to why I can lay in bed in hours, trying unsuccessfully to sleep, while my brain is going on a roller coaster of thoughts.

I deal with this just about every night. For some reason I tend to use the time when I get right into bed to review the entire past day, prepare for the next day and contemplate deep philosophical questions lol. Sometimes it takes me an hour to get to sleep. I've long recognized I do this and try to make an effort to "shut up" my brain and relax. Most things can wait for the morning. At most I allow myself to think about a few good things that happened that day and that puts me in a good relaxed mood.

 

[jim hardy]

I don't want to get off on a personal theory here, 'cause I'm no expert and it's against site policy.

But i will share my experience.

1. For me, sleep before midnight does a lot more good than sleep after midnight. Late nights make me feel hyperactive, thinking impaired(loggy) and anxious. Don't know why, probably some biological rhythm of my own. But it can become a habit to stay up too late.

2. Our brain is divided into sections, simply put "old" and "new".
They interact not like one would think. And a lot during sleep.
Here's an article so you won't think I'm nuts:
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/ucla-scientists-discover-that-239347.aspx

My sister , who has psychological training, taught me to pay attention to my dreams.
That famous shrink Carl Jung believed it is through dreams that the "old" and "new" brains communicate, as my sister says " working out their differences at night."

From what you describe, you have a lot of mental activity just before retiring for sleep.

My advice would be:
1. Try earlier nights, get up at 4 or 5 am. Make that your high activity period.
If your biorythms are like mine you'll feel better soon. And the quality of your work will go up.

2. Get yourself a copy of "Man and his Symbols" by Carl Jung and pay attention to his observations on patients who discuss their dreams. See if your personality includes any of his "Archetypes" just for curiosity's sake... .
Then start yourself a dream log, a little notebook aside your alarm clock, where you jot down what was in your mind the instant you awake as well as any dreams you remember. Most dreams slip away after only a couple minutes so it's important to capture them immediately on waking.

As my sister says - "Every dream is a telegram from your subconcious." She taught me to open them.


mentors - if this post is inapprppriate, just delete .

 

[Evo]

My sister , who has psychological training, taught me to pay attention to my dreams.
That famous shrink Carl Jung believed it is through dreams that the "old" and "new" brains communicate, as my sister says " working out their differences at night."

2. Get yourself a copy of "Man and his Symbols" by Carl Jung and pay attention to his observations on patients who discuss their dreams. See if your personality includes any of his "Archetypes" just for curiosity's sake... .
Then start yourself a dream log, a little notebook aside your alarm clock, where you jot down what was in your mind the instant you awake as well as any dreams you remember. Most dreams slip away after only a couple minutes so it's important to capture them immediately on waking.

As my sister says - "Every dream is a telegram from your subconcious." She taught me to open them.

Not to be "Debbie Downer" on Jung, but...

Long revered as one of the founding fathers of psychoanalysis and the mystical godfather of New Age spirituality, Carl Jung appears—in Richard Noll's fascinating new biography—as a bit of a dangerous crackpot who could have used some professional help.

Noll charts Jung's youthful flirtations with spiritualism and the growth of his faith in the therapeutic value of polygamy, sun worship, Teutonic mythology and intense communion with one's pure-blooded Aryan ancestors. After an ugly break with Freud, several love affairs with his own patients and (in an episode long suppressed from Jung's memoirs and biographies) a series of visions in which he saw himself as an ancient lion-headed god, Jung convinced himself that his school of psychiatry was a messianic religious cult with valid proto-Nazi, anti-Semitic, neopagan overtones—and he was the Aryan Christ at its center.

Destined to be controversial, Noll's thoughtful and lucidly written study may make its readers think twice before joining a New Age Jungian healing circle

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20123679,00.html

Noll is a professor of the history of science at Harvard.

 

[OCR]

indulge in any other form of artificial joy

Lol, that could likely give a person that nasty... "false sense of well being"

Lol... or a "false sense of well being", as in euphoria.

What's so bad about a little euphoria?...

Seems a lot better than it's counter part.

OCR...

 

[berkeman]

Temp closed for Moderation

Re-opened.

 

[jim hardy]

Thanks, Mentors

Indeed Jung has his fans and his detractors.

A friend of mine put it well: "We're all diamonds , with some facets that are polished and some that are rough."

Professor Noll says as much about Jung in this interview at


See around 05:05 and 12:12.

 

[Evo]

Thanks, Mentors

Indeed Jung has his fans and his detractors.

A friend of mine put it well: "We're all diamonds , with some facets that are polished and some that are rough."

Professor Noll says as much about Jung in this interview at


See around 05:05 and 12:12.

I didn't get that all all, and I watched the entire video. Did you post the right video, because this one is very honest about Jung's mental problems and Aryan/anti-semitic views.

 

[jim hardy]

I didn't get that all all, and I watched the entire video. Did you post the right video, because this one is very honest about Jung's mental problems and Aryan/anti-semitic views.

To be honest Evo i was flabbergasted to see "People" magazine cited as a source in a science forum,
So i went direct to the source, an interview with the actual author..

What i saw in that interview was an author who wants to sell books so stirs up a controversy.
He credited Jung with excellent work in his field, if you listen.

What i saw in the 'People' book review was pure titillation, intended to make people feel superior by looking down on others .

Here's a more balanced review from a more reputable-looking scientific journal:

Just a little more than a decade ago, Jung's personality took a beating in biographies by Richard Noll (The Jung Cult, 1997) and the Aryan Christ (1997), and only somewhat less so in Frank McLynn's Carl Gustav Jung (1997). In that same year, a far more sympathetic and insightful little biography, The Wounded Jung: Effects of Jung's Relationships on His Life and Work, written by philosopher and historian Robert C. Smith, quietly appeared as if to compensate for these other rather one-sided assaults on Jung's character. In his book, Smith, who had actually at one time personally corresponded with Jung, emphasizes the profound effects of Jung's intimate interpersonal relationships, starting with his parents, on the great psychiatrists's life and work. He argues that it was mainly Jung's ambivalent feelings toward his mother--not his relationship with his father as most Jung biographers assume-- that exerted the most powerful influence on Jung's stormy yet extraordinary psychological development.
...
QUOTE]
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/201007/who-are-we-really-cg-jungs-split-personalityOne must remember this was shortly after the time of Nietzsche , the creator of the myth of a super-race . In what kind of world did he grow up?

One could point to "My Sister and I" if he wanted to bash Nietzsche,

I haven't read "Aryan Christ".
But I've read enough Jung to have respect for him. His "split brain " concept is turning out to have a possible physiological basis.


old jim

 

[Evo]

To be honest Evo i was flabbergasted to see "People" magazine cited as a source in a science forum,
So I went direct to the source, an interview with the actual author..

I thought the PR blurb from People was the most succint, and since this thread isn't about Jung (we are off topic at this point) it was all that was needed to explain his occult beliefs without getting into too much detail.

It is well known that Jung is considered a crackpot. That doesn't mean some people don't think of him as one. But seriously, it's no secret that he was very much into occultism and New Age nonsense has revived an interest in him. Just because at some point he had some normal ideas doesn't mean he's not a crackpot.

So, if you believe in the things he says, ok, but we need to get back to the thread topic.

 

[jim hardy]

we need to get back to the thread topic.

agreed

 

[jim hardy]

I guess the thread put Jesse asleep.

 

[JesseC]

I guess the thread put Jesse asleep.

I appreciate hearing other peoples anecdotes and advice. I did in fact try telling myself to "stop thinking" on a couple of occasions - it didn't work xD. Instead, I decided to try to complete a boring metal task - learning the alphabet backwards. It didn't work either but at least now can actually recite the alphabet backwards. I have now taken to getting away from the computer and reading a book for 15mins before sleep - I believe that this has helped. Will attempt to get into a regular sleeping pattern too.

In addition, as the NHS (http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Insomnia/Pages/Introduction.aspx) and a number of posters here have pointed out, stress doesn't help. So I'm hoping for some improvement now that exams are over.

To be honest I didn't understand the psychological debates, which appear to have now been heavily moderated, so I won't comment!

So thanks everyone for your input.

 

[berkeman]

I guess the thread put Jesse asleep.

I appreciate hearing other peoples anecdotes and advice. I did in fact try telling myself to "stop thinking" on a couple of occasions - it didn't work xD. Instead, I decided to try to complete a boring metal task - learning the alphabet backwards. It didn't work either but at least now can actually recite the alphabet backwards. I have now taken to getting away from the computer and reading a book for 15mins before sleep - I believe that this has helped. Will attempt to get into a regular sleeping pattern too.

In addition, as the NHS (http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Insomnia/Pages/Introduction.aspx) and a number of posters here have pointed out, stress doesn't help. So I'm hoping for some improvement now that exams are over.

To be honest I didn't understand the psychological debates, which appear to have now been heavily moderated, so I won't comment!

So thanks everyone for your input.

Did you try the closed-eye visuals thing?

 

[JesseC]

Did you try the closed-eye visuals thing?

Not yet, I'll try it out tonight if I have trouble sleeping!

 

[berkeman]

Even if it doesn't always help you sleep, it is almost always entertaining. Hang in there!

 

[Nano-Passion]

Can't give you any advice here, you have to eliminate as many things as possible to find the root cause.

A possible cause of sleeplessness is anxiety or fast thoughts, just these two symptoms alone can be linked to a number of things so its hard for us to suggest a cause for your sleeplessness. With that said, it is best you seek a professional. Personally, I used to take hours to sleep at times. I tried a lot of things but they didn't work. It ended up being from bipolar disorder (I was recently diagnosed to my surprise). I now sleep much much quicker since I have started medication (lithium) - and I'm glad I did.

 

[phion]

It is well known that Jung is considered a crackpot.

After glossing through Liber Novus for the first time my opinion about everything Jung wrote changed dramatically, but I always thought it was all a bit over-wrought. He went way off the deep end during the period that book was... written. It did, however, keep me up for hours. Surprised I didn't have nightmares.

 

[RabbitWho]

I find that when I go to bed it normally takes me an hour to go to sleep, but if I put an audiobook on the computer and tell it to turn itself off after an hour I don't even get to hear 15 minutes of the story before I'm gone. Maybe if you can find something like that to focus your thoughts you'll do better.

Or try learning to mediate, because it's all about keeping out thoughts and it helps with concentration as well as insomnia. It's soooooooo hard though, I can't keep from thinking.