American freedom, American values

[balkan]

RE: "John ... why is there worldwide terrorism? Tell me."

Because there are a lot of sick people who know that smashing the weak in the mouth hard enough will get them what they want. Extortion is hardly difficult to understand.

lol, man... i bet you even believe most of what you're saying... it's always interesting to observe though, but I've had enough of figthing with people like you, to know that it's not worth trying to reason with you... keep it going... people like you, extremists, terrorists and insane people are sure making things better everywhere...

figth fire with fire bro! ;)

 

[balkan]

Just because you don't understand out system of election doesn't mean that our president is unelected.

the point was:
since nobody has elected america as the worlds policeman... you figure out the rest...

 

[member 5645]

the point was:
since nobody has elected america as the worlds policeman... you figure out the rest...

my mistake then...


We are elected the policeman through other countries' inaction. And I personally hate it.

Just thinking about Iraq:
We sat throughout the 90's without really touching Iraq.
We sat another 4 years after they kicked inspectors out.

What was England, France, Germany, Russia, or China doing at this point to take care of the problem? That was a four year window for any country in Europe to say "hey, we'll take the helm and spend our money/men/resources to make sure he doesn't become a problem". Then it would be up to us to offer a better alternative.

It didn't happen, and now everyone is unhappy with our solution

 

[the number 42]

Just because you don't understand out system of election doesn't mean that our president is unelected.

Yes - please pay attention, phatmonky

Ironically, it brings up Bush's status as an elected leader. I know some of you are going to say "Jeez, not that trivial matter again", but at least the US can't claim to be fighting for democracy in the world.

 

[member 5645]

Yes - please pay attention, phatmonky

Get off my balls. I already responded.

 

[member 5645]

but at least the US can't claim to be fighting for democracy in the world.

We absolutely can be. It is not inherant in a democracy that you allow those outside of your electorate to decide what you do, no matter how much they dislike it.

 

[balkan]

We absolutely can be. It is not inherant in a democracy that you allow those outside of your electorate to decide what you do, no matter how much they dislike it.

? this is a very weird sentence... please elaborate...

... you don't get elected policeman by lack of action from other civilians... that's still vigilate... "my God! he's not attacking his neighbor who has been mostly quiet for the last 5 years... i'll have to do something about it and go in, guns blazing... and if the kids are in there, to bad..."

furthermore: "i don't need no stinkin' badges, or no help from those pesky neighbors..."
^ that is, until he finds himself in quite a mess... and now the neigbors are pissed of all the noise and of being called "pesky"...

and then, an ant, whose brothers were killed by the same vigilante some years ago, pissed on his leg...

the motion picture rights are reserved to me, my friends...

 

[JohnDubYa]

RE: "lol, man... i bet you even believe most of what you're saying.."

My mistake. Obviously extortion IS beyond some people's comprehension. I will be more careful about making such gross generalizations in the future.

 

[JohnDubYa]

RE: "Hate to break it to ya, but I don't think this war on terror of America's has gained America any respect worldwide."

Hate to break it to you, but the world wasn't going to respect the US no matter what we did. (Unless the world was wanting us to hand over our security to the United Nations -- which is essentially no security at all.)

 

[JohnDubYa]

RE: "What was England, France, Germany, Russia, or China doing at this point to take care of the problem?"

They were waiting to see if we would do anything about it so that they could criticize us.

 

[balkan]

RE: "lol, man... i bet you even believe most of what you're saying.."

My mistake. Obviously extortion IS beyond some people's comprehension. I will be more careful about making such gross generalizations in the future.

of course... extortion creates terrorism... not people fighting for their way of life or as revenge for unjustice, hunger, poverty or whatever they think their enemy has thrown at them... i get it now...
so when did osama and his gang convert from being freedom figthers to being terrorists? you have to help me here... and exactly what was the demands when the towers blew or when about 80% of the suicide bombers killed themselves and someone else? i mean... if it's extortion you'd have to have some clear demands, right? or are most terrorists just really bad extortionists?

 

[balkan]

i wonder why so few people in wealthy countrys become terrorists? i mean... it would be much easier to extort rich people that way... not so far away... a lot more access to rich people and buildings with important people in them...

it must be because arabs and their ilk are all evil... i mean... it can't be because their poor and hungry and blame it on someone, cause john says it isn't so, and he's very smart... he knows the meaning of the word "extortion" and i don't...
it must be because they hate so much that we have freedom, that 1 in a million might be willing to travel a long, long way to kill some of us... usually that's not necessary though, cause we've invaded and aided quite a few countrys in the last few decades... (but that's not what they're mad about, they're just really bad extortionists)

 

[member 5645]

? this is a very weird sentence... please elaborate...

... you don't get elected policeman by lack of action from other civilians... that's still vigilate... "my God! he's not attacking his neighbor who has been mostly quiet for the last 5 years... i'll have to do something about it and go in, guns blazing... and if the kids are in there, to bad..."

furthermore: "i don't need no stinkin' badges, or no help from those pesky neighbors..."
^ that is, until he finds himself in quite a mess... and now the neigbors are pissed of all the noise and of being called "pesky"...

and then, an ant, whose brothers were killed by the same vigilante some years ago, pissed on his leg...

the motion picture rights are reserved to me, my friends...

His statement was that we can't claim to be fighting for democracy.
One, we are a democracy, of sorts, so the prerequisite of being what we are spreading is there. The act of going against what other democracies want our democracy to do does not negate that fact that we can claim that we are fighting for democracy. In fact, as I have stated before on this board, I will laugh at all of the critics when Iraq holds it's first elections in 2005.

As for the rest of your post, about "my God! he's not attacking his neighbor who has been mostly quiet for the last 5 years".
Iraq isn't just about Iraq's neighbors. I don't remember this argument being made.

I'll just copy and paste my reasoning, that has been posted before, for supporting, and continuing to support, this war. And all of my reasonings still hold even if you remove everything said by the Bush Admin. HINT: It's a little more than "let's just go in gun blazing..."

Now, for the rest of this.
Reasons alone range from the original armistice agreement that gives us such authorization, signed and broken, by Saddam. Then there's the human rights thing the firing on US aircraft enforcing the agreed no fly zones, Resolution 1441 (and the rest of the SC resolutions).
You say "no connection between Iraq and Saddam ", and I assume you mean"no connection between Al quaeda and Saddam ". I really wish you and others would quit the lies. The 9/11 commission found that there was no working relationship between the two in any attack on the US (specifically 9/11) Which again, I don't even consider Iraq part of 9/11, but more a loose end that needs tying up..
I was shocked to find people on this board who were shocked to see this:
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9902/13/afghan.binladen/
(Saddam offers Bin Laden Asylum, ie, offers to harbor him). Perhaps we can just skip this as well and keep on pushing the lie that Iraq had no connection with al quaeda. I will be glad to pull the PBS documentary that explores Iraqs terrorist training rooms as well. (I posted the link recently)

Now the WMD. We know they existed because Saddam said they did, after the UN failed at their job. I also wonder if you are aware how inspections work - HINT: Inspectors don't go walking around the desert searching for them inthe ground.

And for the rest, since I've hashed this a million times. A post from before abotu this:

Keep in mind that even David Kaye says that there was evidence of WMD programs in Iraq, but they had been slowed dramatically by sanctions. The intent was still there.
WMD or not, the questions have to be -

How long would it take before a system of containment, funded primarily by the US, take to break Saddam, or future leaders', resolve to develop WMD?

On a longer timeline would containment have worked at all, considering programs were still being developed and only time was against them?

Is containment (over a democratic Iraq)better or worse for the Iraqi people?

Is containment (over a democratic Iraq) better or worse for the United States?

Is containment (over a democratic Iraq) better or worse for the rest of the world?

Is the refusal to go to war worth the possibility that WMD are being developed, or already are developed?



After pondering this all I come to the conclusion that the answer to "should we have gone to war" is an unequivocal 'yes'. There have been no other alternatives that end with:

-a liberation of an oppressed people
-a new trading partner
-a new security partner
-the ability to hold a nation, not just one man, accountable for it's actions
-the knowledge that Iraq is fully in compliance with the original ceasfire guidlines
-a catalyst for democracy in the region

The only other real alternative put forth thus far is containment and inspections.
After 13 years this accompolished none of the above, not even the original goal of simply knowing that Iraq is, in fact, in compliance with the original ceasefire agreement.

There was no other option.

 

[member 5645]

if it's extortion you'd have to have some clear demands, right?

perhaps you do not watch the news?

 

[Entropy]

i wonder why so few people in wealthy countrys become terrorists?

Lots of wealthy people become terrorists. Osama was from a rich family.

 

[JohnDubYa]

RE: "of course... extortion creates terrorism... not people fighting for their way of life or as revenge for unjustice, hunger, poverty or whatever they think their enemy has thrown at them... i get it now..."

Terrorism IS extortion.

If someone wants to lead a rebel insurgency, then I understand. You arm yourself and your believers and go into battle. If you can garner sufficient support from the people, you can overcome the government's army and install your own government. If you can't garner the support, then maybe your cause isn't just after all.

That is NOT terrorism. Instead of overcoming an opponent's army, terrorists attack the innocent. They don't shoot the lieutenant; they shoot the children.

Terrorism is an act of desparation. The world considers their cause unjust. The public won't support them because they're a bunch of extremist wack-jobs. So they resort to the last tactic they have -- killing as many innocent people as they can.

RE: "so when did osama and his gang convert from being freedom figthers to being terrorists? you have to help me here..."

I am not sure that Osama was ever a freedom fighter. I am not that privvy to his background.

"...and exactly what was the demands when the towers blew or when about 80% of the suicide bombers killed themselves and someone else? i mean... if it's extortion you'd have to have some clear demands, right? or are most terrorists just really bad extortionists?"

The demands are that the US get out of the Middle East and stop helping Isreal. That has always been the demand.

 

[JohnDubYa]

RE: "i wonder why so few people in wealthy countrys become terrorists?"

Easy. Wealthy countries have stable governments and police forces, and there is no public support for such activity. Also, wealthy countries have top-notch criminal investigators. The few terrorist groups we have had in this country (SLA, the Weathermen, MOVE) never gained public support and were quashed by the police.

RE: "it must be because arabs and their ilk are all evil... i mean... it can't be because their poor and hungry and blame it on someone...

Many parts of Mexico are poor and hungry, but I don't see a lot of terrorist activity. Poverty is no excuse for intentionally killing innocent people.

As for the rest, I will respond once you quit resorting to the Fallacy of Limited Options.

 

[balkan]

perhaps you do not watch the news?

that's the 20% who actually does demand something... rigth now, the majority of the people the us government calls terrorists doesn't make demands... maybe you don't watch the news?

 

[balkan]

Lots of wealthy people become terrorists. Osama was from a rich family.

compared to the amount of poor or compromized people? get real...
and osama lived in a poor and compromized land for many years (palestine)... where do those rich people live that become terrorists? i said in wealthy countrys... not "rich people"

 

[balkan]

As for the rest, I will respond once you quit resorting to the Fallacy of Limited Options.

go back some posts and see who started the Fallacy of Limited Options, m8... i don't bite unless people patronize me. when treated with respect in spite of different oppinion, I'm quite civilized.
typical conservatism (in regards to politics, not personality)... they can dish out, but they get offended when people strike back...

 

[member 5645]

No offense dubya, but can you start using the quote feature? I'd like to respond to you but it's a ***** with the quatation marks everywhere.

 

[member 5645]

that's the 20% who actually does demand something... rigth now, the majority of the people the us government calls terrorists doesn't make demands... maybe you don't watch the news?

So you admit that plenty of terrorist do make demands?
Can you cite me this 20% figure?

 

[JohnDubYa]

go back some posts and see who started the Fallacy of Limited Options,

I did. And you started the Fallacy of Limited Options when you posted

of course... extortion creates terrorism... not people fighting for their way of life or as revenge for unjustice, hunger, poverty or whatever they think their enemy has thrown at them..

it must be because arabs and their ilk are all evil... i mean... it can't be because their poor and hungry and blame it on someone,

 

[JohnDubYa]

Balkan, your first post in this thread was a blatant insult:

lol, man... i bet you even believe most of what you're saying... it's always interesting to observe though, but I've had enough of figthing with people like you, to know that it's not worth trying to reason with you... keep it going... people like you, extremists, terrorists and insane people are sure making things better everywhere...

 

[the number 42]

Get off my balls. I already responded.

Sorry about your balls, dude. Send me the bill for any damages

 

[Entropy]

compared to the amount of poor or compromized people? get real...
and osama lived in a poor and compromized land for many years (palestine)... where do those rich people live that become terrorists? i said in wealthy countrys... not "rich people"

Combine, Oklahoma City bombing, that dude from American who joined Osama, The Buffalo Six, John Walker Lindh, Jose Padilla, The Portland Six, KKK, Neo Nazi's, PETA (they ARE terrorists), pro-life extremists, the Mob (and orgainized crime), etc.

I can go on all day. There all American, and America is the wealthest country in the world. And still Osama left his wealth life to go live in Palistine.

(100th post )

 

[balkan]

congratz :D...

the mob? now you're far fetching...

anyway all you need to do is simple math...
btw: 90-95% of neo-nazis aren't terrorists... just stupid...
that dude from america was one guy...
The Buffalo Six, John Walker Lindh, Jose Padilla, The Portland Six ...
divide "all" those people by just the amount of cells in al queda and you'll get a very small number... need i say more?
My point with osama was exactly that his experiences in palestine nurtured the war against usa... if palestine isn't poor and compromized i don't know what is...
again, though... your argument brings us rigth back to the matter... people like kkk and extremists are figthing for something they believe really hard in, and because they're angry and want a change... now, look at the countrys where people really have something to figth for and be mad about, and then tell me they're just simple extortionists... they are people with a cause... just like the ones you mentioned... willing to go use any means to get their case through... not just crazy people who wants to get their hands on some money like previously implied...
the amount of terrorists from wealthy countrys (and don't forget, that 30 million americans get food aid every year, so it's not exactly everyone who's got everything going for them...) compared to the amount from poor and unstable countrys are ridiculously small... it's really not even debatable...

 

[balkan]

Balkan, your first post in this thread was a blatant insult:

damn man... i don't even remember posting that... must have been summer drunk or very tired...
i'm sure i meant what i wrote, but i apologize for the tone... it was completely uncalled for...

 

[JohnDubYa]

It's cool.

 

[JohnDubYa]

the mob? now you're far fetching...

Have you ever heard of Chicago insurance?

I agree with you on one point -- the Mob is not a political organization, and terrorists are normally associated with political activity. But there is no doubt that the Mob uses terror to extort money from innocent people.

My point with osama was exactly that his experiences in palestine nurtured the war against usa... if palestine isn't poor and compromized i don't know what is...

Historically, the Palestinians do not have nearly the same problems as the Russians when it comes to hardship. In fact, Palestinian living conditions are found all over the world, on nearly every continent. To think that such living conditions is an excuse for terrorism is ludicrous.

 

[JohnDubYa]

they are people with a cause... just like the ones you mentioned... willing to go use any means to get their case through... not just crazy people who wants to get their hands on some money like previously implied...

I think we know that money is not their motivation. They certainly have a cause. But their cause is no excuse for the pain they cause others.

Again, they target those that have nothing to do with their problems -- just as long as they are vulnerable. So you are dealing with the type of people who are not going to kick your ass if they feel you caused them harm; they're going to go after your mother because she is the easier target.

By the way, you are dangerously close to becoming a terrorist apologist. And that is the type of sentiment that fuels their fire.

 

[studentx]

Id say the major cause of terrorism today is political Islam

 

[balkan]

I think we know that money is not their motivation. They certainly have a cause. But their cause is no excuse for the pain they cause others.

Again, they target those that have nothing to do with their problems -- just as long as they are vulnerable. So you are dealing with the type of people who are not going to kick your ass if they feel you caused them harm; they're going to go after your mother because she is the easier target.

By the way, you are dangerously close to becoming a terrorist apologist. And that is the type of sentiment that fuels their fire.

no I'm not... but understanding the background is the first step in solving the problem...

 

[balkan]

Have you ever heard of Chicago insurance?

I agree with you on one point -- the Mob is not a political organization, and terrorists are normally associated with political activity. But there is no doubt that the Mob uses terror to extort money from innocent people.

Historically, the Palestinians do not have nearly the same problems as the Russians when it comes to hardship. In fact, Palestinian living conditions are found all over the world, on nearly every continent. To think that such living conditions is an excuse for terrorism is ludicrous.

those other countrys don't have an invading force that for 50 years have relentlessly tried to dispose of every non-jew in the country... and don't give me any anti-semitist remarks, people, stating the facts doesn't make you an antisemite...
you keep saying I'm excusing... I'm not excusing anything... but if you think you're going to resolve these problems with violence, you're way off base imo...

 

[JohnDubYa]

you keep saying I'm excusing... I'm not excusing anything... but if you think you're going to resolve these problems with violence,

It would be better if you came out and stated that terrorists are really evil people. Otherwise, I'm starting to think that you consider them sentimental favorites.

We will never resolve this problem through any means other than violence and persistence, unless you want to give them what they want. Of course, every terrorist organization on the planet then would gain newfound strength for whichever cause they espouse.

We have to fight terrorism with violence so that other terrorist organizations realize that their attempts to extort the public will only bring pain on themselves. This issue is bigger than El Quada.