Are Civilian Casualties Ever Justifiable in Conflict Scenarios?

[JohnDubYa]

Careful Outcast, you don't want to wind up like Salman Rushdie, with the Muslim population vowing to kill you. (Cat Stevens' role in the threats has mysteriously been forgotten.)

 

[Outcast]

Careful Outcast, you don't want to wind up like Salman Rushdie, with the Muslim population vowing to kill you. (Cat Stevens' role in the threats has mysteriously been forgotten.)

They got more to worry about than just me. More people are beginning to wake up to the threat that Islam poses.

 

[Outcast]

Now your comparing Muhammed to Hitler! Is there no end to your bias?

Here is a nice little bedtime story about the religion of peace. The author is drawing a comparison between the actions of the German Nazis and the Islamic Turks.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/armromgen.htm

In the course of the First World War two thirds of Turkey's 2,100,000 Armenians were killed. Of the remainder, many were exiled, and the rest lived in fear.

A connection between the Armenian massacres of the First World War, and the policies pursued in the Second, has been alluded to be some scholars. The Armenian Genocide demonstrated that it was not difficult to implement such policies in time of war, and that the long-term repercussions were manageable. According to the Archives of the Nuremberg Proceedings, Hitler, at a meeting of SS units at Obersalzberg, on August 22, 1939, at which he instructed them "to kill, without pity, men, women and children" in their march against Poland, commented that such activities would have no long term repercussions. Who, he said, "remembers now the massacres of the Armenians?" (Staub, p.187, and 309)

Although the term genocide is at times used rather loosely, there is generally broad agreement among scholars that Gypsies and Jews during the period of Third Reich hegemony in Europe during the Second World War, and the Armenians of Turkey during the First, were all targeted for “destruction, in whole or in part”. In tracing the origins and implementation of these policies it is, as I sought to demonstrate, necessary to inquire into the nature of the structural relations that obtained between the perpetrators and victims of genocide, as it is the matrix of these relations that helps to explain why such policies emerged and particular groups were selected as victims.

And what would the god of Islam say about all of this?

Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an 9:111 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Ishaq:324 “Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must not have rivals.”

Qur’an 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”

Ishaq:300 “I am fighting in Allah’s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah’s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.”

Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’”

Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”

Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”

Ishaq:588 “When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.”

Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

I think the god of Islam would have been pleased with the way the Turks carried out his commandments.

 

[Smurf]

Lets make this fun!

Bible Quotes:

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)

"Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Matthew 10:34-35)

http://www.islam101.com had this to say:

It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate some verses from the Holy Quran for their own goals.
But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.

This guy's smart.

 

[Smurf]

Now some Koran Quotes !

"God commands justice, the doing of the good, and liberality to kith and kin. He
forbids all shameful deeds, injustice and rebellion. Thus does he instruct you, that you may receive admonition." 16:90

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of male and female, and made you
into nations and tribes, that he may know and cooperate with one another." 49:13

2.192. Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

 

[Outcast]

Lets make this fun!

Bible Quotes:


http://www.islam101.com had this to say:

This guy's smart.

Yes those things are in the Bible, but we are not talking about Christianity or Judaism. We are talking Islam. I understand for your need to change the subject.

 

[Smurf]

And the rest of my post?
tsk tsk, your avoiding the subject again :shy:

The bible quotes were to back up my argument, nothing more.

 

[Hurkyl]

I invoke Godwin's law. Outcast loses!

 

[Outcast]

And the rest of my post?
tsk tsk, your avoiding the subject again :shy:

The bible quotes were to back up my argument, nothing more.

And what argument was that?

 

[Smurf]

I believe I said this:

It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate some verses from the Holy Quran for their own goals.
But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.

And then gave some compassionate, peaceful quotes from the Koran.

 

[Outcast]

And the rest of my post?
tsk tsk, your avoiding the subject again :shy:

The bible quotes were to back up my argument, nothing more.

Tell me how those few quotes indicate there is not problem between Islam and the Western World? How does those few quotes refute 1400 years of history?

Also Godwin's law does not apply, because the comparison between Hitler and Muhammad is quite valid and not used as an insult.

 

[Smurf]

1400 years, let's see that'd be... since 604 AD.
Allow me to examine this time period in detail and I'll get back to you on it.

The proof that there is not problem between islam and the western world is all the Islamists living IN the western world, quite peacefully.

 

[Outcast]

I believe I said this:

And then gave some compassionate, peaceful quotes from the Koran.

http://www.islam101.com had this to say:
Quote:
It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate some verses from the Holy Quran for their own goals.
But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians.

If http://www.islam101.com had this to say:, then how can it be your arugment?

 

[Smurf]

Because that IS my argument. the first 2 lines:

It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted.

There is nothing extremist or violent about the Quran. Thats bad translation, propoganda, whatever you want to call it. A few terrorists who managed to manipulate a few sections from it does not make it evil.\

And what are you trying to get at about the 1400 years of history? That Islam hates christians? hates the west? or is just inherently violent?

 

[Outcast]

1400 years, let's see that'd be... since 604 AD.
Allow me to examine this time period in detail and I'll get back to you on it.

The proof that there is not problem between islam and the western world is all the Islamists living IN the western world, quite peacefully.

Yes, why don't you get back to me when you have some valid arguments. Next time do a little better than just a cut and paste from a website.

 

[Locrian]

Next time do a little better than just a cut and paste from a website.

As someone just standing by reading to learn, I find this statement to be absurd. When I look through your posts I don't see references... just a few quotes from holy scriptures (which he did as well) and whole lot of website links...

Making childish, snide remarks about cut and pasting from webistes would be at least minimally acceptable if you hadn't done the same yourself.

 

[Outcast]

As someone just standing by reading to learn, I find this statement to be absurd. When I look through your posts I don't see references... just a few quotes from holy scriptures (which he did as well) and whole lot of website links...

Making childish, snide remarks about cut and pasting from webistes would be at least minimally acceptable if you hadn't done the same yourself.

I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I stated my arguments, I posted material to support my arguments and referenced the material I posted. I thought there would be some serious discussion, but I was wrong.

Perhaps you should learn to read first, then read to learn.

 

[Locrian]

I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Well, that could certainly be true, though I don't see it as that complicated a post. You chide him for doing the same thing you did - post links to net sources. Is it any surprise you came back with the time honored "learn to read" response? For years this has been the knee-jerk of choice for those backed into a corner, and I suppose there is no reason to break tradition here.

No amount of insulting me will make your comment towards him any less petty and invalid.

 

[Smurf]

I invoke Godwin's law. Outcast loses!

It's been proven: Any intentional invocation of Godwin's Law for its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

 

[Artman]

Sadly Outcast, you're just illustrating the problem rather than describing it. Religious works cannot be taken literally without regard to the age that they were written, the intended audience of the work, or without the benefit of an overall understanding of the intent of the entire book. Furthermore, you are taking verses out of context for the purpose of proping up your misconceptions.

This is the same problem that moderate Christians have with many conservatives. They think that the literal meaning for a 20th century western person is the same as for a Middle Eastern person living in the time the passage was written. This is not the case, and it must be understood that way in order to gain any true insight from the passage.

The Muslims have the same type of problem with extremists. They take verses out of context, read them literally disregarding any understanding of different meaning to a person from the time it was written and apply them to their twisted view of the religion.

Thank you for your illustration of this process in action.

 

[Outcast]

I am just amazed at how blind people are. Nothing I said about history or currents events means anything.

So what you all are saying is that there is no problem between the Western World and Islam?

 

[Artman]

So what you all are saying is that there is no problem between the Western World and Islam?

There are other problems that you have not mentioned that are more difficult to overcome. For instance, Islam is a community religion for many of its followers. If one follower in the community starts to follow western culture and this leads to a negative effect, it is thought to effect the entire community and not just the offender. This is what makes US presence there such a problem even for the non-extremists.

Please understand that this is a basic explanation of my understanding of one of the problems.

 

[Outcast]

So it is ok with you folks that we a dual standard of law, one for Muslims and one for non-Muslims?

Muslim women who fled the strict Islamic laws in their home countries to live in a more liberal environment in Canada may now face a similar regime in Ontario, where a Muslim civil court for family disputes is being considered under the arbitration act.

http://www.rabble.ca/news_full_story.shtml?x=34084 So it is ok for Islamic women in Canada and soon to be the US to become second class citizens? It must be ok since there is no problem with Islam and Islamic law.

 

[Outcast]

There are other problems that you have not mentioned that are more difficult to overcome. For instance, Islam is a community religion for many of its followers. If one follower in the community starts to follow western culture and this leads to a negative effect, it is thought to effect the entire community and not just the offender. This is what makes US presence there such a problem even for the non-extremists.

Please understand that this is a basic explanation of my understanding of one of the problems.

I am it total agree with your statement. That also applies when Muslims move to the Western World, their community moves with them so to speak, right?

 

[studentx]

I agree there's a problem with Islam and the problem is that it allows extremism to spread. I just disagree that its not a majority of muslims who want to kill westerners, and that "most iraqis" wouldn't use WMD on westerners if they could.

 

[Artman]

That also applies when Muslims move to the Western World, their community moves with them so to speak, right?

Yes. This is somewhat true, but our society is built from differing cultures.

I think my main point is that the majority of Muslims don't hate us, but view us in a way that is similar to a divorcing couple splitting up for irreconcilable differences. We don't hate each other, but we know we can't live together. I guess the ones who come over here view it as "staying together for the children" (better living conditions and more opportunities, outweighing the cultural problems).

 

[russ_watters]

That also applies when Muslims move to the Western World, their community moves with them so to speak, right?

I tend to think that they move to the West because they no longer fit with their community.

 

[Hurkyl]

It's been proven: Any intentional invocation of Godwin's Law for its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

I know. But I do it anyways because it makes a good lead-in for my typical next comment:

Also Godwin's law does not apply, because the comparison between Hitler and Muhammad is quite valid

You entirely miss the point of Godwin's law. Whether or not the comparison with Hitler or Nazis is valid, it is logically irrelevant to the issue at hand; the only purpose such a comparison serves is its emotional appeal. Since it is so obvious, it can be safely taken as a clear sign you don't have any logical argument to make in its place.

With that in mind...

Nothing I said about history or currents events means anything.

Then why did you say it? Stick to your point, don't go off on all these tangents.

So what you all are saying is that there is no problem between the Western World and Islam?

No, I am saying that I have no compelling reason to believe there is a problem with Islam and the western world.

 

[Smurf]

What I'd like to see is what exactly in the last 1400 years makes outcast believe that there is a problem.

 

[Outcast]

Yes. This is somewhat true, but our society is built from differing cultures.

I think my main point is that the majority of Muslims don't hate us, but view us in a way that is similar to a divorcing couple splitting up for irreconcilable differences. We don't hate each other, but we know we can't live together. I guess the ones who come over here view it as "staying together for the children" (better living conditions and more opportunities, outweighing the cultural problems).

Perhaps a good example would be like Nazi (again) Germany in WWII. Though we were at war, there was not strong underlying current of hate on either side. Nazi ca be divided into four groups. 1) Those that truly believed the propaganda. 2) Those that supported it for social or economical advantages. 3) Those that supported it out of fear of death or prison and 4) Those that were brainwashed: Hitler's Youth. Hitler's Youth was by far the most dangerous of Germany's soliders, even the regular German solider was afraid of them, because of their fantasm. I believe the same four groups exist in Islam. It is the fourth group of Muslims that is so dangerous to the Western World.

 

[Outcast]

I tend to think that they move to the West because they no longer fit with their community.

That may be true, along with wanting jobs and a better life. The problem arises when what the tried to leave behinds follows them. For example, in the article I posted
http://www.rabble.ca/news_full_story.shtml?x=34084 it says

Muslim women who fled the strict Islamic laws in their home countries to live in a more liberal environment in Canada may now face a similar regime in Ontario, where a Muslim civil court for family disputes is being considered under the arbitration act.

“Someone like me who was forced to leave her home country, exactly because of the re-Islamicization in our country,” said Haideh Moghissi, a sociologist at York University who came to Canada from Iran 20 years ago.

Moghissi has been interviewing migrant Muslim women in Canada for an academic project involving diaspora, Islam and gender, and says she discovered “a lot of resentment” towards the proposed Islam-based (Sharia) court.

“They have been brought to this country through the sponsorship of their husbands. They are dependent on (them) for various reasons and they simply don't have a say that the men have in cases like this. They can be pressured into arbitration,” she said.

As I posted to Artman about the four different groups, Islamic women appear to fall into the third group, they are being forced to accept strict Islamic beliefs by groups one.

Group one is also responsible for creating group four.

 

[Outcast]

What I'd like to see is what exactly in the last 1400 years makes outcast believe that there is a problem.

Smurf, if I were a serial killer or rapist, I would love to have you in the jury. If you can ignore almost 1400 years of warfare between the Western World and Islam, then you could easily ignore anything in a person's past history.

 

[Outcast]

I know. But I do it anyways because it makes a good lead-in for my typical next comment:


Then why did you say it? Stick to your point, don't go off on all these tangents.

I said it because I was using history to support my position. Then I came to realize that history doesn't mean anything on here. I was sticking to my point. " Islam and Christianity have had a problem with each other". The problem has existed for almost 1400 years.

 

[Smurf]

Smurf, if I were a serial killer or rapist, I would love to have you in the jury. If you can ignore almost 1400 years of warfare between the Western World and Islam, then you could easily ignore anything in a person's past history.

Ok, but what events specifically make you think that islam has been at war more than the west has been at war with them selves?
And what makes you think that we and them (aside from you) still hold grudges?

 

[Outcast]

Ok, but what events specifically make you think that islam has been at war more than the west has been at war with them selves?
And what makes you think that we and them (aside from you) still hold grudges?

We are not talking about the wars between Europeans, we are talking about the war between Islam and the Western World.

Events? Pick one starting with The Battle of the Yarmuk in 636 up until the present. When has Islam and the West not been at war during the last 1368 years?

http://www.citizensoldier.org/hateus.html The bottom line is that Muslims hate the West because the Koran tells Muslims that the West rejects Islam, and consequently is evil.

The Koran is confirmed to be true in the minds of Muslims by our own desire to throw out God's rules.

There are 14 reason given for that quote.

Grudges? Ever hear of Bosnia, Kosovc or the Spanish Reconquista?