Authentic Vaccines: Ensuring Safety at Vaccination Sites

[harjunmaa]

Falsified vaccines are not uncommon, as far as I know. How do they know a vaccine is authentic at a vaccination site that has no laboratory?

 

[berkeman]

Welcome to PF.

Falsified vaccines are not uncommon, as far as I know.

Can you provide a reference for that?

How do they know a vaccine is authentic at a vaccination site that has no laboratory?

By the distribution chain tracking I would imagine.

 

[PeroK]

Falsified vaccines are not uncommon, as far as I know. How do they know a vaccine is authentic at a vaccination site that has no laboratory?

The question applies to any medicines, either administered at a medical centre or bought over the counter. How do you know what you're buying really is ibuprofen, for example?

 

[Tom.G]

The question applies to any medicines, either administered at a medical centre or bought over the counter. How do you know what you're buying really is ibuprofen, for example?

I think the important part of the question bears on the severity of the consequences.

 

[PeroK]

I think the important part of the question bears on the severity of the consequences.

You mean that fake medicine can only harm or kill you if it's a fake vaccine? Fake antibiotics, malaria tablets or painkillers are much safer?

 

[Tom.G]

You mean that fake medicine can only harm or kill you if it's a fake vaccine? Fake antibiotics, malaria tablets or painkillers are much safer?

I was thinking in terms of ineffectiveness, which is at least, or perhaps more, likely.
Sorry if there was a lack of clarity there.

 

[harjunmaa]

Here's a reference. Understandably, the people who work on this want to keep a low profile. Let's help them keep it that way.

 

[russ_watters]

You mean that fake medicine can only harm or kill you if it's a fake vaccine? Fake antibiotics, malaria tablets or painkillers are much safer?

Are fake homeopathics safer or more dangerous than real ones?

Falsified vaccines are not uncommon, as far as I know. How do they know a vaccine is authentic at a vaccination site that has no laboratory?

Per the pointedly snarky response above, in developed countries the way to ensure authenticity is to get the vaccine from reputable sources, just like you do any other medicine. Per your source, you shouldn't go to some random dude with a website to get the vaccine. This is the entire reason the FDA and other countries' equivalent agencies exist and should be fairly obvious.

Here's a reference. Understandably, the people who work on this want to keep a low profile. Let's help them keep it that way.

Huh? Why would they need to keep a low profile? No, I don't think we should. The issue of fake vaccines will be more of a problem as less developed countries start distributing the vaccine. And Russia.

 

[hutchphd]

My response to the Moderna vaccine (in the US) was short and distinct. As an affirmative indicator I believe it could be useful. My second shot produced a distinct malaise and about 24 hr elevated body temperature. It would be difficult to replicate these responses with an inert surrogate.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Are fake homeopathics safer or more dangerous than real ones?

Yes.

It would be difficult to replicate these responses with an inert surrogate.

While I agree in general (modulo the placebo effect), the better question is "why"? To cover their tracks? That only works until people start getting sick.

One can take the "why" another level - how does anyone make any money from this? If you're going to commit a crime, shouldn't there be a payoff? In the US, the federal government buys the vaccine directly from the manufacturer. Why would anybody buy counterfeit vaccine when they can get the real stuff for free?

Furthermore, how much is a dose? A few dollars. Why would someone want to go into the business of counterfeiting vaccine when they can get more money for less risk for counterfeiting Gucci handbags?

 

[berkeman]

Yes.

What a watered down reply...

 

[harjunmaa]

Keeping a low profile is because we do not want to help counterfeiters. They can be smart, too.

 

[TeethWhitener]

One can take the "why" another level - how does anyone make any money from this? If you're going to commit a crime, shouldn't there be a payoff? In the US, the federal government buys the vaccine directly from the manufacturer. Why would anybody buy counterfeit vaccine when they can get the real stuff for free?

Furthermore, how much is a dose? A few dollars. Why would someone want to go into the business of counterfeiting vaccine when they can get more money for less risk for counterfeiting Gucci handbags?

Can you provide a reference for that?

Well, regardless, it’s happening:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-56844149.amp
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ws...-criminals-exploit-vaccine-demand-11619006403
Apparently they were charging something like $2500 per dose (for what turned out to be anti-wrinkle medicine?) and advertising on social media groups.

I guess it’s easier and cheaper to fill a syringe with saline and charge a few grand for it than to make a fake designer handbag (or substitute a designer label in a cheap handbag?—gotta be honest, I haven’t thought too much about how run a designer handbag scam).

 

[harjunmaa]

Yes.While I agree in general (modulo the placebo effect), the better question is "why"? To cover their tracks? That only works until people start getting sick.

One can take the "why" another level - how does anyone make any money from this? If you're going to commit a crime, shouldn't there be a payoff? In the US, the federal government buys the vaccine directly from the manufacturer. Why would anybody buy counterfeit vaccine when they can get the real stuff for free?

Furthermore, how much is a dose? A few dollars. Why would someone want to go into the business of counterfeiting vaccine when they can get more money for less risk for counterfeiting Gucci handbags?

Supposing you find empty vials, it is easy to refill them with saline and sell shots at your shady clinic at $99 a shot.

 

[harjunmaa]

Supposing you find empty vials, it is easy to refill them with saline and sell shots at your shady clinic at $99 a shot.

Sorry, "you" form is passive, not implying that you have a shady clinic! Difficulties of the English language.

 

[berkeman]

Supposing you find empty vials, it is easy to refill them with saline and sell shots at your shady clinic at $99 a shot.

"you find" is not a likely scenario, unless you are a worker in the "Sharps Waste" chain. So I suppose you need to add in bribery and conspiracy to the scenario.

Vaccine vials are generally disposed of in the same Sharps Containers where the hypodermic needles are tossed, and those Sharps Containers are disposed of per safety protocols. You won't find used vaccine vials in the trash bins at your local hospital, if that's what you are thinking.

https://bwaste.com/resources/the-kn...updates/how-properly-dispose-covid-19-vaccine

Syringes, Needles, and Empty Vaccine Vials

These items should be placed in an FDA-approved sharps container. These containers are made from rigid, puncture-proof plastic and prevent injury and spread of infectious waste. Never discard needles or other sharp objects in the trash or loose into the biohazardous waste box/container.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharps_waste

Disposal of sharps waste

Extreme care must be taken in the management and disposal of sharps waste. The goal in sharps waste management is to safely handle all materials until they can be properly disposed of. The final step in the disposal of sharps waste is to dispose of them in an autoclave. A less common approach is to incinerate them; typically only chemotherapy sharps waste is incinerated. Steps must be taken along the way to minimize the risk of injury from this material, while maximizing the amount of sharps material disposed.[citation needed] Strict hospital protocols and government regulations that instruct health care providers on how to manage sharps waste help ensure that the waste is handled as effectively and safely as possible.

Disposal methods vary by country and locale, but common methods of disposal are either by truck service or, in the United States, by disposal of sharps through the mail. Truck service involves trained personnel collecting sharps waste, and often medical waste, at the point of generation, and hauling it away by truck to a destruction facility. Similarly, the mail-back sharps disposal method allows generators to ship sharps waste to the disposal facility directly through the U.S. mail in specially designed and approved shipping containers. Mail-back sharps disposal allows waste generators to dispose of smaller amounts of sharps more economically than if they were to hire out a truck service. Recent[when?] legislation in France has stated that pharmaceutical companies supplying self injection medications are responsible for the disposal of spent needles. Previously popular needle clippers and caps are no longer acceptable as safety devices, and either sharps box or needle destruction devices are required.[citation needed]

 

[Vanadium 50]

Supposing you find empty vials, it is easy to refill them with saline and sell shots at your shady clinic at $99 a shot.

Did you read what I wrote?

Why sell them at $99 at "your shady clinic" when you can get the real stuff for free?

 

[TeethWhitener]

You could always just buy new empty vials from pretty much anywhere, fill them with saline, slap a fake label on them, and charge for them. Most people don’t know what authentic vaccine vials or labels look like. As pointed out earlier, fake vaccines have already been identified in two countries, and according to this article:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cb...e-covid-19-vaccine-counterfeit-mexico-poland/
People are in fact buying empty discarded vials on the dark web.

OP’s question is legitimate, but I don’t have a really great answer for folks outside the US. In the US, the COVID vaccines are free, but there have been some concerns that, because people are used to being screwed over by private insurers, they are more susceptible to scams that demand payment for a vaccine. HHS, among others, has already put out scam warnings (though admittedly not directly tied with actual distribution of a fake vaccine).

Edit: the HHS alert is for COVID testing scams. The FTC just put something out about vaccine scams: https://www.healthline.com/health-news/ftc-warns-of-covid-19-vaccine-scam-what-to-know

 

[russ_watters]

Why sell them at $99 at "your shady clinic" when you can get the real stuff for free?

So this business is both illegal and unlikely to be profitable? Sign me up for a franchise!

 

[Vanadium 50]

So this business is both illegal and unlikely to be profitable?

Crime doesn't pay.

 

[pinball1970]

Second jab in two hours. Hopefully the real thing.

 

[bhobba]

Why sell them at $99 at "your shady clinic" when you can get the real stuff for free?

Exactly. There is zero incentive. Plus, at least in Aus, we have an audited trail that a clinic, hub etc., gets. I suppose someone could do it, but you are getting into the same territory as Feynman and Flying Saucers:


Thanks
Bill

 

[neilparker62]

Authenticity is certainly a concern if one is living outside the US/UK/ first world generally although to say so will probably risk howls of opprobium. Perhaps Pfizer , J&J , AZ etc should take some steps to ratify 'kosher' distribution outlets in countries they sell to. Or have serial numbers such that one can at least confirm (via website entry of the vial serial no) your vaccine was not from an already used vial. Or perhaps a more sophisticated cellphone scanning system so that you are given paperwork which you can scan and verify direct with (say) Pfizer that your vial was a genuine Pfizer product. Some governments might object to citizens being suspicious of vaccine authenticity but at the same time scanning should not worry them if they have nothing to hide.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There are serial numbers today. They appear to be by the batch, not the individual dose. Look at your receipt. If I were paranoid, I could check to see if this batch went to the place I got vaccinated. But I ask again - how does someone make money off a counterfeit if the real stuff is free?

"We lose a little on every transaction, but we make it up in volume."

Oh, and I checked to see how much the vaccinatrix (is that a word?) billed my insurance company. $2.59 per dose.

 

[TeethWhitener]

But I ask again - how does someone make money off a counterfeit if the real stuff is free?

Have you really never been promised something for free only to find out later that it wasn’t? Is it really so inconceivable that a government or healthcare provider would be untrustworthy enough to engage in such a practice? If the government (or whoever) had previously lost your trust, would you really find it much of a stretch to believe that somehow they’ll eventually charge you for this vaccine that they claim is free?

 

[russ_watters]

Have you really never been promised something for free only to find out later that it wasn’t? Is it really so inconceivable that a government or healthcare provider would be untrustworthy enough to engage in such a practice? If the government (or whoever) had previously lost your trust, would you really find it much of a stretch to believe that somehow they’ll eventually charge you for this vaccine that they claim is free?

I'm having trouble engaging my imagination sufficiently to understand what you are getting at, except for that last bit; No, the vaccine is bought and paid for, and that's it. "The government or whoever" can't go back and charge us more for it any more than a used car dealer can jack up the price of a car a week/month after you bought it.

So, yes, it is inconceivable, at least to me. Unless you can point to a past occurrence or describe better what you are imagining.

 

[russ_watters]

But I ask again - how does someone make money off a counterfeit if the real stuff is free?

In developed nations, no. And while we don't know until we know, we can speculate what might happen in 3rd world countries. I suspect there are going to be significant problems, with hijackings, substitutions, magically multiplying supplies, etc. The UN, WHO, Red Cross, etc should probably be setting up their own clinics to combat that. Would you trust a dose of Pfizer vaccine administered to you by the government of Zimbabwe? Or CZS Pharmacy in Zimbabwe?

 

[TeethWhitener]

Unless you can point to a past occurrence or describe better what you are imagining.

Well, I’ve supplied at least three links to news stories indicating that fraudulent vaccine scams are already happening. I’m not sure what else you want.

Note that the OP didn’t ask whether these practices were happening, or how one would make such an endeavor profitable. (Those questions were the result of several not-OPs hijacking the thread and the resulting pile-on.) The OP asked how one knows they’re not getting a fake vaccine. In the US, it’s pretty easy: the vaccines are free and generally regulated to only be available through licensed pharmacies, all of which can be checked readily. But in general, given the lack of trust in the medical and governmental infrastructure in some places, this is not a trivial problem to solve. How do you instill enough trust in the literally billions of people in Asia and Africa who, often justifiably, do not trust anything their government says? How do you even get the message to them that vaccines are free and forthcoming if they receive information about the wider world only sporadically at best? How do you get that info to them and get them to trust you before scammers get to them with their snake oil?

 

[russ_watters]

Well, I’ve supplied at least three links to news stories indicating that fraudulent vaccine scams are already happening. I’m not sure what else you want.

Actually, there was a new claim you made, that I was questioning: you suggested it would be possible for the government and insurance companies to re-charge us for the vaccine we already bought and used.

To answer the quoted claim directly: No, I've never received(not "promised" -- I've/we've already received the vaccine) something that was free and then been charged for it.

This is an entirely different issue from fake vaccines/vaccine scams.

 

[Ygggdrasil]

Actually, there was a new claim you made, that I was questioning: you suggested it would be possible for the government and insurance companies to re-charge us for the vaccine we already bought and used.

To answer the quoted claim directly: No, I've never received(not "promised" -- I've/we've already received the vaccine) something that was free and then been charged for it.

This is an entirely different issue from fake vaccines/vaccine scams.

It's fairly common for patients at hospitals to be promised that procedures would be covered by insurance only to be told after the fact that they owe much more than previously told because "out-of-network" doctors were used in the procedure. Some studies estimate that as many as one in five ER visits are subjected to surprise medical bills, and they affect millions of Americans per year. (note this practice was recently made illegal by congress, which will take effect in 2022).

 

[russ_watters]

It's fairly common for patients at hospitals to be promised that procedures would be covered by insurance only to be told after the fact that they owe much more than previously told because "out-of-network" doctors were used in the procedure.

Totally understand that, but that's not the same situation. V50 provided the actual/final cost to him(his insurance company) that the insurance company actually paid/charged for the vaccine. What is being suggested (on the insurance company side) is akin to retracting that EOB and issuing a new one.

 

[russ_watters]

Oh, and I checked to see how much the vaccinatrix (is that a word?) billed my insurance company. $2.59 per dose.

I did not receive an EOB for my vaccines. The CDC seems to contradict it self on who pays:

The federal government is providing the vaccine free of charge to all people living in the United States, regardless of their immigration or health insurance status...

COVID-19 vaccination providers can:

• Seek appropriate reimbursement from the recipient’s plan or program (e.g., private health insurance, Medicare, Medicaid) for a vaccine administration fee

I have a major insurance provider and provided that information to the vaccinatrix prior to getting the vaccine.
Regardless, if the federal government is paying, why is your insurance company being charged? Do they then back-charge the federal government? If it is the insurance company paying, then it is being paid for by your premiums as opposed to your taxes (wonder which costs you more?).

Also, $2.59 seems unlikely. It would be hard to even pay the salaries of the stickers at that rate.

 

[Vanadium 50]

would you really find it much of a stretch to believe that somehow they’ll eventually charge you for this vaccine that they claim is free?

If they try, what are they going to do? Repossess my white blood cells?

But in any event, you are describing an entirelu different kind of scam. If someone is trying to get me to pay for something that has already been paid for, why do they also need to make the vaccine worthless?

 

[TeethWhitener]

Alright. You win. I’m too tired to try to convince you that scams happen and that people fall for them.

To the OP, I think the question you actually asked is a legitimate one. I’m sorry I don’t have a great answer for it, but you might want to direct your question toward your country’s health ministry, if it can be trusted, or potentially look for information from the companies producing the vaccines about how they maintain the integrity of their distribution. Best of luck.

 

[Vanadium 50]

the government of Zimbabwe

No such thing.

Zimbabwe has vaccinated 10,000 people. Zimbabwe being Zimbabwe, these are probably 10,000 people you don't want to mess with.

But suppose once they get going, people still want to push fake vaccine. You have exactly the same problem: the government has alraedy paid for it, and you're competing with "free". You also have the additional problem that you will have stolen Zimbabwe dollars, which are worthless.

If it is the insurance company paying, then it is being paid for by your premiums as opposed to your taxes (wonder which costs you more?)

The vaccine is free. The drugstore is allowed to charge my health insurance (actually, my pharmaceutical insurance) for the shot itself. If some uninsured comes in, it's still free to them. I don't know who, if anyone, they charge.

Yes, it looks low to me as well. It works out to $31/hour, assuming 5 minutes per dose. That seems to be about their throughput. I suspect that this is a negotiated rate - "You want $2.59 or do you want nothing?" But in any event, that's what it says. Also, the drugstore can throttle the number of doses they administer to ensure they don't need to bring on extra staff, so the $31 is close to pure profit.