Baltimore riots after Freddie Gray funeral

[Greg Bernhardt]

The lack of strong families.

So the question becomes, how do we rebuild the black family.

 

[nsaspook]

So the question becomes, how do we rebuild the black family.

The way capitalism always works, make strong black (and poor) families profitable vs broken homes in the long run but healing the culture is hard once the chain is broken. I don't know the answer for the country as a whole, I only know how to make my family work.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

The way capitalism always works, make strong black (and poor) families profitable vs broken homes in the long run but healing the culture is hard once the chain is broken. I don't know the answer for the country as a whole, I only know how to make my family work.

Other than for the prison industry, how are broken homes profitable?

 

[Vanadium 50]

"Cause" is a tough word, but there are certain obvious differences:

• Leadership: Al Sharpton is no Martin Luther King
  
• The Civil War has passed from direct memory: in the 60's there were people who knew people who fought. Today there are not.
  
• The degree of direct discrimination is way down, but the degree of communication of those events is way up: Michael Brown is no Emmett Till
• In the 60's education was seen by the majority as a fundamental civil right, and not "acting white":
  
• There were two civil rights movements in the 60's - the "inclusive one" (MLK is an example), and an "exclusive one" (Malcolm X is an example). Today the leadership is entirely in the latter one - e.g. Jesse Jackson and "Hymietown".
• The number of African-American female household heads has soared from 18% in 1950 to 68% today. The fraction of children born out of wedlock is 75% nationally (and 90% in some places), but was 14% in the 1940's.
  
• The Democratic Party has grown much more dependent on the African-American vote. At the same time, as poor African-Americans enter the middle class, their voting shifts more Republican. This politicizes the issue, and it does so in a very peculiar way, since the parties' short- and long- term goals are odds with each other.
• The US has had a half-century experience with the Great Society, and we can see some things - e.g. high-rise public housing - that clearly don't work. On the other hand, some things are so ingrained in the culture (integration of public facilities) that we can't imagine things being any other way. Things that were thought to be temporary, such as the "special provisions" of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 (these apply to most of the former Confederacy and a few other places) were argued should be permanent.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Other than for the prison industry, how are broken homes profitable?

I think his argument was to reduce the number of broken homes.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

The US has had a half-century experience with the Great Society, and we can see some things - e.g. high-rise public housing - that clearly don't work.

I need to read up on this topic. I've heard it referenced a lot, but don't know anything about it. Sounds very interesting.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I think his argument was to reduce the number of broken homes.

Right and I thought his angle was that there are forces that profit from a broken home. No?

 

[Borg]

Right and I thought his angle was that there are forces that profit from a broken home. No?

Unfortunately, I think that one could write entire books on this.

 

[nsaspook]

Right and I thought his angle was that there are forces that profit from a broken home. No?

Not, really. I don't think there is a cabal of people putting 'black people down' for money but in general if there is money to be made from improving black family's instead on putting men in jail someone will think about making that money in the most efficient and profitable way possible.

 

[HuskyNamedNala]

Not, really. I don't think there is a cabal of people putting 'black people down' for money but in general if there is money to be made from improving black family's instead on putting men in jail someone will think about making that money in the most efficient and profitable way possible.

To be more general, there is quite a bit of profitability from the poor. Prisons are a good example and so are predatory student loans/for profit colleges. I would argue that there are forces trying to keep people down.

 

[nsaspook]

To be more general, there is quite a bit of profitability from the poor. Prisons are a good example and so are predatory student loans/for profit colleges. I would argue that there are forces trying to keep people down.

Even if there was (and I don't believe it) if more profit could be made from 'pulling people up' they would be on it like 'white on rice'.

 

[HuskyNamedNala]

More profit could be created, I agree, but that would entail getting the people currently profiting out of power. Unfortunately, some believe they are "too big to fail".

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Freddie Gray death ruled homicide; officers charged
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/01/us/freddie-gray-baltimore-death/index.html

The police union said none of the officers was responsible for Gray's death. How can they make that statement? How can they know?

 

[Tobias Funke]

I'm not saying anything is gone but compared to then, today is a heaven. There is a culture of American black violence in this country that's rotten to the core and completely disconnected from education, housing, employment discrimination. That culture needs to change but I believe some are using that as leverage to remain in power in the black community.

Today may be a heaven on average compared to the 60s, but it doesn't seem all that much better for those in the worst inner-city slums. In any case, the 1960s themselves were a heaven compared to the 1850s or the 1910s---so what? There were still issues to protest, as there are now.

What's the cause of this culture of violence that's supposedly disconnected from overall society? Why did black family dynamics change? You said something about "needed measures" above but I'm not sure what you mean (welfare?).

Anyway, I agree with Borq that one could, and many do, write whole books about this. I think Michelle Alexander does quite a good job describing "the new Jim Crow" (in fact, much of the criticism of her book comes from being offended by that phrase and not the actual content), and she doesn't shy away from "black on black violence" or the fact that black communities themselves often support tough-on-crime policies. I even read James Forman Jr's Racial Critiques of Mass Incarceration: Beyond the New Jim Crow, which is sometimes offered as a rebuttal to Alexander but actually largely agrees with her and praises her as the best of the "new Jim Crow" writers.

 

[nsaspook]

...
Anyway, I agree with Borq that one could, and many do, write whole books about this. I think Michelle Alexander does quite a good job describing "the new Jim Crow" (in fact, much of the criticism of her book comes from being offended by that phrase and not the actual content), and she doesn't shy away from "black on black violence" or the fact that black communities themselves often support tough-on-crime policies. I even read James Forman Jr's Racial Critiques of Mass Incarceration: Beyond the New Jim Crow, which is sometimes offered as a rebuttal to Alexander but actually largely agrees with her and praises her as the best of the "new Jim Crow" writers.

Yes, I'll say again there is plenty to protest about but nothing to riot about. As for welfare I'll let someone who created the system talk about it. It didn't create the problem only made it worse at times with incentives for men to just pay money to mothers of children instead of being fathers to children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action
http://www.c-span.org/video/?95001-1/welfare-reform-bill

There is a conspiracy of sorts, not of "a stunningly comprehensive and well-disguised system of racialized social control that functions in a manner strikingly similar to Jim Crow." run by black people in Baltimore and now the President of the United States but of a street level war on black violence that leads cops to abuse power when they don't care, thugs that don't care to abuse good citizens and the flight of anyone who can afford to move to leave because they don't care to live in a war zone. Keeping the 'lid on' the zone, stopping the spread of this cancer by doing what has to be done on the streets with a increasingly militarized police force is the logical result of a culture of violence begetting more violence with modern media feeding off the blood. Mass Incarceration was the solution chosen by the people over street battles.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

This was an interesting video

 

[nsaspook]

I'll share a video about how to stay out of prison and out of trouble with the cops. People are laughing because it's true.

NSFW language:

 

[Tobias Funke]

There is a conspiracy of sorts, not of "a stunningly comprehensive and well-disguised system of racialized social control that functions in a manner strikingly similar to Jim Crow." run by black people in Baltimore and now the President of the United States but of a street level war on black violence that leads cops to abuse power when they don't care, thugs that don't care to abuse good citizens and the flight of anyone who can afford to move to leave because they don't care to live in a war zone. Keeping the 'lid on' the zone, stopping the spread of this cancer by doing what has to be done on the streets with a increasingly militarized police force is the logical result of a culture of violence begetting more violence with modern media feeding off the blood. Mass Incarceration was the solution chosen by the people over street battles.

I would actually like an answer as to the cause of this black violence. If it's not a societal but a cultural problem, then what is there to protest about? I can't even pin down your thoughts on this. Cops who don't care abuse their power but a simple youtube video can stop black people from being killed by cops? Make up your mind.

 

[nsaspook]

I would actually like an answer as to the cause of this black violence. If it's not a societal but a cultural problem, then what is there to protest about? I can't even pin down your thoughts on this. Cops who don't care abuse their power but a simple youtube video can stop black people from being killed by cops? Make up your mind.

I've given my reasons on the pathology of black violence. No excuses for police abuse that should be protested about but a large percentage (some are innocents) of the people injured or killed in these abuses were not nice people just walking down the street. Their interaction was started by criminal activity.

 

[Czcibor]

So the question becomes, how do we rebuild the black family.

When you asked this question, in order to avoid an ideological minefield of racial relation in the USA, I started to think about examples that I know from Europe. How to change attitudes within society for more desirable ones?

Exhibit 1 - Roma (Gypsies) - in my regions there were attempts to integrate them from times of at least Austro-Hungarian monarchy. Over 100 years later, after monarchy, democracy, communism, and democracy back we still try to do it, this time requesting EU money.
Exhibit 2 - East Germany - Germans, which I consider as example of good organization, tried to rebuild East Germany after communist rule. With buildings it was easy, with people not. Its not only poorer, but if one for example look at election map 25 years after communism collapse there is still much higher support there for neo-Nazi.
Exhibit 3 - South Italy - poor, organized crime, and north Italy has nowadays separatist parties.

Honestly? I'm not specially optimist about your chances. Especially in short run.

 

[Tobias Funke]

I've given my reasons on the pathology of black violence. No excuses for police abuse that should be protested about but a large percentage (some are innocents) of the people injured or killed in these abuses were not nice people just walking down the street. Their interaction was started by criminal activity.

You've brought up welfare leading to broken families (you also said the families were unbreakable!?) and denied that there is any other reason, or at least dismissed any other one offered. I find that highly unlikely. And once again, you admit that there are people killed in police abuses but all you seem focused on is shifting the blame away from the police. Seems very one-sided to me.

 

[nsaspook]

You've brought up welfare leading to broken families (you also said the families were unbreakable!?) and denied that there is any other reason, or at least dismissed any other one offered. I find that highly unlikely. And once again, you admit that there are people killed in police abuses but all you seem focused on is shifting the blame away from the police. Seems very one-sided to me.

Our family was unbreakable because we were a complete family.

That's your take on it but I actually lived and went to 'Negro' grade school in segregation, in a southern town with 'whites only', been called the 'N' word to my face in class after segregation at the 'white' school, marched in Dallas during the civil rights movement, cried when MLK died, joined the military to escape Texas (and haven't been back for more than 30 days since), go to school on the VN era GI bill, work and raise a family of 4 kids. I've had plenty of time to think over how we got here and why while hearing every excuse for bad behavior. It only seems one-sided if you look at it in 2D, I've been there in 3D.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

I live about 45 minutes west of downtown Baltimore. I have extended family who live in the city. The riots are very disturbing to me.

First, of those you see in the news, nearly everyone has an interest or a bias. I don't put much credence in what most of them say. In fact, aside of the Coroner's Report there are very few accounts worth believing. I will be interested to see what comes out in court.

Second, if you think these riots have anything to do with Freddie Gray, I would like to sell you the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. The Brooklyn Bridge has already been spoken for. There seems to be a contingent of people who follow peaceful but sizable political movements and use it as a context for uncivil behavior. We saw this with Occupy Wall Street, with Ferguson, and now with Baltimore. I'm not sure I understand what the movement in Ferguson was all about, but OWS and Baltimore started with legitimate concerns.

Like most, I am bothered about what happened to Mr. Gray. I don't care what his rap sheet looked like. I care that he was arrested for reasons that are not clear, that he was severely injured, and then that the police did so little to check and care for his condition. If there was wrong doing, I want it prosecuted. I say this not as any particular activist, but as a right-of-center Republican voter. I expect the police to act with the utmost professionalism. We give them great latitude to enforce the laws and in return I expect them to adhere to their oath to the Constitution.

Third, I am appalled by allegations that the mayor decided to let the rioting crowd continue while telling police to stand down. If this is true, Mayor Blake's career is finished. On the other hand, the police did do some things right. Keeping everyone inside Camden Yards baseball stadium while police took control of the situation was a wise move. Imagine the confrontation if 15000 people, trying to get away, fought with 1500 intent on mayhem. Things could have been very much worse than they turned out to be.

On a larger societal level, we have the slums of West Baltimore. Baltimore has been the recipient of incredible amounts of social welfare money over the years, and yet it only seems to perpetuate poverty. We keep feeding into this system and it continues to fail us. I'd happily spend all that money and more, if I thought it was helping people to get out of that situation, but I don't think that's the case.

Instead we have neighborhoods of broken families, generations of absent, imprisoned fathers, and mothers who are too busy or distracted to raise their children. Honestly, raising a child on your own is extremely difficult. It can be done, but it takes an extraordinary person and a helpful community. You won't find a whole lot of that going on in West Baltimore.

And so we ponder what just happened. This is more than just a rant about Freddie Gray's death. There is something much deeper going on here. Something that no amount of policing can fix. It is the poverty of the mind. On forums like this we often see people mock sky-God religions. However, this is a straw man argument. While the confusion between religion and science is commonplace among the ignorant, if you talk to religious authorities you will find that, aside of fundamentalists, most do not see any such contradiction.

Instead they seek to lead and teach people morality. This is something the State can not do. The reason so many fathers are absent is because they don't feel any sense of obligation or moral duty. The reason why crime is so commonplace is because without morality the equation becomes, "what can you get away with?" Unless one is of a religious institution, it is considered to be very impolite to teach such morality. But that's where things have to start. It is time to try some heavy duty evangelism.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Our family was unbreakable because we were a complete family.

That's your take on it but I actually lived and went to 'Negro' grade school in segregation, in a southern town with 'whites only', been called the 'N' word to my face in class after segregation at the 'white' school, marched in Dallas during the civil rights movement, cried when MLK died, joined the military to escape Texas (and haven't been back for more than 30 days since), go to school on the VN era GI bill, work and raise a family of 4 kids. I've had plenty of time to think over how we got here and why. It only seems one-sided if you look at it in 2D, I've been there in 3D.

That's great (like, genuinely and not sarcastically), but it doesn't really address my post. So there are reasons to protest, and some people riot and that's bad. That's not exactly groundbreaking stuff. Was that not also the case in the 60s? What were those riots caused by? A culture of violence in the black community? Broken black families? If it was just the statistically unavoidable presence of people prone to do that, just as there would be in a white crowd, why isn't that simply the case now instead of some deep moral failure on the part of the black community?

edit: Also, I'm not discounting your own experiences being there in 3D. I just know that there are plenty of other people who have been there in 3D who come to very different conclusions, or at least acknowledge your point but recognize many other factors.

 

[Astronuc]

Rage to relief in Baltimore as 6 officers charged in death
http://news.yahoo.com/scant-details-gray-death-baltimore-protests-continue-070825135.html

 

[nsaspook]

edit: Also, I'm not discounting your own experiences being there in 3D. I just know that there are plenty of other people who have been there in 3D who come to very different conclusions, or at least acknowledge your point but recognize many other factors.

I know there are many other factors and different conclusions but just like in engineering you need to find the root cause to really fix the problem instead of adding interlocks like more money, more jails and more police to stop it when it goes crazy. We knew in the 60's this was going to happen so you're right, it's not exactly groundbreaking but it has to be said.

 

[mheslep]

If this is true, Mayor Blake's career is finished.

Plenty of examples where rioting has been allowed to continue by mayors with little after effect on their careers. Sharon Pratt Dixon in DC, OWS mayors, off the top of my head.

The District’s mayor, Sharon Pratt Dixon, told the police to hold back from making arrests for looting because she feared it would antagonize the crowd and lead to more violence

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Plenty of examples where rioting has been allowed to continue by mayors with little after effect on their careers. Sharon Pratt Dixon in DC, OWS mayors, off the top of my head.

We'll see how this pans out. Baltimore, unlike DC, is still struggling to bring in middle class people. These riots have not helped the cause. The city doesn't have nearly as much wealth to spare.

 

[Astronuc]

Thousands expected in Baltimore rallies, now celebratory
http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-expected-baltimore-rallies-now-celebratory-070325145.html

The thousands of marchers who are expected to hit the streets this weekend will now do so to celebrate the decision by State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby to charge the officers with felonies ranging from assault to murder, and encourage continued peaceful demonstrations.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the country - Clashes erupt in U.S. West Coast cities during May Day marches
http://news.yahoo.com/may-day-march-seattle-turns-violent-three-police-034406128.html

And rioting is supposed to help how?

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Thousands expected in Baltimore rallies, now celebratory
http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-expected-baltimore-rallies-now-celebratory-070325145.html

This bothers me. They're acting as if the police have already been convicted. Professor Alan Dershowitz made an interesting point that the prosecutor's charges are not just over-the-top, but perhaps even unfounded in any reality. What will those crowds do when the six officers are acquitted of these ridiculous, over-the-top charges? And then, because of double-jeopardy they can't be charged for the same crime?

I can see charging them with neglect, possibly even a manslaughter charge here or there, but I don't see how any of this amounts to a murder charge.

I doubt we've seen the last of the demonstrations or even the riots.

 

[leroyjenkens]

This bothers me. They're acting as if the police have already been convicted. Professor Alan Dershowitz made an interesting point that the prosecutor's charges are not just over-the-top, but perhaps even unfounded in any reality. What will those crowds do when the six officers are acquitted of these ridiculous, over-the-top charges? And then, because of double-jeopardy they can't be charged for the same crime?

I can see charging them with neglect, possibly even a manslaughter charge here or there, but I don't see how any of this amounts to a murder charge.

I doubt we've seen the last of the demonstrations or even the riots.

Yeah, you have to be smart when charging somebody with a crime. At best, I think you could get them for negligent homicide.
The problem is people think when cops encounter somebody and that person ends up dead, that means the cop went out that day thinking "I think I'm going to murder a man today." So in their minds, we have these evil cops on the street, and the state is protecting them. So charging them with murder is exactly what they think is going on; cops are murderous psychopaths and we finally caught them. And some may not know the difference between "charged" and "convicted."
I don't think much will happen if the trial drags on like the Zimmerman trial did. Give people time to cool off and they'll stop caring. What happened when Zimmerman was acquitted? Nothing, from what I remember.

 

[Czcibor]

This bothers me. They're acting as if the police have already been convicted. Professor Alan Dershowitz made an interesting point that the prosecutor's charges are not just over-the-top, but perhaps even unfounded in any reality. What will those crowds do when the six officers are acquitted of these ridiculous, over-the-top charges? And then, because of double-jeopardy they can't be charged for the same crime?

I can see charging them with neglect, possibly even a manslaughter charge here or there, but I don't see how any of this amounts to a murder charge.

I doubt we've seen the last of the demonstrations or even the riots.

Of course not. If you want to make a riot, then there would always be a proper excuse, like in Italy:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/milan-may-...pared-mafia-says-italian-rapper-fedez-1499412

(They did not have police brutality, so had to protest against Expo)

 

[Tobias Funke]

The problem is people think when cops encounter somebody and that person ends up dead, that means the cop went out that day thinking "I think I'm going to murder a man today." So in their minds, we have these evil cops on the street, and the state is protecting them. So charging them with murder is exactly what they think is going on; cops are murderous psychopaths and we finally caught them. And some may not know the difference between "charged" and "convicted."

Yes, that is what those strawmen think.

 

[nsaspook]

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the country - Clashes erupt in U.S. West Coast cities during May Day marches
http://news.yahoo.com/may-day-march-seattle-turns-violent-three-police-034406128.html

And rioting is supposed to help how?

We had a few locally in Portland. Most of the violence was started by the anarchist cult, a special breed of 'power of destruction' crazy that lives here.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Yes, that is what those strawmen think.

I've talked to those strawmen.