Can Long-Term Marriage Retain Its Spark?

[Lisa!]

That is so wonderful to hear. Great advice too!

My mom was the opposite, she told me "a man won't buy the cow if he can get the milk for free". Gee, thanks for comparing me to a cow mom.

You were the only daughter of her who listened to her advice!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

See, that's where I disagree, a good relationship doesn't require hard work, bad relationships require hardwork. It's when the person isn't right for you that you have to make a lot of compromises and concessions, etc...

I think the idea of marriage needing to be a difficult struggle comes from outdated ideas of marriage being some kind of sacred mistake that one needs to remain stuck in, no matter what.

I don't really agree with that one entirely. We have gone through very difficult periods that required a great deal of hard work, and we came out of it even closer. And beyond that, many of the most difficult times resulted from medical issues. It turns out that my allergies and blood sugar problems can make me very difficult; and I'm not just talking about a bad mood. My allergies cause some pretty serious anger and depression. When I would get like that, before we understood the problem, it was all that I could do to not bite her head off for existing. On the flip side, Tsu has struggled with thyroid problems that can make her impossible to live with at times. But how could I leave her for being sick? It seemed to me that we had made a commitment for better or worse, and "worse" is guaranteed to come along now and then. And of course she did eventually get better, but it took years. In the end, we have found that many of our most difficult problems were due to external issues. What was not always easy was to understand that this was the problem; not what we thought was the problem and the reason for the difficulties. The inclination is to respond to the anger and not to recognize the cause of the problem. Were we not both committed, we most likely would have just given up, and for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Evo]

I don't really agree with that one entirely. We have gone through very difficult periods that required a great deal of hard work, and we came out of it even closer. And beyond that, many of the most difficult times resulted from medical issues. It turns out that my allergies and blood sugar problems can make me very difficult; and I'm not just talking about a bad mood. My allergies cause some pretty serious anger and depression. When I would get like that, before we understood the problem, it was all that I could do to not bite her head off for existing. On the flip side, Tsu has struggled with thyroid problems that can make her impossible to live with at times. But how could I leave her for being sick? It seemed to me that we had made a commitment for better or worse, and "worse" is guaranteed to come along now and then. And of course she did eventually get better, but it took years. In the end, we have found that many of our most difficult problems were due to external issues. What was not always easy was to understand that this was the problem; not what we thought was the problem and the reason for the difficulties. The inclination is to respond to the anger and not to recognize the cause of the problem. Were we not both committed, we most likely would have just given up, and for all the wrong reasons.

Problems caused by stress from things like illness aren't the same as basic incompatibilty though, at least not in my book. I can deal with someone that's ill or grouchy. My first boyfriend was handicapped from a motorcycle accident, and he'd become very bitter at times, mostly due to the constant pain he was in and the fact that his condition was continually deteriorating.

 

[Lisa!]

Oh I just see this post:

You should explain this to my wife, Lisa!, who decided we were married without even having spent a minute in the same hemisphere of the globe together. I wasn't even invited to the wedding.

Well that expalins why we are still happily married ,sweetheart!

 

[zoobyshoe]

Oh I just see this post:




Well that expalins why we are still happily married ,sweetheart!

"I asked my baby if there'd be some way.
She said she'd save her love for a rainy day.
I look in the sky but I look in vain:
Heavy cloud but
No rain."

-Sting

 

[Monique]

Problems caused by stress from things like illness aren't the same as basic incompatibilty though, at least not in my book. I can deal with someone that's ill or grouchy. My first boyfriend was handicapped from a motorcycle accident, and he'd become very bitter at times, mostly due to the constant pain he was in and the fact that his condition was continually deteriorating.

I agree, my boyfriend also struggles with allergies (I recognize Ivan's case) and sometimes has been impossible to deal with. He has always apologized in retrospect (the same day) so now I recognize when his reaction comes from a stress-instinct. I don't think you need to be commited, as long as you communicate what drives your emotions.

 

[Astronuc]

a good relationship doesn't require hard work, bad relationships require hardwork. It's when the person isn't right for you that you have to make a lot of compromises and concessions, etc...

A marriage, even a good marriage, takes effort and sometimes hard work, but it should not be a battle. Perhaps it is the meaning of 'hard' work we should clarify. If one has to make 'a lot of compromises and concessions', that is a recipe for disaster. One should not change oneself to suit the other's fancy, and the other should not expect and certainly should not demand one change. If that is the case, something is very wrong. This is certainly a matter to be explored BEFORE committing to a marriage.

I think the idea of marriage needing to be a difficult struggle comes from outdated ideas of marriage being some kind of sacred mistake that one needs to remain stuck in, no matter what. Back in the old days, most women either had to be married or they were considered as a burden to their family, they really didn't have much choice. Now women in most societies can support themselves and that's changed how marriage is viewed.

Marriage should NOT be a struggle. If it is, something is very wrong.

Yes - women are more independent - and from what I see, they are more anxious, especially when looking for a compatible mate or partner.

My parents weren't compatible, but they refused to get divorced, so they solved the problem by living in two separate homes. My mom and us kids lived at the main house and my dad stayed at the lake house.

I very sorry to hear that. That must have been rough on the family.

Marriage, like life, is not always smooth sailing. It's great to share the good times, but when things get stormy, it's nice to have a reliable partner at one's side until the storm subsides.

A husband and wife should be best friends.

 

[Astronuc]

If you and your spouse turn out to not have the same goals, parenting style, beliefs, traits, etc... then you realistically aren't a good match. Unfortunately a lot of these things aren't discovered until after you are married.

It is important for couples to discuss goals, parenting style, beliefs, traits, history, finance, intimacy, . . . . BEFORE marriage, and that is the part of the dating process. On the other hand, dating seems for many to be a vehicle for entertainment.

In my case, in addition to having a pleasant social engagement, I used dating to get to know better the women I dated, with the possibility that I might must find one compatiable enough to marry. At some point the dating became courting. For one reason or other, it didn't work out with a number of women before I met the one I married, and in those cases I simply remained a friend with those other women. In most cases, I knew we were incompatible because we didn't share various characteristics, including those Evo listed. Another major reason was that I was not settled myself. Even into my early 20's I struggled with where I fit in the world, and for a while I wasn't sure. I wasn't until I settled down academically and saw a degree and career on the horizon that I felt settled.

If you have to "work" at trying not to argue, if you feel you are having to give things up and are forced to make concessions in order to get along, it's a bad relationship that you are just applying bandages to.

One should NOT have to work at trying not to argue. It is a bad relationship.

I don't think people should be told that a "good" relationship requires unhappiness and sacrifice, that's not true.

Correct. Unhappiness and continued sacrifice/concession are indications of a failed relationship.

If one partner is always giving (and in the extreme sacrificing) and the other partner is simply taking, then the relationship has failed with respect to mutuality and reciprocity, and that marriage is a failure.

Marriage is about mutual support, each partner giving as well as receiving from the other. Both persons, as any human being, have needs and wants, goals and aspriations. Ideally, with mutual support, both partners share in fulfilling those needs, wants, goals and aspriations.

 

[Astronuc]

Cohabitation before marriage is a good idea. The time-frame should be long enough for the couple to go through some ups and downs before making a commitment to wed. If the death of a close friend or relative or the loss of a job or a forced move (to get a new job, for instance) or some other stressful events just bring you closer together (out of love and mutual support, not out of some one-sided clingy dependence), then the odds are good that you are made for one another.

I don't know if co-habitation really works. Sometimes, the couple cohabits and puts off the courting process.

My parents were engaged for 7 years! In that time, they learned about each other, and met each other's families. My father was in university and they didn't have accommodations for married students. Also, he didn't have a steady job during his academic program, so he couldn't afford to support a family, let alone a wife. My dad didn't have enough money to buy a nice suit in which to get married, so my mom's father bought my dad a suit! On the other hand, he used to find summer jobs near my mom so he could be close by.

My parents have been married for nearly 51 years, and they have a great relationship, and they are looking forward to as much of a future as possible together. They are each other's best friend.

 

[Moonbear]

I'm going through a divorce right now, so I can definitely say marriage requires two equal partners who are both willing to make necessary adjustments and have the maturity to actually try to work at making a marriage work. Aside from being a parent, marriage is the most difficult job a person can ever have. It requires constant compromise.

This is where I agree with Evo. If you constantly need to compromise, and it's something you view as a difficult job, then it's not a good marriage. I think too many people have fallen for this notion that marriage is always a struggle and involves a lot of compromise, and that's why we have such high divorce rates. If someone is right for you, those things should come naturally. It doesn't mean you won't make compromises for each other, it just won't feel like you're making compromises or that you need to compromise. You shouldn't have to give up being yourself to be with someone else. You should enjoy each other for who you are.

Just as another point of clarification, I do think it's normal for couples to argue...you're not identical people with identical thoughts, and it's normal to have disagreements. Where it becomes a problem is when it changes from disagreements or arguments to fighting and bickering and nagging.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How do you all feel about personality types? By some accounts [including our own] we are a somewhat unique pair.

I had a great Aunt who had never met Tsu or me, but after spending about an hour with us, she asked, "how in the hell have you managed to stay married?!" At which time Tsu and I both lost it. It wasn't that we had done anything except have a good time, but my aunt immediately noticed that we are both such strong personalities that she didn't see how we could live in the same house. Of course the reason that we started laughing was that we knew this was an issue long ago, but it was funny to hear it from someone else in such bold terms.

Do most couples tend to have a clearly dominant personality. I know my parents did. Usually mom ruled the roost. Once in a great while dad would intervene, but only on the rarest of occasions.

 

[Moonbear]

Do most couples tend to have a clearly dominant personality. I know my parents did. Usually mom ruled the roost. Once in a great while dad would intervene, but only on the rarest of occasions.

Actually, in most relationships I've been in, that's been a major part of the downfall. If I don't have a partner who is also a very strong personality, I end up over-dominating the relationship, and neither of us ends up happy with that (and, as strange as it may sound, usually I'm the one least happy about it). In the best relationship I was ever in, we both had very strong personalities. At first, it did make for a lot of head-butting, but that's also why I mentioned a difference between arguments and fighting. We didn't fight, we didn't get pissed off at each other (well, not for long anyway), we just aired our differences and were strong enough to take it, then moved along. Most such arguments would end with one of us laughing and saying something like, "That's why I love you."

 

[Astronuc]

Do most couples tend to have a clearly dominant personality. I know my parents did. Usually mom ruled the roost. Once in a great while dad would intervene, but only on the rarest of occasions.

My son thinks I'm too deferential too my wife. Well - I just know my place.

Actually, I just don't have strong views on most domestic issues, so there really are two many conflicts.

I had a great Aunt who had never met Tsu or me, but after spending about an hour with us, she asked, "how in the hell have you managed to stay married?!"

Perhaps. My wife has a strong personality in some ways, and I have a strong personality and attitude (but no ego), but we work it out.

I did have to get used to my wife's method of discussion, which was more like arguing, but I learned. I don't particularly care for raised voices, and that is what she grew up with.

In the best relationship I was ever in, we both had very strong personalities.

That was a factor I was looking for in a wife, someone with strong personality who could balance mine. I need someone who would talk to me, tell me what was on her mind, and work with me.

 

[Evo]

Actually, in most relationships I've been in, that's been a major part of the downfall. If I don't have a partner who is also a very strong personality, I end up over-dominating the relationship, and neither of us ends up happy with that (and, as strange as it may sound, usually I'm the one least happy about it). In the best relationship I was ever in, we both had very strong personalities. At first, it did make for a lot of head-butting, but that's also why I mentioned a difference between arguments and fighting. We didn't fight, we didn't get pissed off at each other (well, not for long anyway), we just aired our differences and were strong enough to take it, then moved along. Most such arguments would end with one of us laughing and saying something like, "That's why I love you."

Now, that's what I would consider a healthy relationship. You acknowledge and appreciate differences.

It's when the differences are considered problems that need to be worked on with one or both parties conceeding to the other to keep the other placated. Where it becomes a job to remember to keep giving in and giving up what you want and need to keep some semblance of peace. It's unhealthy.

 

[turbo]

My son thinks I'm too deferential too my wife. Well - I just know my place.

Actually, I just don't have strong views on most domestic issues, so there really are two many conflicts.


Perhaps. My wife has a strong personality in some ways, and I have a strong personality and attitude (but no ego), but we work it out.

I did have to get used to my wife's method of discussion, which was more like arguing, but I learned. I don't particularly care for raised voices, and that is what she grew up with.

There are times when we have made accommodations that younger people do not or cannot understand. Your kids are sweet, but I do not expect them to exhibit the same maturity that you and your wife show us. Kids are kids. You and your wife are sweeties, and your kids will mature to your level, I am sure.

 

[Astronuc]

There are times when we have made accommodations that younger people do not or cannot understand. Your kids are sweet, but I do not expect them to exhibit the same maturity that you and your wife show us. Kids are kids. You and your wife are sweeties, and your kids will mature to your level, I am sure.

My daughter talks too much, and she needs to learn to listen.

I am concerned about my son. He is quiet and thoughtful, and a bit cynical about the world. He has also had some bad experience with some girls who were rude and very unkind to him. I hope he finds a gentle and patient woman with whom he can share his thoughts and enjoy pleasant conversation - kind like the signature Monique used to have.

Some of the best times I had with my wife just before we began dating were at dinner parties at friends' places, and we'd stand in the kitchen while I cooked and talk, or after dinner I'd wash dishes and she'd dry them, and we talked. And after that we'd sit off to the side and talk. After several months, I finally decided I'd better start dating her, which was a bit difficult since I lived 90 miles away. Over spring break, I asked her out, and then after 3 months of dating, I asked her to marry me.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Do most couples tend to have a clearly dominant personality. I know my parents did. Usually mom ruled the roost. Once in a great while dad would intervene, but only on the rarest of occasions.

hmmm well my gf of a year and I took the briggs myers test for fun and we are near opposites according to the test. But I do really think we balance each other out. I am passive, calming and "aloof". She is direct, organized and nervous. But so far it's worked out :)

Most such arguments would end with one of us laughing and saying something like, "That's why I love you."

Same here, we recognize our differences and celebrate them. We are both pretty grounded and intelligent so we make sure to understand and not let a difference ruin everything.

 

[Chronos]

Avoid grandma at all costs, Urvabara, it makes a bad first impression.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Marriage as a legal contract endorsed by the state is (or should be) obsolete. Marriage should only be a voluntary ceremony without legal implications if you want to announce that you are living together.

 

[Astronuc]

Marriage as a legal contract endorsed by the state is (or should be) obsolete. Marriage should only be a voluntary ceremony without legal implications if you want to announce that you are living together.

One enters into a marriage by one's volition - i.e. it's a choice, it's voluntary.

Marriage is a contract into which two parties enter both giving something (themselves) in order to received something (some consideration, which is supposed to be an exclusive relationship in most cases (unless one party is polygamous)).

Marriage requires effort, just like any relationship, or activity. When one gardens, one cultivates the ground, plants the seeds or seedlings, waters and fertilizes regularly, weed the ground, and then harvests the produce. The ground doesn't prepare itself, and plants don't plant or harvest themselves.

Marriage is about giving and receiving tender loving care (TLC).

But as we have seen many examples, marriage may not be for everyone.

 

[J77]

Isn't the bottom line: if one has to analyse marriage, one probably isn't cut out for marriage

(That thing about analysis goes with most questions posted in general )

 

[Astronuc]

Isn't the bottom line: if one has to analyse marriage, one probably isn't cut out for marriage

(That thing about analysis goes with most questions posted in general )

But then, this is PHYSICS FORUMS! What does one expect?

 

[J77]

Yeah -- that's why I stuck the old tongue out

Tho' some things really shouldn't be over-analysed

 

[Moonbear]

hmmm well my gf of a year and I took the briggs myers test for fun and we are near opposites according to the test. But I do really think we balance each other out. I am passive, calming and "aloof". She is direct, organized and nervous. But so far it's worked out :)



Same here, we recognize our differences and celebrate them. We are both pretty grounded and intelligent so we make sure to understand and not let a difference ruin everything.

I think the two of you make a very good couple. Not that we spent long together, but considering you had both just made a long car trip together and were still both smiling and talking to each other, that must mean something.

 

[Astronuc]

I think the two of you make a very good couple. Not that we spent long together, but considering you had both just made a long car trip together and were still both smiling and talking to each other, that must mean something.

Ah yes - the long distance driving test! That's a good one, and very practical.

My wife and I did a road trip together just after we got engaged. One of her professor's needed to have a car transferred from Houston to Chicago. My wife volunteered us. We took a side trip to Indiana to visit one of her old girl friends. It was a fun.

She did express her concern about the way I would let the gas tank get pretty low (I like to maximize range between fill ups), and she wasn't too pleased about the speed, but she still married me after that.

 

[DaveC426913]

Ah yes - the long distance driving test! That's a good one, and very practical.

My wife & I both love car trips. I love driving and she loves being driven. We're both fairly cerebral and enjoy the quality time taking.

One of our fave weekend activities is long day trips. And we routinely go 1500 miles on week holidays.

 

[Artaxerxes]

One enters into a marriage by one's volition - i.e. it's a choice, it's voluntary.

Marriage is a contract into which two parties enter both giving something (themselves) in order to received something (some consideration, which is supposed to be an exclusive relationship in most cases (unless one party is polygamous)).

Marriage requires effort, just like any relationship, or activity. When one gardens, one cultivates the ground, plants the seeds or seedlings, waters and fertilizes regularly, weed the ground, and then harvests the produce. The ground doesn't prepare itself, and plants don't plant or harvest themselves.

Marriage is about giving and receiving tender loving care (TLC).

But as we have seen many examples, marriage may not be for everyone.

Can't two parties give and receive without a governmental involvement?
Can't they cultivate the seeds on their own?
Giving and receiving tender loving care - doesn't that work without governmental regulations?
If there is love - just live together, and if you want others to know that you are a couple then you can have some sort of ceremony advertising your relation if you feel for it...but there should be no legal implications.
And when that tender feeling is dead and gone just say goodbye ... no court...no hell.

 

[Astronuc]

Can't two parties give and receive without a governmental involvement?

Sure - it's called cohabitation. On the other hand, some state (in the US, and perhaps elsewhere) have common-law statutes that legally protect the rights of individuals.

Can't they cultivate the seeds on their own?
Giving and receiving tender loving care - doesn't that work without governmental regulations?
If there is love - just live together, and if you want others to know that you are a couple then you can have some sort of ceremony advertising your relation if you feel for it...but there should be no legal implications.
And when that tender feeling is dead and gone just say goodbye ... no court...no hell.

The legal implications come from sharing property and assets.

Ideally two people get married because they love each other, which means among many things respect and honesty. Sadly, that sometimes isn't the case.

When I was getting married, my best friend was furious with me because he thought I should live with my then fiance and wait to see if it worked out. He refused to be best man at the wedding (a small private affair with family and friends), because he disagreed with marriage. He was living with his girlfriend who was my wife's best friend. She wanted to get married, especially after my wife and I got married, and my best friend didn't. They eventually got married and then divorced after several years.

I've been married for 25+ years, and been with the same woman 26+ years.

tender feeling is dead and gone

Well, funny thing about me - the tender feeling toward the women I have known never dies - but lives within me forever. I still care about all those women in my past, and I hope each is doing well with the paths and relationships they chose.

 

[DaveC426913]

Can't two parties give and receive without a governmental involvement?
Can't they cultivate the seeds on their own?
Giving and receiving tender loving care - doesn't that work without governmental regulations?
If there is love - just live together, and if you want others to know that you are a couple then you can have some sort of ceremony advertising your relation if you feel for it...but there should be no legal implications.
And when that tender feeling is dead and gone just say goodbye ... no court...no hell.

1] Whatever floats their collective boat. Let's try to remember that, when we state our opinions, they are merely that, and no one needs to feel their own opnion is being trod upon.


2] I know that, if my wife and I had not been married, we would quite likely not be together now. We've been through some pretty rough times - times that brought us close to the edge. If parting ways was something that could be enacted by only one of us (say, by merely moving out), it would have been easier. It was a logical hurdle that caused us to give great pause about crossing it.

We came back from that edge and now we both know we'll be together for our natural lives. In fact, it even makes our fights dwindle. Many fights that might have continued, just don't. What's the point? We love each other and we're not going anywhere. We have a mutual trust.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

my best friend was furious with me because he thought I should live with my then fiance and wait to see if it worked out. He refused to be best man at the wedding (a small private affair with family and friends), because he disagreed with marriage. He was living with his girlfriend who was my wife's best friend. She wanted to get married, especially after my wife and I got married, and my best friend didn't.

He was furious with you because you blew his program!

 

[Astronuc]

To the man I married

because you let me know you completely
because you are still a mystery

because you do not wish to change me
because you have changed me forever

because you see the good and true in me
because you forgive all else in me

because you are not who I expected to love
because you are just who I need to love

because you gave me beautiful yesterdays
because you promise me beautiful tomorrows

because you asked for my hand
because I gave you my heart

I love you.

I think she loves me.

 

[Moonbear]

Can't two parties give and receive without a governmental involvement?
Can't they cultivate the seeds on their own?
Giving and receiving tender loving care - doesn't that work without governmental regulations?
If there is love - just live together, and if you want others to know that you are a couple then you can have some sort of ceremony advertising your relation if you feel for it...but there should be no legal implications.
And when that tender feeling is dead and gone just say goodbye ... no court...no hell.

Actually, the most useful function of a legal marriage rather than cohabitation is to protect you when you split up. The legal divorce proceedings are in place to help you figure out how to divide up your shared assets and disentangle your liabilities. It would be very difficult to have any sort of long-term cohabitation arrangement that kept both of your assets entirely separate and wouldn't lead to a real mess if you decided it was time to head your separate ways. Legal marriage has nothing to do with commitment and love, and everything to do with protecting property and income and determining how to fairly divide it should you be unable to stay together any longer. It provides other legal protections as well (i.e., medical decision-making in the event one or the other partner is incapacitated to make decisions for themselves).

So, I'm taking the question more generically to refer to "what's it like to live with one person the rest of your life," rather than specifically requiring it be in the context of legal marriage.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

To the man I married

because you let me know you completely
because you are still a mystery

because you do not wish to change me
because you have changed me forever

because you see the good and true in me
because you forgive all else in me

because you are not who I expected to love
because you are just who I need to love

because you gave me beautiful yesterdays
because you promise me beautiful tomorrows

because you asked for my hand
because I gave you my heart

I love you.

I think she loves me.

Mine says:

"To the man I married

Make run to the dump

Paint livingroom

Landscape hillside

Put up insulation in pump house

... etc, etc, etc"

 

[Moonbear]

To the man I married

because you let me know you completely
because you are still a mystery

because you do not wish to change me
because you have changed me forever

because you see the good and true in me
because you forgive all else in me

because you are not who I expected to love
because you are just who I need to love

because you gave me beautiful yesterdays
because you promise me beautiful tomorrows

because you asked for my hand
because I gave you my heart

I love you.

I think she loves me.

Mine says:

"To the man I married

Make run to the dump

Paint livingroom

Landscape hillside

Put up insulation in pump house

... etc, etc, etc"

I think Astronuc got the better deal there.

 

[Astronuc]

I think Astronuc got the better deal there.

Well - it was my birthday.