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Hear. Hear.Adamchiv said:For the admin, I know this is becoming unscientific, and hope we can get back on topic asap
Hear. Hear.Adamchiv said:For the admin, I know this is becoming unscientific, and hope we can get back on topic asap
houlahound said:this is a physics community granted on a biology sub- forum. Have you considered joining a biology forum with a dedicated evolutionary biologist community.
No offense to the physicists here.
houlahound said:Agouti, sable, black brindle cats - where have you seen that in domestic cats??
All our wild cats here are from domestic stock.
Adamchiv said:Can anyone tell me at roughly what point all the main organs became inherant, I know its gradual, but for example did our ancestors (i.e earliest life forms) live a long time without a liver, or kidney etc
Energy. Are there other energetic chemistries than coupled oxidations and reductions? Yes. Are they common? No.Adamchiv said:why did we ever (again I say we as the whole spectrum of evolved life) start to need oxygen and require food?
Adamchiv said:Youve just sent me on another tangent why did we ever (again I say we as the whole spectrum of evolved life) start to need oxygen and require food? Does this stem back to the fact that bacteria requires some sort of energy nurishment? And does bacteria need oxygen? Does it all stem back to bacteria? Or a little further down the line? (Sorry) your previous answer was very helpful
sarrabeth said:When cleaner fuels were used, the trees began to look white again, and the moths went back to their original color. This is not evolution, it is an example of how natural selection works on the existing variations in the gene pool.
Thank you for responding.Drakkith said:No, that's evolution also. Evolution is simply the change in heritable traits in a population over time, and it includes the causes of that change.
sarrabeth said:It seems to me that the heritable traits have not changed, since both colors were and are present.
sarrabeth said:The very fact that a population has a lot of variations is a way of ensuring that a portion of the group might survive a sudden change in environment. If the genome of a group is too similar, all it takes is a new disease or climate change to pretty much wipe it out.
lavinia said:I sent your question to a biologist friend. Here is the first part of his response.
"A lot of issues here. Let’s start with the lumps on the arms etc. First, one has to distinguish the evolution of complex structures from single gene mutations that occur in a single generation. The lumps on the arm are presumably an example of the latter. Whether any mutation is truly “neutral” meaning that it confers no selective advantage or disadvantage is still, I believe, a matter of debate. However, if mutation does not confer a selective advantage, it is likely to be diluted into the gene pool to such an extent that it’s reappearance seems more like a random event. There are mutations that fit this description - white forelock, sixth finger etc. Note that neutral or even deleterious mutations can gain in frequency in a subpopulation where inbreeding occurs and dilution is not possible. So, for example, the hemophilia mutation is relatively common on Pitcairn island as well as in the British royal bloodline. The bottom line here is that we don’t have lumps on our arms because the lumps confer no selective advantage and we are not inbred.
More on the complex structures in a subsequent note when more time is available. "
lavinia said:Here is the second installment of my friend's response.
"
Where complex structures like a nose and mouth are concerned, it must be appreciated that they did not arise as a single mutational event, but developed as stepwise elaborations of primordial structures. In multicellular invertebrates that are either sessile or that do not benefit from movement in a straight line (e.g. sea cucumber, slime mold) there is no selective advantage to development of a midline around which structures are placed symmetrically. However, in multicellular vertebrates for whom movement is a straight line is advantageous for targeting food sources, escaping predators, etc., development around a midline has a selective advantage. Symmetrical development around this midline helps maintain this selective advantage (fins on either side of the fish vertebral column, legs on either side of the early amphibians), and this arrangement thus dominates the anatomy of multicellular vertebrates. The nose is not a single structure but a complex one that connects both to the respiratory system and the brain. It is situated around the midline, with parts placed symmetrically on either side of the midline. The same holds for the mouth, which is just a part of the digestive system. While it’s theoretically possible to find a mouth at, say, the top of the forehead in the midline, evolution of the digestive system occurred in a coordinated fashion with the central nervous system. For the mouth to be at the very top of the head, the esophagus would then have to travel through the brain without disrupting brain function, which depends on communication between neurons on either side of the midline, and which was also evolving with the digestive system. Given the arrangement of these structures in primordial species, it is highly unlikely that any single genetic event could effect such a dramatic rearrangement. Moreover, were that to happen, it is prohibitively unlikely that the new arrangement would confer a selective advantage.
The notion that complex structures arise as stepwise changes in corresponding systems found in ancestral species also holds for networks like the circulatory system. Circulation arose to allow cells deep inside solid organs receive needed oxygen, and once the system developed, it is not feasible to imagine new organ systems arising that would obtain oxygen by some other method. Note that in insects, which are invertebrates whose evolutionary tree goes back to ancestral invertebrates that did not have a circulatory system, such a system does not exist, and cells receive oxygen through conduits that connect from the surface of the body. The insect system is not too different from that of the invertebrate sea cucumber. It’s not surprising that the insect system is not well adapted to vertebrate organisms with very large organs that may be billions of cells thick. So, the insect system is built on the tubule structure also found in the sea cucumber, while the arterial/venous system is descended from the oxygenation system of early vertebrates.
The underlying motive force for skepticism about complex structures evolving rather that being designed by an intelligence stems, in my view, from a lack of appreciation of the amount of time evolution has been taking place. Most people cannot really get a handle on a time frame of 40 million centuries, which is a reasonable estimate of the time since life first appeared. A lot of genetic experiments that failed can take place over that expanse of time. "
gabi123 said:Essentially, think of evolution as a bell curve. There is a certain path for every human, but a minority stray away. Mutations, as you described, happen not in terms of evolutionary theory. They could be from disease, or elsewhat.
How?Adamchiv said:We know evolution doesn't have a conscious mind...
Because there is a perfectly good explanation of evolution (backed up with evidence) that does not require a conscious mindChris Miller said:How?
Evolution may be looked at at the rise of consciousness, but that is NOT the same as saying that evolution has a conscious mind, a concept that is patently ridiculous unless you are talking about a god in which case you are on the wrong forum.Chris Miller said:How?
I like De Chardin's view of evolution as "the rise of consciousness."
Only if taking an anthropocentric point of view regarding humans beings as a goal of evolution.phinds said:Evolution may be looked at at the rise of consciousness ...
No argument. I did not suggest that it was a good idea to consider it that way, just that one COULD should one choose.rootone said:Only if taking an anthropocentric point of view regarding humans beings as a goal of evolution.
99%+ of modern lifeforms on Earth have not developed self awareness, yet they continue to exist and evolve.
Positing a universe that has ANY objective IS positing a god, or at best metaphysics. In either case, it is not physics.Chris Miller said:Ray Kurzweil, in "The Age of Spiritual Machines" grants evolution a small IQ. I'm not talking about a god (unless one defines "god" as existence). I'm talking about a universe (existence) that would appear to have some objective beyond mere survival and some small ability (given time) to meet this objective.
Are you not part of the universe?phinds said:Positing a universe that has ANY objective IS positing a god.
What does that have to do with anything ?Chris Miller said:Are you not part of the universe?