Is Heroism Defined by One Act or a Lifetime of Actions?

[CaptainQuasar]

And I do not think that saying the Chinese human rights activist is a hero belittles someone who threw themselves on a grenade, so I don't think saying McCain is a hero belittles them either. I think the reason that you guys are claiming it's belittling is because you don't like McCain.

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[Evo]

I said nothing like that, any more than, as Art tried to imply, did I claim that all prisoners are heroes.

I'm saying that someone who intentionally risks and suffers imprisonment and torture for a cause they believe to be benefiting and safeguarding others - like the Chinese human rights activist or someone entering combat in a war they're fighting out of duty, rather than for plunder or something - is a hero.

You're entitled to your opinion. But, honestly, comparing someone that joined the millitary because that's what everyone in his family did, as McCain said, it never entered his mind that he wouldn't, and a Chinese human rights activist is like comparing the moon to the sun. There is no comparison.

Like I said, if that's your definition of a hero, then that is simply your definition of a hero. It is not my definition, nor, it appears, is it the definition of the majority of the people here.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

You're entitled to your opinion. But, honestly, comparing someone that joined the millitary because that's what everyone in his family did, as McCain said, it never entered his mind that he wouldn't, and a Chinese human rights activist is like comparing the moon to the sun. There is no comparison.

Like I said, if that's your definition of a hero, then that is simply your definition of a hero. It is not my definition, nor, it appears, is it the definition of the majority of the people here.

From what you said right there it doesn't appear to be a matter of definitions; you may simply have more authoritative knowledge than me for McCain's motivation to enter combat. You're saying he was sort of herded into combat via peer pressure and I think more noble reasons like honor and integrity and solidarity with his countrymen were more prominent and that there was more volition to the choice. If you agree that the Chinese human rights activist is a hero it sounds like we have pretty similar definitions and differ only on the facts of each case.

By the way, I'm not saying that people who didn't make the same choices as him during that era, or didn't have the same beliefs, were cowards or something. I think many of the Vietnam anti-war activists were certainly courageous and some even qualify as heroic. I'm also not saying that the Vietnam war was right or just, as McCain appears to believe. Being a hero doesn't have anything to do with being correct in your beliefs in my opinion.

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[LowlyPion]

I think the reason that you guys are claiming it's belittling is because you don't like McCain.

I just don't see how it serves any purpose to think that there would be any contests as regards to selflessness. The circumstances of anyone's acts of selflessness are incredibly complex to compare. For instance as regards Mother Theresa surely her selflessness and devotion rises above the threshold of our notice for throwing herself on the grenade of human suffering in Calcutta. Yet she has faced down no tank or dodged a screaming SAM.

As for McCain no one denies that he placed himself in harms way, though the reason may more fairly be attributed to career ambition on his part than actual love for country or particular devotion to his duty. Neither was his captivity marked by any particular acts of total disregard for himself, as he was apparently broken by the North Vietnamese, insofar as he became useful to them for their propaganda purposes.

One might even observe that McCain's experience served more to form his inner self, than it did to distinguish himself among other men, because it seems to have brought him to grips with the limits of his hubris and his life of privilege. That the Republicans have chosen to mythologize the facts of his confinement is to be expected for the purpose of big noting their candidate. But merely because some around here choose not to buy into this political hagiography of the candidate, you know scientific method being so rampant here, doesn't necessarily imply bias based on disliking him, so much as it might really be the reflection of a more objective assessment of the facts.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

I just don't see how it serves any purpose to think that there would be any contests as regards to selflessness.

But thinking there's contests in regards to heroism is perfectly reasonable? Designating one act of selflessness as heroism belittles people who acted with even greater selflessness?

But merely because some around here choose not to buy into this political hagiography of the candidate, you know scientific method being so rampant here, doesn't necessarily imply bias based on disliking him, so much as it might really be the reflection of a more objective assessment of the facts.

That's the opposite of what I'm seeing - it seems to me that people are not applying scientific method very well here. You may note that many of my arguments above have involved demonstrating that someone else taking similar actions could easily qualify as a hero or that the definitions of "hero" that appear to be contrived to exclude McCain would exclude other people who are clearly heroes or make heroism extrinsic, a matter of context. That's why I'm positing that it has something to do with McCain personally.

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[turbo]

You may note that many of my arguments above have involved demonstrating that someone else taking similar actions could easily qualify as a hero or that the definitions of "hero" that appear to be contrived to exclude McCain would exclude other people who are clearly heroes. That's why I'm positing that it has something to do with McCain personally.

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Getting captured does not make you a hero. Getting tortured and broken by your captors does not make you a hero. If that were the case, every single captive in Gitmo is a hero. We should give them medals and send them home. Sheesh!

People who reject the aggrandizement of McCain for his experiences in Viet-Nam are not all McCain-haters. Perhaps you could see this "hero" aura in terms of what people have actually done to earn it - not what their handlers think they can get away with.

 

[Evo]

From what you said right there it doesn't appear to be a matter of definitions; you may simply have more authoritative knowledge than me for McCain's motivation to enter combat. You're saying he was sort of herded into combat via peer pressure

He wrote about it in one of his books, he said he wasn't forced to go, but it wasn't questioned that he would go.

My did was hit in the face by shrapnel and blinded while trying to help a wounded soldier. He was completely blinded in one eye and only able to see through a tiny spot in the other, he was "legally blind", he's dead now. My dad managed to put himself through college after the war and get his engineering degree while raising two kids. IMO, my dad is a war hero, McCain is not. We definitely differ.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Getting captured does not make you a hero. Getting tortured and broken by your captors does not make you a hero. If that were the case, every single captive in Gitmo is a hero.

This is the same misleading characterization of my argument that Art made above, as though I've claimed that all prisoners must be heroes.

He wrote about it in one of his books, he said he wasn't forced to go, but it wasn't questioned that he would go.

That doesn't mean that the reason he went was not a matter of duty, integrity, or solidarity with his countrymen, though.

My did was hit in the face by shrapnel and blinded while trying to help a wounded soldier. He was completely blinded in one eye and only able to see through a tiny spot in the other, he was "legally blind", he's dead now. My dad managed to put himself through college after the war and get his engineering degree while raising two kids. IMO, my dad is a war hero, McCain is not. We definitely differ.

Okay, but if you're saying the difference is definition, I don't understand what you're saying is materially different in your dad's case. Is it because you think McCain taking part in an offensive did not constitute helping others? Or because you regard blindness as a more severe injury that what McCain suffered? Or because of his (heroic) efforts post-war in raising his children? I think that your dad was a war hero too.

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To summarize, that a Chinese human rights activist intentionally risking and then suffering 5½ years including two years of torture would qualify as heroism indicates to me that an individual taking the same actions as McCain would be heroic if the cause was sufficiently noble. Hence opposition to calling McCain a hero seems like it must either be rooted in disputing the genuine nobility of his cause (which would be an extrinsic objection) or disputing whether the cause was the motivation for his actions (which could be true but points to a difference on the facts of the case, not on the definition of heroism.)

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[Evo]

Seriously, this is an opinion thread. You've given your opinion, I've given mine. You bringing up chinese freedom fighters a thousand times isn't going to change anyone's opinion of McCain, unless McCain *is in fact* a chinese freedom fighter, in which case, that might have some meaning.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

I should also say that I'm not saying I regard McCain's motivations as unquestionable - I'm just saying that I think it's important to acknowledge that his actions could demonstrate heroism if they were not taken for craven reasons. I certainly agree that McCain's campaign(s) will have hyped everything up in an attempt to remove all doubt that his motivations were anything but noble.

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[CaptainQuasar]

Seriously, this is an opinion thread. You've given your opinion, I've given mine. You bringing up chinese freedom fighters a thousand times isn't going to change anyone's opinion of McCain, unless McCain is a chinese freedom fighter, in which case, that might have some meaning.

Ah, sorry, I mistook it for also being a reasoning thread. Sorry to intrude.

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[Evo]

Ah, sorry, I mistook it for also being a reasoning thread too. Sorry to intrude.

Your reasoning is that you consider McCain and a Chinese human rights activist the same?

 

[turbo]

My father quit HS to volunteer for the Airborne. He broke his ankle in a drop and spent the remainder of the war in a motor pool attached to an artillery unit in Belgium. He is not a hero, but I am proud of him anyway, just as I am proud of the many other vets of his age. My wife's uncle died recently, and he was at Anzio - a battle with heavy US losses. Lots of these guys saw harrowing duty and acted bravely. They do not (did not) consider themselves heroes, but we all honor their duty. Seeing self-aggrandizement by politicians tossing around "hero" is pretty tacky.

 

[Evo]

My father quit HS to volunteer for the Airborne. He broke his ankle in a drop and spent the remainder of the war in a motor pool attached to an artillery unit in Belgium. He is not a hero, but I am proud of him anyway, just as I am proud of the many other vets of his age. My wife's uncle died recently, and he was at Anzio - a battle with heavy US losses. Lots of these guys saw harrowing duty and acted bravely. They do not (did not) consider themselves heroes, but we all honor their duty. Seeing self-aggrandizement by politicians tossing around "hero" is pretty tacky.

Absolutely agree. My dad never talked about what happened. I knew from my mother and the medals my dad had. He felt he was just doing what anyone would do in that circumstance, you forget about your own safety and just try to pull your buddies out of harm when you're being bombed. He was on board a ship. Oh, McCain ran for safety, well I guess not everyone feels the same way about helping.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Your reasoning is that you consider McCain and a Chinese human rights activist the same?

You've avoided responding to more than that. But yes, I regard analogical reasoning as valid as the ways you or others have been arguing.

If you regard analogical reasoning as valid, we could search for a different analogy that parallels the situation acceptable to both you and I. You don't have to pretend that my entire point rests upon that single comparison. I mostly pursued it because people seemed to consider it another example of heroism (or so I inferred from an apparent resistance to respond to it.)

My father quit HS to volunteer for the Airborne. He broke his ankle in a drop and spent the remainder of the war in a motor pool attached to an artillery unit in Belgium. He is not a hero, but I am proud of him anyway, just as I am proud of the many other vets of his age. My wife's uncle died recently, and he was at Anzio - a battle with heavy US losses. Lots of these guys saw harrowing duty and acted bravely. They do not (did not) consider themselves heroes, but we all honor their duty. Seeing self-aggrandizement by politicians tossing around "hero" is pretty tacky.

I would count your wife's uncle as a hero myself and as for your father, like I said I think just being willing to stick your neck out that way is pretty good hero cred.

I do agree that, genuine hero or not, for someone to ostentatiously talk about themselves as a hero (or pay other people to, in the case of a campaign) is arrogant and unseemly. It's certainly possible for someone to tarnish their heroism or cast it into doubt by making their own motivations look bad.

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[Evo]

They didn't consider themselves "war heroes" and we don't consider them "war heroes", they did the right thing.

If McCain wants to call himself a hero, pffft. Let him. Don't expect others to think the same.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Just as trivia, since everyone else is offering their family histories, my grandfather flew on a bomber in WWII and my great-grandfather fought as an infantryman in WWI and died of his wounds.

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[Evo]

Just as trivia, since everyone else is offering their family histories, my grandfather flew on a bomber in WWII and my great-grandfather fought as an infantryman in WWI and died of his wounds.

My Grandfather was a Captain in the Navy in WWII. He's not a war hero either.

My brother enlisted in the army during the Vietnam war, not drafted, enlisted. My first husband was in Naval Intelligence during the Vietnam war. My 'adopted son", actually he adopted me as his mother, just recently finished his tour of duty with the marines in Iraq. None of them are heroes.

Oh, and all seven of my uncles served in WWII.

Heh, I think I have everyone beat in shear numbers going back to WWII.

Can we stop the nonsense now?

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Heh, I think I have everyone beat in shear numbers going back to WWII.

Can we stop the nonsense now?

I wasn't competing, I was really just mentioning it in passing as I thought everyone else was, to show that my point of view isn't from lack of contact with the military or veterans or something. I don't think it's nonsense, I found it interesting to hear everyone's stories (though I don't think it makes any of us authoritative). Come to think of it, my grandfather also earned an engineering degree to make his way and raise his kids after WWII, though he didn't have the problem of war injuries like you mentioned your father facing.

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[Evo]

I wasn't competing, I was really just mentioning it in passing as I thought everyone else was, to show that my point of view isn't from lack of contact with the military or veterans or something. I don't think it's nonsense, I found it interesting to hear everyone's stories (though I don't think it makes any of us authoritative). Come to think of it, my grandfather also earned an engineering degree to make his way and raise his kids after WWII, though he didn't have the problem of war injuries like you mentioned your father facing

Then can we agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion?

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Then can we agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion?

Oh, sure. I'm sorry if I somehow gave the impression I don't think people are entitled to their own opinions. I didn't think I was being any rougher in advocating for my own position than you were for yours.

In fact, you stated that holding an opinion like mine belittles "true" heroism, which seems to lean a bit harder on the entitlement to one's own opinion than I feel I have been. And come to think of it, I have explicitly said a couple of times that you could be correct that McCain's motivations may have been such that he wasn't heroic... this seems a bit rhetorical. But whatever, no need for the discussion to continue; we've certainly both had our say.

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[Evo]

As I said back in post 317, you are entitled to your opinion, but it is not my opinion.

 

[Art]

This is the same misleading characterization of my argument that Art made above, as though I've claimed that all prisoners must be heroes.

Your argument as I understand it is; McCain is a hero because he put himself in harm's way by joining the military and all members of the military are heroes but all US POWs are members of the military ergo all POWs are heroes.

Where's the mischaracterization you accuse me of?

If I misunderstood you and if simply joining the military is not the reason why you see McCain as a hero then would you explain what action he performed which, in your mind, is heroic.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

As I said back in post 317, you are entitled to your opinion, but it is not my opinion.

Well, as I said in post 318, it sounds as if our opinions on what the definition of a hero is are similar. But that's simply an opinion itself; I apologize if in explaining why I thought so I made you feel like I was pressuring you.

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[Cyrus]

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/mccain_post_card_word[1].pdf

Interesting read.

In August 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain.[44] He was subjected to rope bindings and repeated beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[33][44] Further injuries led to the beginning of a suicide attempt, stopped by guards.[33] After four days, McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession".[33] He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable, but as he later wrote, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."[45][46] Many American POWs were tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions" and propaganda statements;[47] virtually all of them eventually yielded something to their captors.[48] His wartime injuries left McCain permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head.[49] He subsequently received two to three beatings weekly because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.[50]


Interview with McCain on April 24, 1973, after his return homeMcCain refused to meet with various anti-war groups seeking peace in Hanoi, wanting to give neither them nor the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory.[51] From late 1969 onward, treatment of McCain and many of the other POWs became more tolerable,[52] while McCain continued actively to resist the camp authorities.[53] McCain and other prisoners cheered the U.S. "Christmas Bombing" campaign of December 1972, viewing it as a forceful measure to push North Vietnam to terms.[46][54]

Altogether, McCain was a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. He was released on March 14, 1973.[55]

From wikipedia.

 

[Evo]

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/mccain_post_card_word[1].pdf

Interesting read.
From wikipedia.

I don't blame him for caving in after only 4 days, heck, I would have caved in after an hour. Heroes are usually dead, so he wasn't a hero.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Your argument as I understand it is; McCain is a hero because he put himself in harm's way by joining the military and all members of the military are heroes but all US POWs are members of the military ergo all POWs are heroes.

Where's the mischaracterization you accuse me of?

If I misunderstood you and if simply joining the military is not the reason why you see McCain as a hero then would you explain what action he performed which, in your mind, is heroic.

I thought I'd already said these things but I may have been unclear, I apologize: I do not think that all prisoners are heroes and I do not think that all members of the military are heroes.

I think that someone who intentionally places themselves at risk of a certain level of harm (I haven't specified a particular level of risk or harm yet... that might be tricky to quantify) for the sake of a cause they believe to be primarily of benefit to other people can be called a hero. So I think that not all members of the military, but those who take part out of an honest sense of duty, solidarity with their countrymen, or otherwise the "someone has to do it" principle (while genuinely believing the war is a necessary effort) and willingly enter a situation like combat, field medical corps, spying, or blockade running for example, would qualify. On both sides of the conflict.

It's probably even less easy to quantify but I should think that firemen and police officers are often in an equivalent situation. Certainly when they're directly rescuing someone while putting themselves in harm's way, at least.

And I'm sure there are many other occupations and situations that fit the bill too.

In general, we're really just saying that someone has been selfless and valorous in an admirable way, right? At a certain level of self-risk. Like I said above, the case of Charles Lindbergh has always confounded me a bit. They definitely call him a hero all over the place but the trans-Atlantic flight doesn't seem quite selfless enough. Perhaps the definition has changed over the years.

(Or, perhaps my definition is incorrect or inadequate; that's certainly a possibility too.)

Oh, and another thing is it seems to me that the definition of what a hero is would need to be a matter of intrinsic factors - the qualities of the person, the qualities of the action, and the reasons they took the action, rather than extrinsic or contextual things.

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[Evo]

Charles Lindburgh isn't a hero in my book either. Just like Timothy Leary is not my hero, but he is to some.

Let's go to one vote person, no one is right and no one is wrong.

The end.

 

[mathwonk]

talk about heroes. did you hear the npr story corps episode from the woman in alabama who recalled going to register to vote decades ago and was asked by the registrar how many black jelly beans were in a jar? she never wanted to go back after his other insults and dismissive behavior, but her pastor said they needed to go back every week until the building fell down, and never accept being denied the right to vote. they went for two years, and finally the registrar asked her to recite the preamble to the constitution which she did, and he gave her a ballot, saying something rude and offensive to her. she said she got to vote, but she could not believe it should have been that hard, in fact she was sure it should not have been that hard.

now that is a hero. and john mccain is now encouraging the same kind of racism that denied that woman the vote 40-60 years ago. to me john mccain is not a hero today, even if he showed some courage in prison 40 years ago. he is exploiting his miltary experience to try to take power and protect the privileges of other rich people, like himself. There is no heroism in anything he has done lately, just the opposite.It is difficult to be objective however on any such questions. I say this not knowing mccain personally, while others here who have military ties defend him because of that connection. In the same vein, I met Timothy Leary and he was nice to me, and I was friends with some of Charles Lindbergh's family, so it is more difficult for me to be hard on them for their faults.

perhaps if we draw an analogy or comparison between lindbergh and mccain, we might say some people have heroic episodes in their life, and then later do things which are less heroic, even harmful. people are complicated and life is long, but if a man runs in his 60's or 70's for president, we cannot afford to elect him based on his behavior as a 30 year old pilot. by then that is largely irrelevant, and it may even dull his ability to perceive the error of a given conflict.