My RunIN with the JackBooted Thugs

[Bartholomew]

Interesting anecdote. Fact remains that an oar is not a weapon--it's less effective than bare hands--and moreover, if you're holding an oar, you're probably _not_ about to go for a gun. The coast guardsmen were in no danger and should not have pulled a weapon.

By the way, and I haven't read all the replies here so excuse me if this has been treated before, do coast guardsmen generally carry badges? It strikes me as odd that if they had badges they didn't show them.

 

[Evo]

Interesting anecdote. Fact remains that an oar is not a weapon--it's less effective than bare hands--and moreover, if you're holding an oar, you're probably _not_ about to go for a gun. The coast guardsmen were in no danger and should not have pulled a weapon.

A lunatic weilding an oar has to be stopped before he hits you. Stopping Ray at a distance as the officer did was the most sensible and non-violent measure. If Ray had proceeded, then violent measures would have been called for. And who's to say he wasn't concealing a gun while holding the oar?

Also someone on drugs like PCP, someone insane, etc... can be quite powerful in a confrontation, they have no self preservation in mind when they attack, therefore are very dangerous.

 

[misskitty]

Interesting anecdote. Fact remains that an oar is not a weapon--it's less effective than bare hands--and moreover, if you're holding an oar, you're probably _not_ about to go for a gun. The coast guardsmen were in no danger and should not have pulled a weapon.

By the way, and I haven't read all the replies here so excuse me if this has been treated before, do coast guardsmen generally carry badges? It strikes me as odd that if they had badges they didn't show them.

It's not a stupid question. Believe me I learned much more about the Military after I started dating my boyfriend, who is in the army and is contemplating signing up with the Coast Guard when his time is up. Coast Guard Personel don't carry badges. The Border Patrol does, but coast guard doesn't. It's no different than seeing Marine, Navy or Army personel, they don't carry bages either.

 

[shmoe]

...I opened the shower door and looked into the barrel of a gun pointed directly at me...

Yikes! From a nice comforting shower to staring at death, scary! Fairly different circumstances though, in your case they had absolutely no idea what they were up against. The gun was drawn before they knew the opposition was a naked woman and her 2 year old daughter. Obviously it wouldn't have made sense to arrest you.

I cannot begin to fathom how you would need to draw your weapon on someone because of their actions (that you just witnessed) and not need to detain them immediately. If the cop thought ray may have been carrying a gun, why the heck did he let him go to his car after? Just in case he had left his gun in his glovebox? Why would you let someone who is potentially a threat out of your gunsight? If they weren't a threat, why put them in your sights in the first place? Different views of law enforcement I guess, but I don't think this sort of thing is acceptible, at least how I'm imagining things to have taken place.

 

[Bartholomew]

A lunatic weilding an oar has to be stopped before he hits you. Stopping Ray at a distance as the officer did was the most sensible and non-violent measure. If Ray had proceeded, then violent measures would have been called for. And who's to say he wasn't concealing a gun while holding the oar?

I have already refuted both of these points. An oar is less of a weapon than no weapon, and if he's picking up an oar it indicates he probably is _not_ going to go for or have a gun.

Also someone on drugs like PCP, someone insane, etc... can be quite powerful in a confrontation, they have no self preservation in mind when they attack, therefore are very dangerous.

You believe that this guy looked like he was on drugs or insane?


By the way, if the coast guard does not carry badges and work in plainclothes, why do they make arrests? Doesn't seem like a smart modus operandi to me, if all you have that says "coast guard" is your word for it.

 

[Evo]

I cannot begin to fathom how you would need to draw your weapon on someone because of their actions (that you just witnessed) and not need to detain them immediately. If the cop thought ray may have been carrying a gun, why the heck did he let him go to his car after? Just in case he had left his gun in his glovebox? Why would you let someone who is potentially a threat out of your gunsight? If they weren't a threat, why put them in your sights in the first place? Different views of law enforcement I guess, but I don't think this sort of thing is acceptible, at least how I'm imagining things to have taken place.

Think about it, if Ray got in his car and drove away, all is fine, if Ray then tries something else (like pulling a gun) they're prepared. They were giving Ray a chance to just go away and let them handle the person they were arresting. As long as Ray was there he was a potential threat and the officer needed to keep his gun drawn. That doesn't mean he intended to shoot Ray, but he had to be ready just incase. If your gun isn't already drawn when someone pulls a gun on you, by the time you pull yours, you'll probably be shot already. Having his gun drawn was a normal preventative measure for this situation.

 

[Bartholomew]

Well, then, why don't police officers go around with their guns drawn at all times? They could encounter a shooter at any time. You don't draw a gun unless you have reason to believe a person is physically dangerous.

 

[Bartholomew]

And if they let him get in a car, they can't see him inside the car. The windows will prevent that by being reflective. He could then pull a gun inside the car and shoot them both. If they thought he had a gun and was likely to use it, it would have been really stupid of them to let him out of their sight.

 

[shmoe]

I guess I'm a believer that the set of actions that warrant getting a gun pointed at you is almost* entirely contained in the set of actions that will get you arrested immediately. Maybe I just have stricter conditions that should be met before the firearm is drawn but I can't see this belief changing so we'll just have to agree to disagree.


*leaving some room for very exceptional circumstances, but with the limted information available I don't think that's the case here.

 

[loseyourname]

I guess I'm a believer that the set of actions that warrant getting a gun pointed at you is almost* entirely contained in the set of actions that will get you arrested immediately. Maybe I just have stricter conditions that should be met before the firearm is drawn but I can't see this belief changing so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

You don't have to do anything wrong to get a gun pulled on you. You only have to be perceived as a threat - it is a defensive measure. If it becomes clear at some point that you are not, in fact, a threat, and the initial perception was mistaken, why should you be arrested?

 

[Moonbear]

I guess I'm a believer that the set of actions that warrant getting a gun pointed at you is almost* entirely contained in the set of actions that will get you arrested immediately. Maybe I just have stricter conditions that should be met before the firearm is drawn but I can't see this belief changing so we'll just have to agree to disagree.


*leaving some room for very exceptional circumstances, but with the limted information available I don't think that's the case here.

As loseyourname and Evo have pointed out, it was a defensive measure. You don't wait until someone takes a swing at you with an oar to find out if he's going to use it. Since he quickly dropped it and walked away at that point, he was not a threat and probably would not have been arrested had he just stayed away. Had he continued to advance forward, or continued holding the oar in any way that remained threatening, he probably would have been immediately arrested, or at least held at gun point until back-up arrived to arrest him. Guns and knives aren't the only weapons people use. Plenty of ordinary objects can be used as a weapon, and the Coast Guardsman had no way to know what his intent was, especially if he was being argumentative and/or disrespectful leading up to that point.

 

[Bartholomew]

A man with an oar is less than a threat than a man with no oar. Plenty of ordinary objects can be used as a weapon, but an oar is not one of them. A typical oar is TEN FEET LONG and made of wood. How agile do you think it is possible to be with a weapon twice your height? You might as well try to attack someone with a hundred pound barbell.

 

[loseyourname]

By the way, it should be worth mentioning that I've had several encounters with Coast Guardsmen in the Long Beach/Los Angeles harbor and they've never given me any trouble. I've always approached them in a polite, friendly manner and they have approached me in the same way, even when it was to notify me that my boat was violation of some ordinance of other. (I've never been cited; only warned.)

 

[shmoe]

At the risk of sounding even more repetetive allow me quote myself, "Maybe I just have stricter conditions that should be met before the firearm is drawn". I feel this should be the absolute last resort after all other reasonable possibilities have been excluded. It's possible that I may unfairly hold law enforcement to very high standards and I feel they should make very very few mistakes when it comes to unnecessarily waving their guns around.

I'm starting to think there are major differences between Canada and the US. I've come across this snippet from http://ensign.ftlcomm.com/rcmp.html

"In the mid eighties there were some serious studies carried out on the level of stress that law enforcement officers face it was surprising to discover that Canada's policemen and women both municipal and federal hardly rated in stress compared to their counterparts South of the border. In questionnaires it was learned that few Canadians working in this role ever were called upon to draw their weapons and it was almost unheard of for them to actual use them."

I haven't been able to track down any of the studies they're referring to, or anything more recent.

 

[russ_watters]

At the risk of sounding even more repetetive allow me quote myself, "Maybe I just have stricter conditions that should be met before the firearm is drawn". I feel this should be the absolute last resort after all other reasonable possibilities have been excluded. It's possible that I may unfairly hold law enforcement to very high standards and I feel they should make very very few mistakes when it comes to unnecessarily waving their guns around.

I had to memorize the rules of engagement (of course) when standing guard duty in the navy, and iirc, the way it was worded was that you could draw your weapon if you had "a reasonable expectation that you might have to use it". When making an arrest, there is always the possibility that the person will resist and it is not unreasonable to be prepared for it.

I'm starting to think there are major differences between Canada and the US. I've come across this snippet from http://ensign.ftlcomm.com/rcmp.html

"In the mid eighties there were some serious studies carried out on the level of stress that law enforcement officers face it was surprising to discover that Canada's policemen and women both municipal and federal hardly rated in stress compared to their counterparts South of the border. In questionnaires it was learned that few Canadians working in this role ever were called upon to draw their weapons and it was almost unheard of for them to actual use them."

Based on the difference in crime/murder rates, this is hardly surprising. Police do get shot in the US with some regularity.

 

[ray b]

IF these were the freindly coasties of the past, no problem
if they were JUST GIVING WARNINGS, no problem
if there was a terrorest threat here they were working , no problem
if they were trying to stop dangerious drug smugglers , no problem

BUT what they are doing is being a pain the butt nit-picking and jailing for BS
for two seeds and a twig or a single roach [pot butt] they jail people for stuff like that!
that hasnot been done in 20 years and never by coasties
they jail a 50 year old german lady for over staying her visa by a few weeks
they spy, and pry and stick the nose in peoples boats repeatedly

I strongly suppect the leader is on a steroids induced power trip, the one who pulled the gun on me is a 19-21 year old PUNK in a uniform who is growing bigger by the day both in size and demensia

 

[chroot]

Oh, so they arrest you for doing illegal things like carrying around drugs or violating immigration laws. The horror!

Here's a new idea: keep your damn weed at home.

If anyone's "growing in demensia [sic]", my friend, it's you.

- Warren

 

[ray b]

Oh, so they arrest you for doing illegal things like carrying around drugs or violating immigration laws. The horror!

Here's a new idea: keep your damn weed at home.

If anyone's "growing in demensia [sic]", my friend, it's you.

- Warren

the people LIVE ON THEIR SMALL SAILBOATS
so the boat IS HOME
I used to but now just keep my boats there
and own a house

 

[chroot]

I suspect that a sailboat is not a legal residence (neither is a car, for example), so laws concerning searches are not applicable. The coast guard has a right to search boats in the same way that the highway patrol has a right to search cars.

If you're using illegal drugs, the coast guard -should- arrest you, because their job is to enforce law. (And I'm not bringing up the issue of whether or not marijuana should be legalized, because it's irrelevant -- as of 3/14/05, marijuana is not legal.) If you live on a sailboat, you probably shouldn't have illegal drugs, because, well, that would just be stupid!

- Warren

 

[ray b]

I suspect that a sailboat is not a legal residence (neither is a car, for example), so laws concerning searches are not applicable. The coast guard has a right to search boats in the same way that the highway patrol has a right to search cars.

If you're using illegal drugs, the coast guard -should- arrest you, because their job is to enforce law. (And I'm not bringing up the issue of whether or not marijuana should be legalized, because it's irrelevant -- as of 3/14/05, marijuana is not legal.) If you live on a sailboat, you probably shouldn't have illegal drugs, because, well, that would just be stupid!

- Warren

GET REAL DUDE
it is defacto legal and has been for years
thats the point only the JACKBOOTED THUG types bother people
about such PETTY things in miami in 2005
local cops willnot bother with such "CRIMES"
unless you runover their grandmom while smoking
and you sure can and many do live on boats here
and a boat is a HOME that should not be invaded on a whim by THUGS
I guess you would think differently if it was your space they were invading


BTW federal courts have given homeless people injuctions on such actions by the local cops in a civilrights lawsuit and made the city of miami pay millions for violations of their rights in an ACLU run class action

BTW2 I don't smoke pot or use any other DRUGS
that doesnot mean I like seeing others jailed for this kind of BS
we are not talking about dealers or smugglers that there is no shortage of in other parts of miami
but the THUGS are chicken to mess with them

 

[chroot]

GET REAL DUDE
it is defacto legal and has been for years

Marijuana is a controlled substance everywhere inside the borders of the US. It is illegal to possesses any amount without a doctor's prescription, and it's only legal within very specific limits even for those people using it medicinally.

thats the point only the JACKBOOTED THUG types bother people
about such PETTY things in miami in 2005
local cops willnot bother with such "CRIMES"
unless you runover their grandmom while smoking

It is entirely irrelevant how often other police officers choose to enforce the letter or the law; the highway patrol does not pull over every speeder, but that doesn't make speeding legal. Your illegal drugs are just that -- illegal -- and any police officer can (and probably should) arrest you for it.

and you sure can and many do live on boats here
and a boat is a HOME that should not be invaded on a whim by THUGS

Unless specific criteria are met, a boat is not a domicile, it's a vehicle. It is subject to an entirely different set of laws. It isn't a legal residence just because you call it a "home," any more than a raggedy tent I might set up on the steps of city hall.

I guess you would think differently if it was your space they were invading

You're right, I probably would think differently. For starters, I probably wouldn't pack my illegal residence full of controlled substances and then ***** about being caught on an internet forum.

- Warren

 

[ray b]

I hardly think a single butt [roach] or two seeds and a twig is any where near PACKED FULL
a HOME is were you lay your head and none of the boats were the slightest bit illegal

I no longer use any drugs and no where in this said anything about my being arrested for drugs DO YOU READ THE POSTS or just let the title of admin go to your head

 

[chroot]

I hardly think a single butt [roach] or two seeds and a twig is any where near PACKED FULL

Take a joke.

a HOME is were you lay your head

No, it isn't. A legal residence must meet specific criteria. A tent on the city hall steps is not a legal residence, even if you lay your head there. Neither is a sailboat at a community dock. It's a vehicle.

- Warren

 

[misskitty]

Ray b, grow up. Learn to respect others and the law enforcement personel that keep you safe and protect your rights. If you can get along with the authorities, then behave yourself, obey the laws, and don't give them any reason to interact with you. When they do, be HOSPITIABLE to them. You don't have to like them, but learn to respect them and they'll respect you. Grow up.

 

[misskitty]

I fyou have no respect for the "stupid laws" as you call them, then emmigrate to some country that has laws that you can live with. I don't care if your a 55 year old man. You should know better than to interfere with an arrest. You should also have a handle on what respect means. Yes it has to be earned. However that doesn't mean that you can go around cursing at people all day long or being a bitter person who thinks he is above the law. From reading your post, it seems to me that you still need to grow up. Oh and by the way, Law enforcement and Military personel are NOT pigs. Pigs are barn yard animals that are raised for slaughter so they can be packaged and shipped to your local grocery store.

 

[ray b]

I fyou have no respect for the "stupid laws" as you call them, then emmigrate to some country that has laws that you can live with. I don't care if your a 55 year old man. You should know better than to interfere with an arrest. You should also have a handle on what respect means. Yes it has to be earned. However that doesn't mean that you can go around cursing at people all day long or being a bitter person who thinks he is above the law. From reading your post, it seems to me that you still need to grow up. Oh and by the way, Law enforcement and Military personel are NOT pigs. Pigs are barn yard animals that are raised for slaughter so they can be packaged and shipped to your local grocery store.

my people built this place from the ground up
I DO NOT CUT AND RUN
this is home
in spite of the current neo-facist government direction and leadership
I wish there were no PIGS
I wish the cops would weed out the jerks
BUT THAT RARELY HAPPENS
you little yankee school kid have never seen a pig
luckie you
they are very real

I will NEVER BE A "GOOD GERMAN" who blindly belives the goverments

 

[Evo]

Ray, you need to settle down, you appear a bit paranoid and misskitty is right in pointing out that your wholesale slurs against "the establishment" are wrong and unwarranted.

Can you discuss this in a calm, rational manner without resorting to name calling?

 

[misskitty]

Ray, if your heritage has been part of helping build this country and you are proud to call this country "home", then you should at least need to believe in what it stands for. As far as knowing Law and Military personel, I have many family members and extended family members who risk their lives everyday to preserve what we have. Yes, I'm a Yankee and Proud of it.

I'm not saying that everyone who has ever served in a position of law enforecement has an exemplary record. There are many who have quite the opposite. However, be that as it may, I think your overall perception of these people is in no way warrented or respectful and quite frankly I think its wrong.

As far as your "good German" line, my bloodline does not have any German descent in it.

 

[ray b]

Ray, if your heritage has been part of helping build this country and you are proud to call this country "home", then you should at least need to believe in what it stands for. As far as knowing Law and Military personel, I have many family members and extended family members who risk their lives everyday to preserve what we have. Yes, I'm a Yankee and Proud of it.

I'm not saying that everyone who has ever served in a position of law enforecement has an exemplary record. There are many who have quite the opposite. However, be that as it may, I think your overall perception of these people is in no way warrented or respectful and quite frankly I think its wrong.

As far as your "good German" line, my bloodline does not have any German descent in it.

it ain't about being german, note the quotes
it is about not standing up to a government DOING WRONG
like the prewar germans did in WW2 days
it is about a good person DOING NOTHING
saying the government knows best
while the EVIL GROWS STRONGER

 

[misskitty]

By placing your "German" comments in that conotation, you basically call everyone, who has a opinion of the government and the instiution of the law, that differs from your own a nazi. I hardly think that is necessary.

The system doesn't work perfectly, there is no such thing as a perfect system. Its always trying to improve. The system is run by humans, who are falliable.

Now, if you have vaild evidence to support your argument I'd like to see it. However if you have no such evidence to back up your opinion and can only resort to throwing names and catcalls at me then there is no point in continuing this thread any further.

 

[ray b]

you would not believe nore do I have the time or the pactence to teach you
how the real world works here in miami where dead people vote,
cops kill and rob [river cops case],
most officals are for sale to the highest bidder, look at the numbers convicted
justice is for sale as all local judges
have bisness agents [bagmen]
CIA smuggles coke to fund wars, friends worked on the BLACK PLANES that did that
and that's just some of the stuff I saw go down myself and is common knowlage
the truth is stranger then fiction
paranoid no not when real government thugs point real guns at you

 

[BicycleTree]

You know, an oar is probably not much of a weapon. Many oars are 10 or 11 feet long and quite heavy--unwieldy and worse than nothing in a fight. It would be like attacking someone with a 100-pound barbell. Not going to work unless you catch them unawares.

 

[misskitty]

Ray, I know how the real world works. I face it on a consistant basis. It does not surprise me one bit how things work in Miami. However, if you dislike the policies that are in effect then run for office, get elected and change the system. Otherwise, move to some place that has a lower rate of corruption and make sure its on the seacoast. The government is set up so that it can work for you and have the best interests of the general public in mind. Its not a matter of fighting against the system and moaning and groaning about it, its about knowing the system and knowing how to make it work for you or have a lawyer who knows how to make the system work for you. Regardless that's not going to change the fact you made a big mistake by interfering withthe Coast Guard and you were dealt with accordingly. You don't have any of my sympathies as far as your situation goes. You should have known better, and if you didn't then all I can say is I hope you learned your lesson.

BicycleTree, you've got a good point. Imagine how much that would hurt being hit with an oar if someone swung it at you like a baseball bat :. Little to painful to think about. By the way, welcome to PF, its good to have you!

 

[Evo]

You know, an oar is probably not much of a weapon. Many oars are 10 or 11 feet long and quite heavy--unwieldy and worse than nothing in a fight. It would be like attacking someone with a 100-pound barbell. Not going to work unless you catch them unawares.

Hey Bart,

That's why his offense was reduced.

 

[BicycleTree]

I looked online for the manual for the Coast Guard on the use of deadly force. Couldn't find it, but I found similar for the Department of Defense:

http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/html/521056.htm

In particular, the following guideline applies to DoD personnel:
E2.1.6.4. In the case of holstered weapons, a weapon should not be removed from the holster unless there is reasonable expectation that use of the weapon may be necessary.


By these rules, if the Coast Guardsmen were in the DoD, they would have acted counter to regulations. Of course, maybe the Coast Guard has much greater authority to use deadly force than DoD personnel.