Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[nismaratwork]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but friends of Loughner had said that he underwent a dramatic change and started to unravel after beginning to abuse drugs, especially alcahol and salvia, as well as LSD, and shrooms.

As far as I am concerned, his abuse of salvia, LSD, and shrooms, was most likely the root of his mental illness. I'm kind of surprised that with all the talk about his mental illness, I haven't heard anyone make the connection.

His progressions as described isn't consistent with that conclusion, but his use of at least marijuana could have hastened the onset of schizophrenia, and worsened disorganized thought. It cannot however, have been the CAUSE of a mental illness like this. Prolonged amphetamine abuse can lead to psychosis, and yes, LSD can have rare reactions, but both tend to be PROFOUND and obvious... as well as fleeting. The rare patient who does not recover is so rare as to be nearly legendary. It happens, but if it's a result of drugs, or drugs + pre-existing mental illness? It's rarely known.

 

[Proton Soup]

None of the materials mentioned buying a gun or buying the extended magazines either and we know he had those. Nothing was found stating he knew Gifford's was going to be at Safeway or that he was going to Safeway to shoot people either. So what's your point? This is getting silly.

yes, it is silly. why are you throwing your own speculations into this thread and defending them as though they are truth?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I never thought it would be necessary to do this at Physics Forums, but apparently this thread has a slightly different 'flavor'...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion][/PLAIN]
Conversation

A conversation is communication between two or more people. Conversations are the ideal form of communication in some respects, since they allow people with different views on a topic to learn from each other. A speech, on the other hand, is an oral presentation by one person directed at a group. For a successful conversation, the partners must achieve a workable balance of contributions. A successful conversation includes mutually interesting connections between the speakers or things that the speakers know. For this to happen, those engaging in conversation must find a topic on which they both can relate to in some sense. Those engaging in conversation naturally tend to relate the other speaker's statements to themselves. They may insert aspects of their lives into their replies, to relate to the other person's opinions or points of conversation.

Conversation is indispensable for the successful accomplishment of almost all activities between people, especially the coordination of work, the formation of friendship and for learning.

Sigh...

(I’ll get back to other posts later...)

 

[Evo]

yes, it is silly. why are you throwing your own speculations into this thread and defending them as though they are truth?

My *opinion* that he might have seen Kelly's ads against Giffords. That was it.

WhooWee stated as a fact, repeatedly, that Loughner never met Kelly. First, he stated it repeatedly as a fact, and he could not back it up when asked for a source, and no one in the thread said they met, so it wasn't even on topic of what was said.

Is that enough?

 

[nismaratwork]

This comment has nothing to do with Sarah Palin as a cause or contributor to this shooting... if people use this as a springboard for that, it's going to be utterly disingenuous.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/17/palin-i-am-not-going-to-shut-up/?iref=NS1

This dumb bunny, and I think we can all agree that she's stupid, but benign... actually tried to justify the "blood libel" comment. What. A. Twit. She should have the good grace to defend herself without making the debate even MORE about this useless woman who clearly has no intent to run for any office except, 'making cash'.

If this were Boehner, or Pelosi, I'd get the need to be so forward in all of this... but Palin isn't even a politician anymore. Just use your damned judgment and think, "gosh, maybe my EIGHT MINUTE statement was enough!" Did anyone involved in this want or care to hear another interview from this fool, especially when her only message is, "I'm not going to shut up!"? Great Sarah, thrilling, but just because SOME people turned and blamed one of the most publicly polarizing figures currently in circulation is how she's making tons of money! You don't get it both ways: celebrity is unpredictable, sometimes dangerous, and often filled with lies about you. Deal with it long enough to get the injured out of the hospital.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

This comment has nothing to do with Sarah Palin

I’m very glad that you said that. Because if this comment was about Sarah Palin, you must provide *proof that holds in court*, otherwise it’s a brutal violation of the "New & Homemade PF Rules"! :grumpy:

()

 

[jreelawg]

Strangely, "Grey's Anatomy" episode 11 of season 7 entitled "disarm", which aired 2 days before the Arizona shooting, featured a plot in which a student named Jared shot 26 people at a college campus. Also, one of the main characters name is Arizona.

I wonder if Jared Loughner had watched this episode?

 

[nismaratwork]

Strangely, "Grey's Anatomy" episode 11 of season 7 entitled "disarm", which aired 2 days before the Arizona shooting, featured a plot in which a student named Jared shot 26 people at a college campus. Also, one of the main characters name is Arizona.

I wonder if Jared Loughner had watched this episode?

I believe a clear link has already been demonstrated between watching ANY Grey's Anatomy, and going on a killing spree.

 

[nismaratwork]

Oh boy... it seems that this event WAS captured on security cameras, and the Washington Post has at least seen them. They apparently include Loughner walking out of the Safeway, up to Giffords, and shooting her, shooting others, and showing John Roll (the judge) shielding a staffer with his back, and being shot and killed with a wound to the back.

It SOUNDS like this has already been released, or leaked... I can't believe that anyone involved with this was so stupid and callous; I can only hope it doesn't reach the internet.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/19/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T2

note: This above article contains comments from Giffords' husband, which are not a part of want I'm talking about.

 

[arildno]

The following is a portrait of the parents of Jared Lee Loughner.
It seems clear that they were devoted to their son, but were awkward at taking confrontations with him:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...abrielle-giffords-jared-loughner-parents.html

It is not a crime to be lenient towards your own child, but being afraid to take appropriate steps is not a very good parenting style. In rare cases (as this one is), letting one's child have too long a leash will lead to a possibly preventable tragedy.

 

[nismaratwork]

The following is a portrait of the parents of Jared Lee Loughner.
It seems clear that they were devoted to their son, but were awkward at taking confrontations with him:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...abrielle-giffords-jared-loughner-parents.html

It is not a crime to be lenient towards your own child, but being afraid to take appropriate steps is not a very good parenting style. In rare cases (as this one is), letting one's child have too long a leash will lead to a possibly preventable tragedy.

It does seem that a family already strained by an eccentric father, and generally reclusive demeanor could have benefited from being able to ask for help. It's unfortunate that they didn't, but from the time-line I wonder how long they had to realize just how bad things were getting? After all, I have no idea if the parents were internet-savvy, so they may have been more out of the loop than we'd assume.

It's sad all around: the victims can blame... what?... the actions of a man living in another crazy internal world? The family of the killer is going to be hounded until they die, and Loughner?... who knows. If he's as mentally ill as he appears, then he acted in what he believed to be rational and reasonable manners. That's the misery of psychosis: people act irrationally to us, but within the framework of their delusional world, they have no choice.

I find this entire situation sad, but nothing beats the 9 year old girl, the other 5 killed, and a bright woman shot through the head in the prime of life.

 

[arildno]

I think there are very few parents who are fully aware of what their children are doing on the internet.

Many crazy people are able to selectively contain&disclose their private rantings.

Furthermore, Jared was a bright kid from working class background. His parents may have regarded his ideas about semantics&grammar as rather incomprehensible, but that their incomprehension was more their fault (due to their lack of Education), rather than signs of madness in Jared.

 

[nismaratwork]

I think there are very few parents who are fully aware of what their children are doing on the internet.

Many crazy people are able to selectively contain&disclose their private rantings.[/]quote]

Both true, and the latter especially with DD: Disorganized type. In that, you get less ranting and rambling (at first), and more distortions in the mind of the sufferer. It's no coincidence that this type tends to be one of the rare forms of mental illness that can really fulminate and explode. He told crazy things to a lot of people, but they'd have to compare notes to realize that it was more than just pot and an emotional crisis. I'd say this is an argument for a higher standard of mental health professional in schools.

Furthermore, Jared was a bright kid from working class background. His parents may have regarded his ideas about semantics&grammar as rather incomprehensible, but that their incomprehension was more their fault (due to their lack of Education), rather than signs of madness in Jared.

Absolutely true... it seems that his father at least started to worry, but that was at the end of nearly a year at home. It's also unclear if his father was concerned about mental breakdown, or just obvious odd behaviour (shaved head, black bag with ammo , "mumbling".

I'd add: if he IS schizophrenic, then he'd still be in the midst of the emergence and development of this illness. His story is only uncommon in its tragic ending.

 

[Al68]

Oh boy... it seems that this event WAS captured on security cameras...and showing John Roll (the judge) shielding a staffer with his back, and being shot and killed with a wound to the back.

That's pretty amazing if true. That's the kind of thing that only a parent would do for their child, and rarely in any other case.

 

[nismaratwork]

That's pretty amazing if true. That's the kind of thing that only a parent would do for their child, and rarely in any other case.

It is an impressive action if he took it, although I honestly hope we never have a chance to confirm or falsify it. Those tapes do not need to be public... at least, not for quite some time.

 

[mugaliens]

This is getting silly.

Perhaps. However, in the past your use of the term "silly" has been your excuse to close a thread.

Please don't. Really.

Lot's of good conversation still happening, here. :) It deserves it's continuence.

Thank you.

 

[Al68]

Perhaps. However, in the past your use of the term "silly" has been your excuse to close a thread.

Please don't. Really.

Times 2. Perhaps we need a thread about why so many threads are locked for no apparent reason. At least no obvious reason related to forum rules.

 

[alt]

That's pretty amazing if true. That's the kind of thing that only a parent would do for their child, and rarely in any other case.

Yes, I read a detailed news article about this. When you start to feel depressed that humanity is going down the tubes, it's acts like this that somewhat restore your faith in it.

 

[nismaratwork]

Yes, I read a detailed news article about this. When you start to feel depressed that humanity is going down the tubes, it's acts like this that somewhat restore your faith in it.

I'd add, it's pretty amazing that Giffords is recovering the way she is. I realize that people hear that she'll be months in rehab (to begin with), but she's able to respond to verbal commands, move her left side without apparent effort, and seems as alert and oriented as anyone can tell given her physical limitations at the moment.

 

[Evo]

Is she getting worse,? I couldn't find an update since this came out.

Brain fluid buildup might delay Giffords’ rehab in Texas

On Friday, Giffords was flown from Tuscon to the Texas Medical Center in Houston, where she had been scheduled to enter the Institute of Rehabilitation and Research. While the transfer went smoothly, Dr. John Holcomb, one of Giffords' doctors, told reporters that the trip had been medically "stressful" for the congresswoman, who was shot in the head at point blank range two weeks ago.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20110123/ts_yblog_theticket/brain-fluid-buildup-might-delay-giffords-rehab-in-texas

Why was she moved so soon if there was risk involved?

Edit: The only update I could find is that the hospital has decided not to give updates until her condition improves and she can be moved.

Shortly after her arrival, doctors said she had been given a tube to drain a buildup of brain fluid that has kept the Arizona congresswoman in intensive care.

The Houston hospital treating Giffords gave no update Monday, and spokesman James Campbell said the next update would come when they are ready to move Giffords to the rehab hospital.

http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot

 

[WhoWee]

Why was she moved so soon if there was risk involved?

I've been wondering the same?

 

[edward]

I've been wondering the same?

That has had me wondering from when it was first announced that she would be moved. They claimed the plane would fly at low altitude. But 28,000 ft still requires pressurization and depressurization of the plane.

EDIT: I just realized the Houston isn't much above sea level. Tucson is at 2,500ft

 

[nismaratwork]

No, she is in no way regressing based on public info (only info we have!). It's very common with massive head trauma to insert a probe and drain into the ventricle to drain fluid and relieve pressure.

From the report, this has been there from the beginning (which only makes sense), and while she CAN do some things, full rehab is out of the question. Assuming her intracranial pressure doesn't begin to rise for some reason, she should have this out within days to weeks.

Again... this takes a LOOOONG time to recover from: this woman have a significant amount of her brain traumautically destroyed... there won't be a linear improvement day to day. If, if in six months, she can walk and talk that would be AMAZING. Really, nothing about her recovery is short of amazing.

I'd add, you move because rehab needs to begin IMMEDIATELY if possible, and she needed to get to a TBI center, not a hospital. The reality of brain injury is that when people recover this way, it's great because there's real hope that the person they were might be intact. On the other hand, there's no more miracle "super-speed" that can happen: her brain has to establish new pathways to perform whatever tasks have been compromised. By all accounts she can understand verbal commands, which is FANTASTIC; where she was shot it's possible she could have lost the capacity to comprehend language.

It SOUNDS as though she has some aphasia related to expression, and hopefully recognition isn't an issue.

In the end, she's alive: if she can talk, understand words, maintain bilateral control of her face, and most important: if damage to her frontal lobe has changed her.

If she's in a wheelchair, but mentally intact and able to interact with the world, and stand with assistance, it may not sound like much, but that's fantastic. Anything more would be possible, but represents a low probability that we can hope for.

 

[Evo]

No, the new swelling is a new issue nismar, it was not expected. It's a setback.

 

[mugaliens]

I'd add, you move because rehab needs to begin IMMEDIATELY if possible, and she needed to get to a TBI center...

As I recall, there's some sort of chemical "cascade" response in the brain following trauma. It's designed to protect the brain overall, but often results in the death of neurons. From what I understand, it can also be interrupted, chemically, but the first hours are critical. I don't know how that's done, but perhaps someone who knows more can share with the rest of us.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Why was she moved so soon if there was risk involved?

That has had me wondering from when it was first announced that she would be moved. They claimed the plane would fly at low altitude. But 28,000 ft still requires pressurization and depressurization of the plane.

EDIT: I just realized the Houston isn't much above sea level. Tucson is at 2,500ft

Very 'odd'...?? Pressurization, 'bad air', 'bacterial risk', different base altitude...?

 

[nismaratwork]

No, the new swelling is a new issue nismar, it was not expected. It's a setback.

A hydrocephalic reaction in the ventricles is never unexpected in a penetrating brain injury, and while it is technically a setback, it's statically nothing. You're correct that it's newly inserted, but setback?... delay maybe... although I can't say "setback" is wrong. When I think of a setback in this scenario, I think of infected CSF, runaway swelling, and herniation of the brain stem. Anything that doesn't kill or cause damage at this point should probably be placed under the rubric of "normal recovery".

Mugaliens: There are a bunch of "cascades" that occur after any traumatic injury, but the brain is really very much a closed box (with a tail), so they can become destructive very quickly. Apoptosis of damaged neurons is essential, but when they die, they release toxins (the real kind, not the "new age" variety) which in LARGE quantities over a short time... cause more self-induced cellular death (apoptosis). So, you end with a wound-track that, to protect itself from necrotic tissue... kills itself... UNLESS you're there early to dehydrate the brain (not needed in this case... which AMAZES me), or remove some skull to allow for swelling and natural (or artificial) drainage, it's trouble.

It's the neurological equivalent of massive blunt muscular trauma: the latter results the healthy response that dead and damaged muscle tissue is broken down. UNFORTUNATELY, if this happens as a result of MASSIVE trauma (faster than your body keeps up) you end with enough K in your blood to stop your heart; CaGluconate is usually a good way to treat that, but obviously the brain is more delicate and complex.

This is actually the SAME neurological process that occurs in the more common type of head injury: CLOSED head injury, not penetrating. We tend to call them, "concussions!

Remember, when a neuron dies, it doesn't just release its load of metabolic waste, then break-down further into more waste... it ALSO releases all of its neurotransmitter load! The LAST thing you want is for your heart to get the signal to beat in the wrong rhythm, or even worse, in massive trauma that dopamine, serotonin, and other good stuff causes... more cell death along the wound track for PBI. In a Concussion, it's diffuse, but this is why REPEATED concussion can drop someone as though you HAD shot them in the head.

In the end, neurons, and other cells die every day, and they need mechanisms to commit suicide and send signals to be cleaned away. Normally, this isn't a problem, but if you have a large number, especially in a small area, of this activity... trouble. This is a part of medicine for trauma... ALWAYS, but the brain and large muscles are generally the stand-outs.

edit: Whoops, I forgot the concussion animation! http://www.neuroskills.com/images/concussion.swf

 

[nismaratwork]

Very 'odd'...?? Pressurization, 'bad air', 'bacterial risk', different base altitude...?

She has a large hole in her head that wasn't there before... pressure changes make a DIFFERENCE. Bacteria in the brain make an even bigger difference: death!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

i don't know how that's done, but perhaps someone who knows more can share with the rest of us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/primary_and_secondary_brain_injury"

...

secondary injury is an indirect result of the insult. It results from processes initiated by the trauma.[5] it occurs in the hours and days following the primary injury[3][8] and plays a large role in the brain damage and death that results from tbi.[8] unlike in most forms of trauma a large percentage of the people killed by brain trauma do not die right away but rather days to weeks after the event.[9] in addition, rather than improving after being hospitalized as most patients with other types of injuries do, about 40% of people with tbi deteriorate.[10] this is often a result of secondary injury, which can damage even neurons that were unharmed in the primary injury. It occurs after a variety of brain insults including subarachnoid hemorrhage, stroke, and traumatic brain injury and involves metabolic cascades.[11]

secondary injury can result from complications of the injury.[1] these include ischemia (insufficient blood flow); cerebral hypoxia (insufficient oxygen in the brain); hypotension (low blood pressure); cerebral edema (swelling of the brain); changes in the blood flow to the brain; and raised intracranial pressure (the pressure within the skull).[1] if intracranial pressure gets too high, it can lead to deadly brain herniation, in which parts of the brain are squeezed past structures in the skull.

Other secondary insults include hypercapnia (excessive carbon dioxide levels in the blood), acidosis (excessively acidic blood),[12] meningitis, and brain abscess.[2] in addition, alterations in the release of neurotransmitters (the chemicals used by brain cells to communicate) can cause secondary injury. Imbalances in some neurotransmitters can lead to excitotoxicity, damage to brain cells that results from overactivation of biochemical receptors for excitatory neurotransmitters (those that increase the likelihood that a neuron will fire). Excitotoxicity can cause a variety of negative effects, including damage to cells by free radicals, potentially leading to neurodegeneration. Another factor in secondary injury is loss of cerebral autoregulation, the ability of the brain's blood vessels to regulate cerebral blood flow.[4] other factors in secondary damage are breakdown of the blood–brain barrier, edema, ischemia and hypoxia.[13] ischemia is one of the leading causes of secondary brain damage after head trauma.[3] similar mechanisms are involved in secondary injury after ischemia, trauma, and injuries resulting when a person does not get enough oxygen.[4] after stroke, an ischemic cascade, a set of biochemical cascades takes place.

. . .

 

[nismaratwork]

. . .

This is why that young intern is truly a hero for what he did, and why getting in the OR within 38 minutes did the rest. Remember: the first good sign was a lack of necrosis along the wound-track, and that indicates that... for better or worse, some of the cascades that normally occur did not because of the through-through nature of the injury.

Remember, TBI often = closed-head (bomb-blast, concussion, fall, *car accident)

*Most common

Example: Which actor... or Kennedy?... was it who hit a tree down a ski-slope? Anyway, she had bleeding in the vascular layer of her "brain-lining(s)", called the Arachnoid Tissue... an Arachnoid Hemorrhage. The warning you get there, other than the event itself, is possible LoC, and "Thunderclap Headache". If you ever have either, get to a hospital: you really can't know what's going on inside of your head, until it's close to "late". It's much easier to stop these cascades of cell death, swelling, herniation, metabolic crisis in the first hour, maybe a little more.

Repeated concussions... well, you can see why JUST the apoptosis could kill you... short circuit, get it? That's in addition to the lysis of cellular remains, and loss of viable tissue.

I'd also add: the toxicity experienced during methamphetamine abuse (over time of course) is nearly identical to the damage you see from dopamine releases after TBI, once you localize it. It's very spooky... I'd rather be dead than anhedonic.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Miracles do happen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage" (1823 – 1860), an American railroad construction foreman, got a large iron rod driven completely through his head!

It changed his personality (frontal lobe) and behavior, but he survived.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

She has a large hole in her head that wasn't there before... pressure changes make a DIFFERENCE. Bacteria in the brain make an even bigger difference: death!

Yes obviously... that’s why we all wonder – Why not moving the rehab team to Giffords, instead of vice versa...??

 

[nismaratwork]

Yes obviously... that’s why we all wonder – Why not moving the rehab team to Giffords, instead of instead of vice versa...??

Well, for one that team is going to work with more people than just Giffords, and it wouldn't be fair to do that. For another, this isn't just a team at a hospital, it's a TBI center that is MADE for rehab.

In the end, there is no benefit without risk here.Oh, and for Mr. Gage... a famous example, but also famously not himself... not just a change in behaviour. FORTUNATELY, Ms. Gifford's wound was NOT center-line through the prefrontal cortex, and was confined to one side of the brain.

In many cases where the forehead is damaged by impact (crush injuries often), or other more broad damage to the frontal lobe yields someone who has been robbed of impulse control, empathy... in short, you get an instant sociopath. It doesn't always happen, but of all the results, what's worse than a nearly full recovery except that now your beloved child no longer connects with people, steals on a whim, gets into fights... etc... and CANNOT be changed?

I think I'd rather die ME.

edit: It seems logical that infection would be more prevalent on a plane, than in an ICU, but in reality... not true. You're really no MORE likely to get a nasty infection than in your stay in the ICU. Part of it is the condition you're in, but part of it is the company: I'd add... this wasn't a standard plane.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I'd add... this wasn't a standard plane.

What plane was it?


()

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Well, for one that team is going to work with more people than just Giffords, and it wouldn't be fair to do that. For another, this isn't just a team at a hospital, it's a TBI center that is MADE for rehab.

In the end, there is no benefit without risk here.

Strange... how many people do you need; 1, 2, >10?? She needs training of muscles, motor skills, and 'mental training' – not a complete 'computer lab'...

Can’t this be fixed 'on location' (until the condition is 'stable') in the wealthiest country in the world, for a woman who risked her life for democracy?


Many years ago when I was very ill, and hospitalized for 8 month, and lost basically all my muscles in my legs and weighted 50 kg – I got my personal trainer, 5 min walk from home, for free...