Showing that two groups are not isomorphic

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In summary, the conversation discusses the process of showing that two groups, specifically ##\langle \mathbb{R}_{2 \pi}, +_{2 \pi} \rangle## and ##\langle \mathbb{R}, +\rangle##, are not isomorphic. The method of finding an isomorphism between two groups is mentioned, but the focus is on proving that there does not exist an isomorphism between the two groups. This is done by looking at invariants, which are properties that are preserved under isomorphisms. Examples of invariants mentioned include the number of elements in a group, the order of elements, commutativity, the center of a group, and normal subgroups. The conversation then
  • #1
Mr Davis 97
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Homework Statement


Show that ##\langle \mathbb{R}_{2 \pi}, +_{2 \pi} \rangle## is not isomorphic to ##\langle \mathbb{R}, +\rangle##

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The Attempt at a Solution


I know how to show that two groups are isomorphic: by finding an isomorphism between them. However, I am not sure how to show that there does not exist an isomorphism at all.
 
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  • #2
In general is non-existence always the hardest of all proofs. Sometimes it can be done by contradiction: assume something exists and derive a contradiction. But far more often this isn't as easy as it sounds, because the contradiction might not be as obvious or we cannot decide, whether something is really impossible or whether we're simply too stupid. A famous example is Fermat's Last Theorem, which has (rather quickly) been solved for small values of ##n## but turned out to be extremely difficult in general. Another famous example of our days is the question whether ##P \neq NP## really holds. This comes down to the question: Are there problems which are of intrinsic difficulty, or are we simply not smart enough?

Fortunately it's easier in case of groups and isomorphisms. Here we only have to look at invariants, i.e. properties which are preserved under isomorphisms. If they are different in one group from the other, then the groups cannot be isomorphic. Now a list of possible invariants:

  1. The number of elements if one group is finite or both.
  2. You can look for elements of an order, that occurs in one but not in the other group.
  3. Commutativity.
  4. The center of a group.
  5. The commutator subgroup.
  6. The set of all normal subgroups.
  7. Solvability.
  8. Nilpotency.
  9. Centralizers and normalizers.
  10. In more advanced cases: representations.
 
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  • #3
How are you defining ##\mathbb{R}_{2 \pi}## and ##+_{2 \pi}##?
 
  • #4
So, for example, if I wanted to show that the latter is not isomorphic to the former, could I just note that the equation ##z +_{2 \pi} z +_{2 \pi} z +_{2 \pi} z =0## has four solutions ##\{0,\frac{\pi}{2}, \pi, \frac{3 \pi}{2} \}##, while the equation ##x+x+x+x=0## has only one solution, ##\{ 0 \}##? And argue that if they were isomorphic then these equations should have the same number of solutions? Is this an example of an invariant you were describing?
 
  • #5
Mr Davis 97 said:
So, for example, if I wanted to show that the latter is not isomorphic to the former, could I just note that the equation ##z +_{2 \pi} z +_{2 \pi} z +_{2 \pi} z =0## has four solutions ##\{0,\frac{\pi}{2}, \pi, \frac{3 \pi}{2} \}##, while the equation ##x+x+x+x=0## has only one solution, ##\{ 0 \}##? And argue that if they were isomorphic then these equations should have the same number of solutions? Is this an example of an invariant you were describing?
Yes, #2, although I would formulate it in terms of group theory: ##\frac{\pi}{2} \in \langle \mathbb{R}_{2\pi}, +_{2\pi}\rangle ## is of order ##4## and ##\langle \mathbb{R},+\rangle ## has no elements of finite order. Can you show, that this implies ##\langle \mathbb{R}_{2\pi}, +_{2\pi}\rangle \ncong \langle \mathbb{R},+\rangle\; ##?
 
  • #6
Well, isomorphisms preserve order, right? So if there were an isomorphism, that would imply that ##\langle \mathbb{R},+\rangle## has at least one element of order 4. However, it has no elements of finite order, which means that there cannot exist an isomorphism.
 
  • #7
Mr Davis 97 said:
Well, isomorphisms preserve order, right? So if there were an isomorphism, that would imply that ##\langle \mathbb{R},+\rangle## has at least one element of order 4. However, it has no elements of finite order, which means that there cannot exist an isomorphism.
Yes, but the "work" to be done is in the first sentence. Why do they preserve the order?

Only as an addition to my first post (you have been too fast to edit it in time):
Your solution basically says: I have three elements (##\frac{\pi}{2}\, , \,\pi\, , \,\frac{2\pi}{3}##) of an order, that divides ##4##, but none of such an order in ##\langle \mathbb{R},+ \rangle\, .## (The neutral ##0## aside which is automatically of order ##1\,.##)
 
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  • #8
Bashyboy said:
How are you defining ##\mathbb{R}_{2 \pi}## and ##+_{2 \pi}##?

I hope this isn't too much of an imposition, but I am still interested in an answer to this question.
 
  • #9
Bashyboy said:
I hope this isn't too much of an imposition, but I am still interested in an answer to this question.
Addition of angles modulo ##2\pi##, I think, ##U(1)\;.##
 

1. How do you determine if two groups are isomorphic or not?

To determine if two groups are isomorphic, you must show that there exists a bijective homomorphism between them. This means that there is a one-to-one correspondence between the elements of the two groups, and the operation of the first group can be mapped to the operation of the second group in a way that preserves the group structure.

2. Can two groups with the same number of elements be non-isomorphic?

Yes, two groups can have the same number of elements but still be non-isomorphic. This is because the group structure and operation may be different, even though the number of elements is the same. For example, the cyclic group of order 4 and the Klein four-group both have 4 elements, but they are not isomorphic.

3. What are some common methods for proving two groups are not isomorphic?

There are several methods for proving two groups are not isomorphic. Some common ones include showing that the orders of the groups are different, demonstrating that the groups have different subgroups or different number of subgroups, and showing that the groups have different properties (e.g. commutative vs non-commutative).

4. Can isomorphic groups have different Cayley tables?

No, isomorphic groups must have the same Cayley tables. The Cayley table represents the group operation and structure, so if two groups are isomorphic, they must have the same Cayley table. This is why the Cayley table is a useful tool for determining whether two groups are isomorphic.

5. Is it possible for two non-isomorphic groups to have the same order?

Yes, it is possible for two non-isomorphic groups to have the same order. This is because the order of a group only tells us the number of elements in the group, but it does not provide information about the group structure or operation. For example, the symmetric group S3 and the dihedral group D3 both have 6 elements, but they are not isomorphic.

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