The latest developments in energy storage technology

[Trainee Engineering]

Hi all,

I'm interested in the latest development in battery technology. as of now, from what I understand, the most advanced tech in energy storage (battery) is created by Tesla, the PowerWall. but, even that, can only store 14kWh per unit. my house consumption is about 10kWh per day. my question is, what are the type of batteries out there available to the public? I'm only concerned of these things:
1. capacity --> I need to store 2-3 weeks worth of energy (in case of blackouts), so, it's somewhere around 140kWh - 210 kWh. if possible, I need it to be less than 10 units (so each unit is around 21kWh)
2. durability --> must be able to store huge amount of energy for a long period of time without dissipating. Now, it won't be charged and discharging frequently. charged only after a blackout, and won't be discharging until the next blackout, so storing for long time
3. warranty --> if possible, above 10 years warranty that energy leakage is less than 5%

price is not an issue. what are my options?
what's the latest type of battery suited for this type of usage?

thanks

 

[oz93666]

One 14 kWh Powerwall battery $5,500 ... that means you need to spend around $80,000 every ten years ! and there are many loopholes in the 10 year warranty.

There's nothing special in these tesla packs ... just Lithium ion batteries ... someone with moderate technical knowledge could make an equivalent for a quarter of the cost .

You could buy 10kw of solar panels for $5000 ...this would generate on average 30kwHrs /day three times your consumption ... to cover you for cloudy days , and night time consumption a modest sized battery ...the whole setup much less than $10,000...

Li -ion are the best batteries available for what you want (long life compactness) ...lead acid are still the most cost effective.

 

[Trainee Engineering]

One 14 kWh Powerwall battery $5,500 ... that means you need to spend around $80,000 every ten years ! and there are many loopholes in the 10 year warranty.

There's nothing special in these tesla packs ... just Lithium ion batteries ... someone with moderate technical knowledge could make an equivalent for a quarter of the cost .

You could buy 10kw of solar panels for $5000 ...this would generate on average 30kwHrs /day three times your consumption ... to cover you for cloudy days , and night time consumption a modest sized battery ...the whole setup much less than $10,000...

Li -ion are the best batteries available for what you want (long life compactness) ...lead acid are still the most cost effective.

ok, when you put it that way...
for solar panel? what's the price per wp now?

 

[oz93666]

Alibaba $0.4 /W or less delivered to a port of your choosing ... Solar industry is a big rip off , companies make a big mark up for re selling these panels and putting them on your roof or land ... I bought 5KW about 4 years ago at $0.5 /W , alibaba ... I had to pick them up at the port , no taxes where I am ... prices have dropped a lot since then ... Philippines government just bought a GW @ $ 0.2 /W including inverters ! ... panels are just sand and a bit of silver ...dirt cheap to make ...

It depends if you want to do it all yourself , if you do , 10kw with off grid inverter and batteries less than $10K ...

If you get a company to install everything ...no idea ... will depend on country , but if they give you a high price you can tell them the price of panels and inverters on alibaba don't let companies tell you their panels are better quality , they're all the same , the panels will still deliver 75% even after 25 years , inverters, many different types , best to buy good quality one ... Any schoolboy could wire it up for you , ideally put the panels on open land , easier to clean than on a roff.
https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=solar+panel

 

[Vanadium 50]

If you regularly have blackouts lasting weeks, I wouldn't be thinking about an $80,000 storage device. I'd be thinking about a $5000 gas generator.

 

[mfb]

If you regularly have blackouts lasting weeks, I wouldn't be thinking about an $80,000 storage device. I'd be thinking about a $5000 gas generator.

I found a 700 W generator for less than $150, and 2 kW for less than $1000. An additional battery for peak loads (cooking) and smoothing out the gas generator load should be around $1000.

If you want to avoid CO2 emissions, you can buy a gas generator plus a small-scale photovoltaic/battery system that covers most of your electricity consumption but does not have to cover it all.

 

[Trainee Engineering]

interesting, first time hearing about gas generator. so, how much kwH per kg of gas? anybody has experience with these gas generators? or perhaps can point me to some links?
I don't mind CO2 emissions since this is not going to be used frequently, only during blackouts, which usually lasts less than 3 weeks in a year (in total)

 

[Trainee Engineering]

after some researching, both diesel and gas generators will cost more to generate 1 kWh compared to electricity price from the grid (I guess that's to be expected).
now, between gas, gasoline and diesel generator, what's the most recommended?
my requirements:
1. be able to run in long period of time (24 hours non stop if possible)
2. for household use (around 2kW)
3. not too noisy (residential area)
4. efficiency (most kwH generated per unit of $$ resource needed)

not too worried about air pollution since I'll be putting the generator on open space on 3rd floor

Thanks

 

[mfb]

~2 kWh/liter look realistic. A bit more per kilogram as it is lighter than water. At ~$1/liter that makes 50 cents/kWh (more expensive than from the grid - not surprising). 10kWh/day over 3 weeks is 210 kWh, or ~$100 in fuel costs for a single 3-week blackout.

If you combine a 2 kW generator with a small battery, you can run it at 50% load for 10 hours a day - during the night the battery is sufficient to power the fridge and so on.

Just for longer blackouts, the gas generator is probably the cheapest option. Photovoltaics would also deliver energy the rest of the year, of course, that should be taken into account.

 

[Vanadium 50]

after some researching, both diesel and gas generators will cost more to generate 1 kWh compared to electricity price from the grid

Of course. But like you say, it's 3 weeks out of the year. And during those 3 weeks you don't have a grid option.

You need to think about the load, and the source of fuel. If you have natural gas to your house already, and if it is still delivered during blackouts. that's a much simpler option than storing fuel.

 

[mheslep]

after some researching, both diesel and gas generators will cost more to generate 1 kWh compared to electricity price from the grid (I guess that's to be expected)...

Without subsidies, all alternatives cost more than grid power in the mainland US.

 

[mheslep]

I found a 700 W generator for less than $150, and 2 kW for less than $1000. An additional battery for peak loads (cooking) and smoothing out the gas generator load should be around $1000...

Installation (connection to the home electrical service box with a switchover) and a natural gas utility connection is at least $1500.

 

[rbelli1]

One of the new quiet Honda inverter units is a good option as they are surprisingly (shockingly?) quiet. They are pricey but worth the money. There are less expensive (by about half) alternatives with equivalent specs but I have no experience or other knowledge about them.

is at least $1500.

Is that for an auto-switch-over or manual?

BoB

 

[mheslep]

One of the new quiet Honda inverter units is a good option as they are surprisingly (shockingly?) quiet. They are pricey but worth the money. There are less expensive (by about half) alternatives with equivalent specs but I have no experience or other knowledge about them.
Is that for an auto-switch-over or manual?

BoB

Auto. I think the equipment (transfer switch) cost is relatively inexpensive compared to the labor. Most of the cost is labor, i.e. licensed electrician.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Most of the cost is labor, i.e. licensed electrician.

There's the rub. In the UK the regs are very tight and you need to be part of 'the system' and be part of the feed in tariff arrangement. The approved installers charge a fortune and the government incentives for green energy are reducing.
Any alternative approach to a 230V standby supply in UK homes is really not on the cards, I reckon.

 

[mfb]

Three weeks of grid outage per year in the UK? I doubt that. We are probably talking about a developing country.

 

[mheslep]

Or, six weeks of half power from a solar array cloaked in a UK would require the three weeks of battery backup.

 

[CWatters]

https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...me-can-increase-energy-consumption-emissions/

Storing solar energy in the home can increase energy consumption, emissions

Storing solar energy for nighttime use is less green than just sending it straight to the grid

It seems to be suggesting that if you send excess solar PV to the grid then all of the electricity generated is used to reducing C02 emissions. Whereas if you store it in a battery and use it yourself later then some is lost in the charging efficiency. So overall it's greener NOT to use a solar PV backup battery.

 

[mfb]

It seems to be suggesting that if you send excess solar PV to the grid then all of the electricity generated is used to reducing C02 emissions.

Depends on where you are. As an example, on a very sunny day in Germany photovoltaics produces so much that there are no additional CO2 savings - no fossil fuel power plant gets shut down if you dump even more power from photovoltaics into the grid.

 

[russ_watters]

after some researching, both diesel and gas generators will cost more to generate 1 kWh compared to electricity price from the grid (I guess that's to be expected).

Sure, but that is a different question than what you were asking in the OP. In the OP you asked about emergency energy storage, not full time grid replacement (which would be illegal with a generator and only semi-legal with solar...and, by the way, solar is generally illegal to use for emergency power).

The comparison of a generator to battery backup is a no-brainer: your requirement is for about 30 gallons of gas, costing about $80 (or $800 over 10 years if you use it once a year) versus a battery pack costing $80,000.

Another option is natural gas/methane if you have a connection to that already. It is much cheaper than gasoline (roughly 1/3 the cost) and is not subject to outages like electricity is -- it would pretty much only go down during a zombie apocalypse or giant meteor impact.

 

[Rive]

...the most advanced tech in energy storage (battery) is created by Tesla, the PowerWall

That is just the one with the most widely spreaded marketing.

The capacity you seek is simply not practical. If it's about emergency backup/operation, then usually a combination of battery and generator is used. The battery provides short time/low load backup, while generator provides long term/high load backup.
Solar panels for this purpose (emergency backup) are generally not used.

If it's some private/low cost stuff, then the main problem is to get/build a control which is switching between the various sources, monitors the UPS load/charge level and can start the generator if needed (and prevents any possible collision between the generator and the grid).

As I recall there are (relative) small scale compact/professional backup systems as well, but I has little experience with them.

 

[Trainee Engineering]

Three weeks of grid outage per year in the UK? I doubt that. We are probably talking about a developing country.

correct. I'm currently stationed in Asian country where there's a yearly flood during rainy season. so, if there's a flood, the electric company will shut down the grid to prevent electrocution.

Sure, but that is a different question than what you were asking in the OP. In the OP you asked about emergency energy storage, not full time grid replacement (which would be illegal with a generator and only semi-legal with solar...and, by the way, solar is generally illegal to use for emergency power).

The comparison of a generator to battery backup is a no-brainer: your requirement is for about 30 gallons of gas, costing about $80 (or $800 over 10 years if you use it once a year) versus a battery pack costing $80,000.

Another option is natural gas/methane if you have a connection to that already. It is much cheaper than gasoline (roughly 1/3 the cost) and is not subject to outages like electricity is -- it would pretty much only go down during a zombie apocalypse or giant meteor impact.

correct, but after if the price is right, I'm open to switching completely to solar power. btw, using solar as backup power is not illegal here. for methane generator, how much gas to generate 1kWh for the standard generator? they're still using 12kg LPG bottles here

 

[russ_watters]

correct, but after if the price is right, I'm open to switching completely to solar power. btw, using solar as backup power is not illegal here. for methane generator, how much gas to generate 1kWh for the standard generator?

What I did for gasoline works for the methane: Take the energy density and assume 25% efficiency. Not sure what volume units you need, but methane has an energy density of 10.5 kWh per cubic meter...

 

[Trainee Engineering]

What I did for gasoline works for the methane: Take the energy density and assume 25% efficiency. Not sure what volume units you need, but methane has an energy density of 10.5 kWh per cubic meter...

hmm, cubic meter (volume)? they're using 12kg (weight) LPG gas bottles here

 

[mheslep]

hmm, cubic meter (volume)? they're using 12kg (weight) LPG gas bottles here

LPG is ... liquefied (mostly). Higher energy density.

 

[mfb]

Various websites give values of about 13-15 kWh per kg, with 25% efficiency that is 3-4 kWh/kg. More than the value of 2 kWh/kg I found earlier, the 25% might be optimistic.

 

[anorlunda]

full time grid replacement (which would be illegal with a generator and only semi-legal with solar...and, by the way, solar is generally illegal to use for emergency power).

I'm lost Russ. What legalities do you mean?

 

[russ_watters]

I'm lost Russ. What legalities do you mean?

My understanding is that connected systems are not allowed to operate if grid power goes out because of safety and/or synchronization issues...though I guess there must be a way around it if you have a battery backup.
http://thirdsunsolar.com/does-solar-work-in-a-blackout/

 

[sophiecentaur]

by the way, solar is generally illegal to use for emergency power)

At first sight, that seems a very unreasonable regulation but the safety precautions that would be necessary would bring the requirements for a local domestic system into the same category as for a small commercial power station. (Speaking for UK alone.)
The circuitry for a PV system is much more amenable to running an emergency system safely.
From the recent posts on this thread, it is clear that there is a big range of requirements amongst PF members. The number of times that a complete emergency supply of your own would be needed in most of the UK and few that some battery operated LED lamps and a small petrol generator could take care of lighting, refrigeration and power for gas or oil central heating. The economics of that would make it a no brainer for most people.

 

[anorlunda]

My understanding is that connected systems are not allowed to operate if grid power goes out because of safety and/or synchronization issues...though I guess there must be a way around it if you have a battery backup.
http://thirdsunsolar.com/does-solar-work-in-a-blackout/

It is certainly true that neighbors are not allowed to casually pool together to make a micro grid. For example running an extension cord to the next door neighbor. I think that's what you meant. The operative word is connected. However some well engineered micro grids have been approved to supply an entire neighborhood.

But lots of people live off the grid permanently, and legally.

Also, people with their own power generation can and do legally connect to the grid via an approved interface device which include a transfer switch to assure that you won't backfeed the grid. In other words, they stay disconnected, from the outside world.

 

[russ_watters]

It is certainly true that neighbors are not allowed to casually pool together to make a micro grid. For example running an extension cord to the next door neighbor. I think that's what you meant.

No, it isn't what I meant: most individual houses that have their own panels cannot use them if the normal commercial grid goes down.

But lots of people live off the grid permanently, and legally.

I'm not sure what qualifies as "lots", but certainly the vast majority of people with solar panels are connected to the grid. And there at least used to be some municipalities with backwards codes that wouldn't recognize the solar array and would not allow permanently disconnecting from the local power co.

Also, people with their own power generation can and do legally connect to the grid via an approved interface device which include a transfer switch to assure that you won't backfeed the grid. In other words, they stay disconnected, from the outside world.

Some, yes, but most do not have equipment for that and cannot use their solar panels in a blackout.

 

[russ_watters]

hmm, cubic meter (volume)? they're using 12kg (weight) LPG gas bottles here

By "LPG" do you really mean propane or liquefied petroleum gas?

http://www.elgas.com.au/blog/350-propane-lpg-whats-what

 

[Trainee Engineering]

By "LPG" do you really mean propane or liquefied petroleum gas?

http://www.elgas.com.au/blog/350-propane-lpg-whats-what

according to the source, the main components are propane (C3H8) and butane (C4H10)

 

[anorlunda]

No, it isn't what I meant: most individual houses that have their own panels cannot use them if the normal commercial grid goes down.

I'm not sure what qualifies as "lots", but certainly the vast majority of people with solar panels are connected to the grid. And there at least used to be some municipalities with backwards codes that wouldn't recognize the solar array and would not allow permanently disconnecting from the local power co.

Some, yes, but most do not have equipment for that and cannot use their solar panels in a blackout.

Those are pretty extraordinary claims Russ. The backup power industry and the residential solar power industry would be very surprised to hear that.

I'm going to have to call for your source. Name one verifiable municipal ordinance or code anywhere that says what you claim.

I think that you will find the opposite. Residential solar (or generator, battery, wind, or hydro) grid connection equipment are not forbidden to disconnect from the grid in a blackout, they are mandated to do so. You say that most solar owners are grid connected but do not have that grid interface equipment. I say that they are mandated to have it for grid safety reasons.

 

[Rive]

Those are pretty extraordinary claims Russ.

Not really. It's just not told with the right terms.

To spare on the local storage costs most household PV installations are feeding their power back to the grid daytime.
Due grid safety reasons the local DC-AC converters required to shut down in case the grid is down.
To enforce this kind of shut down the type of inverters which are allowed to be connected is usually limited to specific types.

So: general household PV installations won't be usable during blackout, since they shut down themselves.Backup power is a different business, with its own ways.
Due safety reasons local grids with backup should be built with easily recognizable, separate way than the 'normal' grid. So one will know that they won't be down during a power outage.

Now, what the OP suggested is a 'backup', so: a local grid which does not shut down, but with PV feed-in. However, since it's also a PV installation, with the common equipment it'll try to feeding back to the grid, so it's required to shut down during outage.
This way, it's a complete mess.

To the OP: give up with solar, and you will find plenty of equipment for this. Or go with solar and prepare for the eternal suffer...