Understanding the Evacuation of Gaza Strip: An In-Depth Discussion

[arildno]

There was already Jewish settlement in Palestine. I do not think ethnic cleansing is a solution to genocide. Furthermore, many German Jews are even today unwilling to set foot on German soil or speak a word of German.

I said expelled, not cleansed.
The Jews did NOT have any sort of right to claim a land already inhabited by other persons, but the German nation&population majority had certainly acted in such an atrocious manner towards the Jews that they deserved to be PUNISHED for their barbarity. They were not, in my opinion. And that is a great shame.

 

[TRCSF]

How cynical, and still untrue.

Yeah, well, the UN doesn't think so.

 

[Yonoz]

But after following this issue since the late 70's, I have come to the conclusion that perhaps Israel should never have been allowed to come into existence.

This very statement provides enough reason for me. The fact that even today some view it as illegitimate for Israel to exist is the best case for its support.

Truman was not a great supporter.

So what?

Who was pushing the collective guilt issue.

I guess it was all those Jews who were persecuted over the course of the European history.

Was Europe happy just to finally be able to" get rid of" them once and for all. The reality is that Jews were not well liked in Europe...why? I'm too young to know.

Maybe it's time you started finding out.

If the claim that Israel was given by god is the only proof of claim, then we are all lost.
Even most religons and theologians now accept the first testament as a "cute" little series of myths and nothing more.
If we all started staking claim using similar criteria we would all wind up back in the trees.

Israel was established by secular Jews, nothing to do with religion. Fact is, it was a forsaken piece of land in a decaying empire when the first settlers came there.

The high level of US and British financial support for Israel seems to me somewhat unatural, as is the great Israeli lie about nuclear technology.

What do you mean by "unnatural"? Do you mean the US and UK, often attacked in this forum for supporting totalitarian regimes, are wrong to support the only democracy in the Middle East?

Why why why...Oil Oil Oil...Control Control Control.

That's a very nice collection of words, but that is all it is really. The support of Israel is costing the US a lot more than it is gaining in the matter of oil and the all other buzzwords thrown around in these arguments. In case you didn't know: Israel is the only country in the Middle East that produces no oil. Not a single barrel. It did once, but it gave its only oil wells - an unimginably strategically valuable resource - to Egypt, in exchange for peace - nothing else. Are you still surprised at the US and British support of Israel?

 

[Yonoz]

Yeah, well, the UN doesn't think so.

Why don't you start being a little more specific?

 

[TRCSF]

Why don't you start being a little more specific?

I'm saying that the UN considers the Israeli settlements to be an affront to the peace process and violation of international law.

 

[TRCSF]

That's a very nice collection of words, but that is all it is really. The support of Israel is costing the US a lot more than it is gaining in the matter of oil and the all other buzzwords thrown around in these arguments. In case you didn't know: Israel is the only country in the Middle East that produces no oil. Not a single barrel. It did once, but it gave its only oil wells - an unimginably strategically valuable resource - to Egypt, in exchange for peace - nothing else. Are you still surprised at the US and British support of Israel?

So you're saying that the U.S. is supporting Israel at great expense for purely humanitarian purposes?

 

[Yonoz]

I said expelled, not cleansed.

Expelling an ethnic group from their land to make room for another ethnic group is ethnic cleansing.

The Jews did NOT have any sort of right to claim a land already inhabited by other persons,

That land was very sparsely inhabited, and it is unjust to disallow someone to purchase and settle upon a piece of land simply because they're Jewish. No Jews came and kicked out local inhabitants - they always settled on bought or unclaimed land and never acted violently against anyone until they were forced to defend.

but the German nation&population majority had certainly acted in such an atrocious manner towards the Jews that they deserved to be PUNISHED for their barbarity. They were not, in my opinion. And that is a great shame.

You cannot punish an entire group for the actions of its individuals, even though I agree they are guilty as a population as well as individually. It is collective punishment and forbidden by the Geneva Convention.

 

[Wardw]

Israel was established by secular Jews, nothing to do with religion. Fact is, it was a forsaken piece of land in a decaying empire when the first settlers came there.

Well, if it was an empire, decaying or not, does that not mean that it belonged to someone else??

 

[Yonoz]

As for Israel displacing Palestinians, I was under the impression that's what this whole thing started with.

I'm saying that the UN considers the Israeli settlements to be an affront to the peace process and violation of international law.

Those are two very different statements. You should phrase your statements a little more accurately.

 

[Wardw]

I guess it was all those Jews who were persecuted over the course of the European history.

So you are saying that all persecuted peoples over the course of history have a "god given" right to stake a claim wherever they wish.
Where do I fill in the forms.

 

[Yonoz]

So you're saying that the U.S. is supporting Israel at great expense for purely humanitarian purposes?

No, I'm rebutting Wardw's partially constructed, overly suggestive claim that the US and UK support Israel to control oil in some way.

Why why why...Oil Oil Oil...Control Control Control.

 

[Yonoz]

Well, if it was an empire, decaying or not, does that not mean that it belonged to someone else??

Are you saying Israel belongs to Turkey?

 

[Wardw]

This very statement provides enough reason for me. The fact that even today some view it as illegitimate for Israel to exist is the best case for its support.

And I did not say I viewed it as illegitimate to exist. It exists and will continue to do so. I said that I doubted that it should heve been allowed to come into existence.

 

[arildno]

That land was very sparsely inhabited, and it is unjust to disallow someone to purchase and settle upon a piece of land simply because they're Jewish. No Jews came and kicked out local inhabitants - they always settled on bought or unclaimed land and never acted violently against anyone until they were forced to defend.
.

This is a bunch of lies.

 

[Lisa!]

I said expelled, not cleansed.
The Jews did NOT have any sort of right to claim a land already inhabited by other persons, but the German nation&population majority had certainly acted in such an atrocious manner towards the Jews that they deserved to be PUNISHED for their barbarity. They were not, in my opinion. And that is a great shame.

I agree with you.I heard and read lots of stories about how Hitler behaved towards Jews, but I can't see why Palestinians have to pay for what he did.

 

[Wardw]

That land was very sparsely inhabited, and it is unjust to disallow someone to purchase and settle upon a piece of land simply because they're Jewish. No Jews came and kicked out local inhabitants - they always settled on bought or unclaimed land and never acted violently against anyone until they were forced to defend.

Tell that to the refugees in camps scattered around neighbouring countries that will never be allowed back into the land in which they were born.

 

[Yonoz]

So you are saying that all persecuted peoples over the course of history have a "god given" right to stake a claim wherever they wish.

No. You asked (I assume, you didn't end the sentence with a question mark but it's contructed like a question) "Who was pushing the collective guilt", as if some party pushed the UN General Assembly to approve the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states. Again, you seem to fit god into it, for whatever reason.
Israel is the only Jewish State. There was no Jewish state at the time of the partition. I do believe that persecuted ethnic groups should have their own states, the location of which is a separate matter.
You also seem to ignore my explanations as to the geographical location of this state - it is very frustrating to go over the same reasoning several times. If you wish to discuss this matter I suggest you keep up with my argument.

Where do I fill in the forms.

It's most humiliating to conduct a discussion while my national (and personal) tragedies are being mocked.

 

[Yonoz]

And I did not say I viewed it as illegitimate to exist. It exists and will continue to do so. I said that I doubted that it should heve been allowed to come into existence.

Those are one and the same.

 

[Wardw]

Are you saying Israel belongs to Turkey?

No, most of it belongs to Israel now. I said that it belongED (past tense) to someone else at the time it was "settled". Something that you acknowledged in an earlier post

 

[Yonoz]

I heard and read lots of stories about how Hitler behaved towards Jews, but I can't see why Palestinians have to pay for what he did.

They shouldn't, and no one ever asked them to.

 

[Yonoz]

No, most of it belongs to Israel now. I said that it belongED (past tense) to someone else at the time it was "settled". Something that you acknowledged in an earlier post

It was part of the Ottoman Empire - that does not imply anything about the ownership of the land there. Are all lands in Brasil owned by the Brasilian government?
This discussion is predictably going in the direction of Israel's right of existence. Anyone interested in going back to the original topic?

 

[Wardw]

Are all lands in Brasil owned by the Brasilian government?

Who knows. I'm not Brasilian

 

[Burnsys]

Who knows. I'm not Brasilian

Actualy a large part of the brazilian rain forest is owner now by Gerogia Pacific, Texaco ,Unocal ,and another multinational corporations.

 

[jaap de vries]

The palestinian issue is ultimately responsible for half the problems in the world today, including 9-11. No pain no gain. It is good to see the Israeli side give in a little and let's hope that this will be the beginning of a process in which both sides will be willing to sacrifice some for the greater good. Solving the palestinian issue is far more important than Iraq!

 

[arildno]

You cannot punish an entire group for the actions of its individuals, even though I agree they are guilty as a population as well as individually. It is collective punishment and forbidden by the Geneva Convention.

Didn't the average German deserve to be punished for raising his kids to feel contempt for Jews and rejoice in that their Great Fuehrer was solving the problem for them?

By actively fostering anti-semitism within their own homes, neighboorhoods and workplaces, the overwhelming majority of german adults certainly deserved to be taught a lesson after WW2.
To be displaced from their homes and make them search for a new life elsewhere would have been a suitable punishment for them, in my opinion.

 

[Wardw]

The palestinian issue is ultimately responsible for half the problems in the world today, including 9-11. No pain no gain. It is good to see the Israeli side give in a little and let's hope that this will be the beginning of a process in which both sides will be willing to sacrifice some for the greater good. Solving the palestinian issue is far more important than Iraq!

Never a truer word spoken. However I don't think that they are "giving". Sharon himself said that this was to reduce military spending..I read that the ratio was 4 soldiers to one resident.

 

[TRCSF]

No, I'm rebutting Wardw's partially constructed, overly suggestive claim that the US and UK support Israel to control oil in some way.

Alright, so then what is the reason?

 

[Smurf]

By actively fostering anti-semitism within their own homes, neighboorhoods and workplaces, the overwhelming majority of german adults certainly deserved to be taught a lesson after WW2.
To be displaced from their homes and make them search for a new life elsewhere would have been a suitable punishment for them, in my opinion.

Germany was forced to scede land to Poland and (a tiny bit) Denmark after ww2. I don't see the creation of an independant state out of it as an entirely unreasonable idea. However I don't think we should force everyone in this area to move. That's down right dispicable, especially since it's only a select portion of the population by complete chance they were there. Very unfair.

I think the main flaw in creating a Jewish 'state' was that you were searching for somewhere to put a state where you can make Jews the majority, which was simply impossible at the time (as it would be today) without forcing massive amounts of people to move, and then massively encouraging people of Jewish faith to move there. This is why the creation of an Israeli state was corrupt from the very beginning.

It was an unreasonable idea that should never have left the drawing board and only did so because there was so much sympathy in the Empires after the holocaust. It's certainly interesting to wonder why it did and how many people were pulling strings to get it done. I mean, why not create a state for the other groups that were prosecuted by the Nazi's. We mine as well have a Jahova's Witness state, and a homosexual's state (Now taking wagers ). Same situation in the end though. Unfortunately.

 

[Wardw]

Didn't the average German deserve to be punished for raising his kids to feel contempt for Jews and rejoice in that their Great Fuehrer was solving the problem for them?

By actively fostering anti-semitism within their own homes, neighboorhoods and workplaces, the overwhelming majority of german adults certainly deserved to be taught a lesson after WW2.
To be displaced from their homes and make them search for a new life elsewhere would have been a suitable punishment for them, in my opinion.

You know Arildno, I've thought a lot about this issue and it seems that a lot of otherwise good people got caught up in supporting something that they would normally not have done. I think that peer group pressure and the mob instinct both had a hand in it.

I have come to the conclusion that it was a historical phenomenon that, unless one was there at the time may be hard to really explain. I'm only 44 and I have met many lovely older German people that would no doubt have participated but still have trouble explaining why they did.
No doubt that Hitler came across as a prophet to some, charisma ++.
So no, I don't think that the German people should have been collectively punished after the war, that is too abstract. And to be honest I think everybody should stop apologising for all that happened. It was too long ago and it was done by our fathers and grandfathers, not us, I have no guilt.

 

[Smurf]

I read that the ratio was 4 soldiers to one resident.

Yes, they're sending 4 soldiers for every colonist who refuses to leave, to physically remove them.

 

[Wardw]

t was an unreasonable idea that should never have left the drawing board and only did so because there was so much sympathy in the Empires after the holocaust. It's certainly interesting to wonder why it did and how many people were pulling strings to get it done. I mean, why not create a state for the other groups that were prosecuted by the Nazi's. We mine as well have a Jahova's Witness state, and a homosexual's state (Now taking wagers ). Same situation in the end though. Unfortunately.

thank you for echoing my words Smurf. So I am not a mad voice in the wilderness after all

 

[Wardw]

Yes, they're sending 4 soldiers for every colonist who refuses to leave, to physically remove them.

No I meant 4 soldiers to protect every resident, hence the high cost

 

[Yonoz]

It was too long ago and it was done by our fathers and grandfathers, not us, I have no guilt.

And yet you think Israel should all but destroy itself for something that happened before the holocaust, simply because the victims weren't exterminated.
Good night, it's nice to know how quickly you forget your own nations' misdeeds and start lecturing others.

 

[Smurf]

You know Arildno, I've thought a lot about this issue and it seems that a lot of otherwise good people got caught up in supporting something that they would normally not have done. I think that peer group pressure and the mob instinct both had a hand in it.

I'm highly suspicious of anyone who says that they had no Idea what was going on, or that they didn't have any choice in the matter. It just seems a little too convenient to raise your hand and say "I didn't know" or some such. (I'm not saying they don't exist, just suspicious)

No doubt that Hitler came across as a prophet to some, charisma ++.
So no, I don't think that the German people should have been collectively punished after the war, that is too abstract.

Which is fascinating if you've ever studied his behavior. Now-a-day's he'd hardly seem Charismatic at all, and would probably be largely regarded as a lunatic the way he talked and acted.

 

[Bilal]

I surprise from ignorance of some members here!

- Palestinian are nation not just Muslims (20% of Palestinian are Christian in 1948; also we have some Palestinian Jews).
- Europe did not like the Jews so they decided to create national homeland in Palestine. Jews illegal immigration started in 1917 by the support of UK, and it was increased after 2WW. In other words, Jews were less than 5% of the total population of Palestine before 1917; most of them were refugees from Russia (1870-1882).
- Zionist organizations started ethic cleansing against Palestinian people by destroying 550 Palestinian towns and replacing them by Jews settlements.
- Zionists continue their strategy to expand their homeland by invading the rest of Palestine in 1967, they kicked out 1 million Palestinian and they started to build settlements in West Bank, Gaza and Syrian Golan heights.
- All the governmental land and the houses of refugees are stolen and given for settlers.
- No Palestinian refugees is allowed to return, even the Palestinian citizens are under huge pressure to immigrate. It is enough to say that there are 100000 Palestinian families are divided in and out Palestine. The Israeli do not let them to live together. You can see thousands of Palestinian kids in Jordan who can not visit their father or mother in Palestine?
- Those settlers are the ultra extremist Jews who believe that Palestinian should be forced to leave what called the Promised Land or to die. Their Rabbi already allowed them to steal the Palestinian crops and to kill as many as possible to force them to leave.
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What about Gaza:

Palestine (Israel + WB+Gaza) is 27000 Km2

Occupied land after 1967:

West Bank: 5700 Km2, population: 1.8 million + 36000 settlers
Gaza: 360 Km2: population 1.3 millions + 8000 settlers

By simple calculations:

The Zionists withdraw only from 1.7% of Palestine and from 6% of occupied land after 1967! Less than 3% of illegal settlers are forced to leave ...

More...

Israel still controls the sea coast of Gaza, the air, water resources and border!

1.8 Palestinian are living in 360 Km2 isolated by Israeli military camps and without any control to their coast, borders, resources and space, is that homeland or the largest jail in the world?