Understanding the Evacuation of Gaza Strip: An In-Depth Discussion

[Smurf]

thank you for echoing my words Smurf. So I am not a mad voice in the wilderness after all

Oh is that what you were saying? I havn't really been reading too deeply the last page or so. Just thought I'd give my 2 cents on the last few comments. The Israeli idea was really such a botch by the British, and then by the Yanks too.

 

[arildno]

Germany was forced to scede land to Poland and (a tiny bit) Denmark after ww2.

And a very good thing that was!
I don't see the creation of an independant state out of it as an entirely unreasonable idea.

However I don't think we should force everyone in this area to move. That's down right dispicable, especially since it's only a select portion of the population by complete chance they were there. Very unfair.

That happened in Eastern Prussia&Schlesien (the parts ceded to Poland&Soviet Union).
Despicable it might have been; however, it is a lot less despicable than to force out a population who had nothing to do with the Holocaust in the first place , just because the Europeans were still anti-semitic enough to dislike the idea of an independent, Jewish state in the middle of European heartland.
The average German had a lot more on his conscience than the average Palestinian. That was basically my point..

I think the main flaw in creating a Jewish 'state' was that you were searching for somewhere to put a state where you can make Jews the majority, which was simply impossible at the time (as it would be today) without forcing massive amounts of people to move, and then massively encouraging people of Jewish faith to move there. This is why the creation of an Israeli state was corrupt from the very beginning.

Can't disagree with you there..

 

[Smurf]

Europe did not like the Jews so they decided to create national homeland in Palestine. Jews illegal immigration started in 1917 by the support of UK, and it was increased after 2WW. In other words, Jews were less than 5% of the total population of Palestine before 1917; most of them were refugees from Russia (1870-1882).

:rofl: Bilal you're a gem. That's true and I hadn't even thought about that before now, although I'm not sure how it's related (if at all), it's certainly a point to study.

 

[stoned]

Ok let's throw this into the ring and see who bites.
Firstly, I am not anti semetic, let's get that clear..

Yes, it is very very hard to criticize Israel or even oppose their actions without being called anti-semitic or nazi.
Many people found the hard way.

 

[Wardw]

Which is fascinating if you've ever studied his behavior. Now-a-day's he'd hardly seem Charismatic at all, and would probably be largely regarded as a lunatic the way he talked and acted.

Too true Smurf, but I put that down to what I call "cultural intelligence".
By that I mean that people at that time were far more naive as a culture than we are today.

 

[Wardw]

Yes, it is very very hard to criticize Israel or even oppose their actions without being called anti-semitic or nazi.
Many people found the hard way.

Yea, and I'm surprised that the hate mail has not started yet. I've said it before, there is a difference between being anti semitic and anti Israeli.

 

[Wardw]

And yet you think Israel should all but destroy itself for something that happened before the holocaust, simply because the victims weren't exterminated.
Good night, it's nice to know how quickly you forget your own nations' misdeeds and start lecturing others.

NO, not destroy itself, I have never advocated that. If only they would go back to the pre 1967 borders, that would solve most of the problems overnight.

 

[Smurf]

And a very good thing that was!
I don't see the creation of an independant state out of it as an entirely unreasonable idea.
That happened in Eastern Prussia&Schlesien (the parts ceded to Poland&Soviet Union).

True. But I don't think we should be borrowing Morals from ww1-era where chemical weapons were still being used and international rules of war were still regarded as quite radical.

Despicable it might have been; however, it is a lot less despicable than to force out a population who had nothing to do with the Holocaust in the first place , just because the Europeans were still anti-semitic enough to dislike the idea of an independent, Jewish state in the middle of European heartland.

Indeed, I think it may have been guilt too, like: We don't like Jews, but look what just happened to them! I don't want them in my country but I don't think they should be killed! That's horrible.. blah blah.

The average German had a lot more on his conscience than the average Palestinian. That was basically my point..

Well that's debatable, but yeah the Palestinians really did nothing so that was definitely unnecessary. It would certainly have been an interesting change to History had that happened.

 

[arildno]

You know Arildno, I've thought a lot about this issue and it seems that a lot of otherwise good people got caught up in supporting something that they would normally not have done. I think that peer group pressure and the mob instinct both had a hand in it.

I have come to the conclusion that it was a historical phenomenon that, unless one was there at the time may be hard to really explain. I'm only 44 and I have met many lovely older German people that would no doubt have participated but still have trouble explaining why they did.
No doubt that Hitler came across as a prophet to some, charisma ++.
So no, I don't think that the German people should have been collectively punished after the war, that is too abstract. And to be honest I think everybody should stop apologising for all that happened. It was too long ago and it was done by our fathers and grandfathers, not us, I have no guilt.

It was a war going on. In the aftermath, bad things are bound to happen.
If a few million Germans would have had to restart their lives as free men&women elsewhere in Germany, I really can't regard this as too severe a punishment.

 

[Bilal]

Did you ever know that Bethlehem, where Jesus born, is Palestinian Christian city, the same as Beit Sahour and Beit Jala?

If Koran ask to give USA to Muslims, will you accept to leave to Canada?

I do not care about your bible; it is my home land and welcome for any peaceful human (Muslims, Jews, Christian, atheists, satanic …) to live in my town but not by blood thirsty Jews terrorists.

That's true. However I can't see what justification they have for that specfic plot of land. I believe it has something to do with a Biblical promise of land, but that was on the Jewish side in the Torah. The Palestinians are Muslim and when I studied that religion I don't remember reading anything about a Biblical promise of land to the Islamic people from Allah. I could be wrong.

Palestinians have not claim to that land. Maybe there is something wrong with me since I can't understand why they are acting in this manner.

~Kitty

 

[Smurf]

It was a war going on. In the aftermath, bad things are bound to happen.
If a few million Germans would have had to restart their lives as free men&women elsewhere in Germany, I really can't regard this as too severe a punishment.

I think you really need to think of such how dire a state that Germany was already in after the war. There were already many hopeless, high unemployment, inflation was off the wall, they were cut in two between NATO and USSR, they'd lost independant autonomy and were under foreign occupation (from 5 countries nonetheless). (the last 3 really affect the 'free' part - they may not have been). It's not like if you had to force 20,000 people from London to Birmingham, it would've been much more difficult than that.

 

[Smurf]

I do not care about your bible; it is my home land and welcome for any peaceful human (Muslims, Jews, Christian, atheists, satanic …) to live in my town but not by blood thirsty Jews terrorists.

:rofl: Perfect example how perception is everything.

 

[Bilal]

Currently the majority of people in historical Palestine (Israel +WB and Gaza) are Palestinian or what called Arab Israeli (Muslims and Christian), so the Israeli have one of two options:

- Forget the Promised Land, forget the god chosen nation, forget the Zionism and how to bring all the Jews to Palestine …. Accept to live in one democratic State with Jews, Islamic and Christian heritage … and give the people equal rights.

OR

- Leave the non Jews (Palestinian) to survive in peacefully in their towns (mainly in West Bank and Gaza), only the Jews who accept to live in democratic Palestine with equal rights with others are allowed to get the Palestinian nationality and to stay in their settlements.

 

[edward]

This link gives some good insight as to why the USA has sent more foreign aid to Israel than to any other nation. It is as someone mentioned earlier all about control,control ,control. It is not necessarily about the control of Israel. it is about controlling the world oil markets.

Since world war two the Americans have sucessfully (until recently) managed to project the anger of the Islamic countries onto Israel.

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/usrole.htm



As for the Gaza pullout the U.S. is supposed to chip in a mere 2.2 billion in taxpayer money.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=966425&C=mideast

 

[BobG]

Fact: Much of the area proposed for the Jewish State was uninhabitable desert, thus you cannot judge the fairness of the plan on land mass alone.
I think claiming a proposed border is "ludicrous" is a rather opinionated way of describing this disagreement. I also disagree with your description of the reasoning for the acceptance of the partition plan on either sides.

I admit, the reasons for acceptance/disagreement are just my opinions. I just find it hard to figure out why either side would have accepted a map that looked like this: UN Partition Plan. Neither side could reach all of its territories without crossing into the other's territory. This was the UN's first big task and first big accomplishment.

Fact: The European and American powers played no role in the Israel War of Independence, other than the British who were still in control during the first stage of the war that consisted of civil hostilities.

True that Israel received no military assistance (I didn't know that). The UN was very heavily involved, negotiating several failed cease fires, and eventually the UN mediator was assasinated. The idea of UN peacekeepers originated in response to the war over Israeli independence - but not during it.

Fact: Israel did not get "the entire area" - far from it. Some Jewish settlements were lost and the area left under Egyptian or Syrian control. Furthermore, Jerusalem was parted between Israel and Jordan. The territories that were meant to become the Palestinian Nation were under the control of the neighbouring Arab nations - who preferred keeping them their own, rather than giving the Palestinians their own country as per the UN Partition plan.

You describe the situation as if Israel won all and gave nothing. First, Israel did not "win all" as I've explained earlier. Second, most the land meant for the Palestinians was held by Arab nations who chose to keep it.
The civil hostilities before the full-fledged war distinguished between hostile and friendly Arab villages. Surely you do not think the newly formed state, barely able to defend itself, should have allowed those who attempted to destroy it to return to the same strongpoints they used to attack and besiege its citizens...

Okay, the winner-take-77%, then. Deciding they should go back to the 1947 Partition Plan would have been disastorous even had the two sides not just fought a war. Maybe a good solution wasn't possible at that time (and maybe it's not possible, yet). Still, leaving things so unresolved was a guarantee of more problems.

Those peaceful Palestinians living in territories that fell under Jewish control are today full Israeli citizens. They were treated fairer and better then African-Americans by some US states and Aboriginies by the Australian government.

Maybe the ones that stayed are full Israeli citizens today, but in 1948, it was real important to hold the majority in the territory Israel controlled (which was a big part of the reason for such a distorted partitioning in '47). The war created about 750,000 Palestinian refugees that either fled or were expelled from Israel (at least 60,000 expelled from Lydda and Ramle, alone). It's not a slam on Israel - there were also about 600,000 Jewish refugees that fled or were expelled from Arab countries. The majority immigrated to Israel plus some to the US. There was no solution for the Palestinian refugees. They were a problem that shouldn't have taken 50 years to resolve.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Are you saying Israel belongs to Turkey?

Are you saying that it is more likely that the land belongs to a bunch of Europeans or Americans who happen to be Jewish instead of the people who were born there?

Earlier, you referred to people who were German Jews who refused to step foot in Germany or speak German.

Do you think it's time they 'got over it'?

 

[The Smoking Man]

They shouldn't, and no one ever asked them to.

That's right.

They were TOLD to.

Big difference.

 

[jaap de vries]

I don't think that there is any doubt that Sharon's move on the chessboard of the Israeli-palistinian problem constitutes a tactical offer in order to enforce the strategic more important West Bank. However, it is also part of the neccesary roadmap to peace.

 

[Pengwuino]

Hmm I think I should go ask "What is the abortion issue and why do people get so mad" and see if I can out-pace this thread.

 

[stoned]

They gave back Gaza Strip back to Palestinians for now, but under any silly pretext Israeli army can occupied it again.

 

[The Smoking Man]

They gave back Gaza Strip back to Palestinians for now, but under any silly pretext Israeli army can occupied it again.

Hence the sudden appearence of a 'tent city' filled with radicals.

 

[Art]

It does seem ironic given the current controversy over terrorism that Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel) waged a guerilla war against the British who declared him a terrorist and a murderer. And Ariel Sharon the current holder of that position whilst in his earlier post as defence minister orchestrated the massacre of women and children in the Sabra and Shatila massacre (note: He was found culpable by an Israeli inquiry - the Kahan commission - of being personally responsible for the attrocities and was sacked by the 'terrorist' Menachem Begin)
It's surprising how little has changed over the years. Israel was founded on terrorism and to this day still effects it's policies using terrorism. And they're supposed to be the good guys? :uhh:
As with the US the majority of Israelis want peace and security but have been tricked into believing the only way to get this is to suppress their enemies forcibally.
Based on Sharon's previous actions I for one would not trust him and as far as the so called pull out from the occupied territories goes what many people are confused by (including many of the settlers being evicted) is that whilst they are being moved out new settlers are moving in and setting up new settlements within a stone's throw of the evicted settlers' homes.

 

[The Smoking Man]

And they're supposed to be the good guys? :uhh:

Well, they ARE supported by the USA.

Look at the USA's use of veto in the area:

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html
http://www.vialls.com/wecontrolamerica/WarCrimes.html

I suppose 'good guys' is a relative term and when you have 'relatives' in the USA there's no holding you back.:groan:

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I am in favor of the withdrawal from Gaza. I suspect that Sharon thinks this withdrawal is a way of cementing the annexation of settlements in the West Bank. If so, I expect he will be disappointed and that Israel will eventually withdraw from there as well. I look forward to the creation of a Palestinian state in these lands that were taken from Egypt and Jordan.

I have no illusions about this leading to the end of terrorism. The Israelis will never give up any of Jerusalem, and the Palestinians will never accept this fact. Even so, I think that the creation of a Palestinian state will improve the situations of all the people that live there.

 

[Smurf]

Hmm I think I should go ask "What is the abortion issue and why do people get so mad" and see if I can out-pace this thread.

No fair! You're starting off-topic we've only just gotten there!

 

[Curious6]

Art, your views are biased and reflect a palpable prejudice. Anyways, I'll take a closer look at the information you presented, which undoubtedly was magnified and tergiversed to fit your opinions. If anybody wants to hear a reasonable defence here, I would listen very carefully to Yonoz as he knows what he's talking about.

 

[Burnsys]

Art, your views are biased and reflect a palpable prejudice. Anyways, I'll take a closer look at the information you presented, which undoubtedly was magnified and tergiversed to fit your opinions. If anybody wants to hear a reasonable defence here, I would listen very carefully to Yonoz as he knows what he's talking about.

I don't think Yonoz opinion is bias free either, he was or he is working for the israeli defence army if i am not wrong.

 

[Art]

Art, your views are biased and reflect a palpable prejudice. Anyways, I'll take a closer look at the information you presented, which undoubtedly was magnified and tergiversed to fit your opinions. If anybody wants to hear a reasonable defence here, I would listen very carefully to Yonoz as he knows what he's talking about.

Biased? Please explain how? Perhaps you would have done better to take a closer look at the information I presented BEFORE criticising my post.

In fact I'll even help you

In Palestine in 1940, Begin was incensed by British attempts to restrict immigration and instigated the underground military campaign against the mandate power. The British offered a reward for his capture, but they never caught him.

Under Begin's command, the underground terrorist group Irgun carried out numerous acts of violence.

In 1946 Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 91 people. In 1948 it took part in the massacre of Arabs in the town of Deir Yassin - an incident that accelerated the Arab exodus from Palestine on the eve of the founding of Israel.

This is the type of activity which your hero Yonoz (whose totally inaccurate recount of the history of Israel you enthusiastically endorsed) euphemistically called civil disorder in his earlier post http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/israel_at_50/profiles/81305.stm

The Kahan Commission investigating these massacres recommended in early 1983 the removal of Sharon from his post as Defense Minister. In their recommendations and closing remarks, the commission stated:

We have found, as has been detailed in this report, that the Minister of Defense [Ariel Sharon] bears personal responsibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Sharon#Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
If you read the Wikipedia article in full you will find Sharon has made a life's work of enacting terrorist attacks on Arabs going all the way back to 1953 with the Qibya massacre .

 

[Entropy]

I have a great solution to this problem! Evacuate everyone from the strip then tactically nuke every square inch of it so NO ONE can have it! It's fair because everyone loses!

 

[Art]

I have a great solution to this problem! Evacuate everyone from the strip then tactically nuke every square inch of it so NO ONE can have it! It's fair because everyone loses!

Unfortunately there are 1.4 million Palestinians who would then be homeless compared to less than 8000 jews. Maybe not so fair.

 

[Smurf]

I have a great solution to this problem! Evacuate everyone from the strip then tactically nuke every square inch of it so NO ONE can have it! It's fair because everyone loses!

You realize that nuclear fallout doesn't stay just in the blast radius? The radiation's not going to say "Okay, we're at the human-defined invisible line marking the border of the gaza strip... let's turn around now"
Come to think of it, the radiation's not going to say anything.

 

[Art]

Here's an excerpt from the BBC confirming my earlier statement that as some settlers are being moved from the West Bank they are being replaced by an even larger number of new settlers.

Two thousand housing units will soon be demolished in the Gaza settlements, but in the West Bank, Mr Sharon's government is planning to build another 6,000 units, further cementing Israel's grip on the bit of the occupied territories that really matters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4160702.stm

 

[Smurf]

So it's official. It's purely a strategic move.

 

[waht]

Here's an excerpt from the BBC confirming my earlier statement that as some settlers are being moved from the West Bank they are being replaced by an even larger number of new settlers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4160702.stm

Thats typical of any jew. Give something back and take twice as much. The jews have done more harm to the world than any other race.

www.jewwatch.com

 

[edward]

Thats typical of any jew. Give something back and take twice as much. The jews have done more harm to the world than any other race.

www.jewwatch.com

That is just predjudice talking. Jews have done nothing that we have not allowed them to do. Jews are not a race.
Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. Jews do not have any genetic distinction.