What proportion of physicists are autistic?

[MojoMcGunner]

I just wondered. I'm applying to study physics at university next year and I was speaking to someone who has just started her PhD. I asked if it would matter at all that I have Asperger's (I have a couple of issue in certain situations but I'm pretty socially functional) and she sad that I wouldn't be in much of a minority at all, a great many physicists have High Functioning Autism Spectrum Disorders.

It kind of made sense to me, seeing as a lot of physics is a massive amount of dedication to the level obsession, and physicists are known for often being a little socially unusual or eccentric, and these are all common autistic traits, plus many autistic people have a good natural aptitude for maths.

So it just made me wonder, if you work or study in physics, to your knowledge is there a higher proportion of autistic people in physics (and I suppose maths too) than in the general population?

 

[Catria]

Depends on the subfields of physics. Experimental particle physics don't have as many autists as other subfields, for instance.

 

[micromass]

Depends on the subfields of physics. Experimental particle physics don't have as many autists as other subfields, for instance.

Got a reliable reference for that statement?

 

[Catria]

Would a professor working in experimental particle physics be a good start?

 

[micromass]

Would a professor working in experimental particle physics be a good start?

Not really. If you got a peer reviewed paper on the subject that researches the topic, then show it. If it's just first-hand experience, then that's not good enough.

 

[arildno]

The professional physicists' milieu is more ACCEPTING of "weirdos" than other work communities.
Thus, you will find a higher proportion of Aspergers' there.

 

[micromass]

The professional physicists' milieu is more ACCEPTING of "weirdos" than other work communities.
Thus, you will find a higher proportion of Aspergers' there.

Sigh. Do you have any reliable references for that??

 

[bossman27]

micromass, I appreciate that you aim to get posters to stick to hard evidence, but I believe the OP (correct me if I'm wrong, Mojo) was just asking for the general, personal observations of people working in physics, and that posts about the topic would be taken as such.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The professional physicists' milieu is more ACCEPTING of "weirdos" than other work communities.
Thus, you will find a higher proportion of Aspergers' there.

Nice mouth. People with Aspergers always speak well of you.

 

[SHISHKABOB]

micromass, I appreciate that you aim to get posters to stick to hard evidence, but I believe the OP (correct me if I'm wrong, Mojo) was just asking for the general, personal observations of people working in physics, and that posts about the topic would be taken as such.

micromass is not asking for evidence from the OP, he is asking for evidence from the poster who made some claims about relative abundances of autists in physics fields.

 

[dipole]

Sigh. Do you have any reliable references for that??

Would you really bother to check it even if he did?

Anyone who's been around a couple physics departments knows there's a lot of weird kids hanging about. In my experience though, people who are actually successful in physics are fairly normal and have average to good social skills.

And no I don't have a reference, it's just my experience working with different research groups and meeting lots of people who have careers in physics.

 

[arildno]

Sigh. Do you have any reliable references for that??

Me, Me, and not the least, MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Anyone who's been around a couple physics departments knows there's a lot of weird kids hanging about.

Can we get off this autists are weird kick?

 

[lisab]

Can we get off this autists are weird kick?

I agree.

 

[dipole]

Can we get off this autists are weird kick?

Who said I'm referring to autistic people? I resent that anyone who's weird is excused by being labeled with Aspergers. I'm responding to Arildno's comment.

 

[bossman27]

micromass is not asking for evidence from the OP, he is asking for evidence from the poster who made some claims about relative abundances of autists in physics fields.

I realize that. My point was that the OP is clearly just interested in hearing about people's general experiences regarding the question at hand, and probably would not be taking claims made in those posts as peer reviewed research. I think a response that would have better facilitated answering the OP's questions would be to ask the person making the claim, "What makes you say that?" rather than, "Do you have a peer reviewed study proving it?" This was meant to be a casual topic, not a fight to demand published evidence.

 

[Evo]

When a claim is made as fact, if you are asked to provide acceptable, mainstream, peer reviewed scientific research, then you MUST provide that research. It's not an option. It prevents the thread from deteriorating into a mess of misinformation.

Also, please show respect for those that suffer from autism spectrum disorder.

 

[Andre]

Well you could try and google

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/1998_bcetal_maths.pdf
http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2001_wheelwright_bc.pdf
http://web.sls.hw.ac.uk/teaching/level1/A31RH3/baron%20cohen%20AQ.pdf

But I'm out of the loop for this one. Just linking.

 

[SHISHKABOB]

I realize that. My point was that the OP is clearly just interested in hearing about people's general experiences regarding the question at hand, and probably would not be taking claims made in those posts as peer reviewed research. I think a response that would have better facilitated answering the OP's questions would be to ask the person making the claim, "What makes you say that?" rather than, "Do you have a peer reviewed study proving it?" This was meant to be a casual topic, not a fight to demand published evidence.

I guess there just would have been zero confusion on the matter if he had prefaces it with "I have found..." or "In my experience..."

on subjects like these, which are not always treated lightly by all, I guess it's helpful to be clear on what you're saying in order to reduce misunderstandings

 

[micromass]

I realize that. My point was that the OP is clearly just interested in hearing about people's general experiences regarding the question at hand, and probably would not be taking claims made in those posts as peer reviewed research. I think a response that would have better facilitated answering the OP's questions would be to ask the person making the claim, "What makes you say that?" rather than, "Do you have a peer reviewed study proving it?" This was meant to be a casual topic, not a fight to demand published evidence.

There is a difference between

"Physics has more autists than other fields"

and

"In my experience, I have met more autistic people in physics departments than in other fields"

The first is not allowed without reference, the second is.

 

[arildno]

When a claim is made as fact, if you are asked to provide acceptable, mainstream, peer reviewed scientific research, then you MUST provide that research. It's not an option. It prevents the thread from deteriorating into a mess of misinformation.

Also, please show respect for those that suffer from autism spectrum disorder.

admitted sloppiness on my part. Since the premise don't seem improbable.
A lot of jobs requires, in terms of functionality, an adeptness in communication skills and reading of other people, for example kindergarten wardens, nurses, lawyers etc.

I would be extremely surprised if practitioners within THESE groups had anything other than tless-than-average-frequency of Aspergers' among them.

Thus, with a reasonably high expectation that Aspergers' will be underrepresented in SOME jobs, they ought to be over-represented in some other types of work. More cerebral professions where social interaction is not a critical factor of success is a region to search for such over-representation (along with professions like archivists, librarians, programmers etc.)

 

[Catria]

My error.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Who said I'm referring to autistic people? I resent that anyone who's weird is excused by being labeled with Aspergers. I'm responding to Arildno's comment.

You are right. I didn't read your post carefully enough.

 

[dipole]

You are right. I didn't read your post carefully enough.

No worries, to be precise though I was actually responding to Micro's response to Arildnos comment.

For the record, I think a lack of social skills and weirdness in "normal" people stems from insecurity and insecurity is often connected to immaturity, for which this is no excuse.

But as my mentor and spiritual adviser Steven Patrick Morrissey sang, there is no such thing in life as normal.

 

[lisab]

No worries, to be precise though I was actually responding to Micro's response to Arildnos comment.

For the record, I think a lack of social skills and weirdness in "normal" people stems from insecurity and insecurity is often connected to immaturity, for which this is no excuse.

But as my mentor and spiritual adviser Steven Patrick Morrissey sang, there is no such thing in life as normal.

And I do agree that totally apart from the autistic question, there do seem to be an unusual number of people in physics who lack social skills - at least, when they interact with strangers.

 

[Mentalist]

Autistic? Weird?

Amazes me how some people keep adhering to petty generalizations that have little evidence backed by reliant sources.

 

[Mentalist]

@lisab; how do you talk with people that have different interests than you? I am 18, I have no twitter or facebook account. When I am on youtube I am mostly watching either introduction videos on how to build things or cook, some scientific sensationalist videos, and political videos, otherwise, I am not on youtube. In terms of books, I don't read any science-fiction, rather philosophical and scientific-centered literature, whether it'd be ideas or how a theory came into light. In terms of music, the closest pop is massive attack or portishead, but mostly ambient and certain periods in classical. Other interests are in novice star gazing, lone-adventuring through the woods near my home and trying to gain better survival skills, or simply just people watching.

People who have the same major as I do are more social in terms of being active in social media. I don't like it (except for this website) and believe it is useless, but they are on it all the time. The only thing close to that would be messaging for projects or emailing occasionally.

I can talk to older people much better than my age group, but I do certainly try by reading up on certain topical conversations I hear, but I end up coming off as unauthentic (I can see it in the eyes of people). I almost sound like I am acting when I try talking about the latest "happening" going on. Like I rehearsed the lines but cannot remember them. It's more embarrassing than beneficial.

Every-time I begin a conversation because I want to be social, I am the one having to hold up the conversation. I honestly hate doing that, why can the person I am talking with try to help out? Why must I be the one to initiate and sustain it? Then when they stop talking and keep sitting there, I have to think of another conversation that would take longer. I find it rather hard talking with people in my age group because I believe they don't know what to say and I end up becoming offended and just getting away from them.

But even if I do have a "seemingly" good conversation with people, when I see them walking they just stare at me as if they want me to be the first one to say high.

If anyone is weird it's them. I am not weird or autistic. I hate these labels. They just reinforce into the minds of other people like the examples above, that people like me must have some psychological issue when really, I believe they have psychological issues that need dealing with.

/rant

 

[Andre]

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/1998_bcetal_maths.pdf
http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2001_wheelwright_bc.pdf
http://web.sls.hw.ac.uk/teaching/level1/A31RH3/baron%20cohen%20AQ.pdf

However we don't seem to be able to answer the OP question. So, maybe we should try again:

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/1998_bcetal_maths.pdf

To minimize the risk of statistically significant results occurring due to multiple testing, two tests were carried out of first: autism (predicted to be more common in the engineers/maths/physics families); and manic depression (predicted to be more common in the English/French families, based on earlier findings (...). Both predictions were confirmed.

http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2001_wheelwright_bc.pdf

But such studies reinforce an old yet often lost idea: that the genes underlying autism are not always only associated with (social) disability but may also be associated with talent in (non-social) fields

http://web.sls.hw.ac.uk/teaching/level1/A31RH3/baron%20cohen%20AQ.pdf

Abstract
...
In this paper, we report on a new instrument to assess this: the Autism-Spectrum Quotient (AQ).
...
but scientists (including mathematicians) scored significantly higher than both humanities and social sciences students, confirming an earlier study that autistic conditions are associated with scientific skills. Within the sciences, mathematicians scored highest. This was replicated in Group 4, the Mathematics Olympiad winners scoring significantly higher than the male Cambridge humanities students.

Consequently:

... is there a higher proportion of autistic people in physics (and I suppose maths too) than in the general population?

That's a peer reviewed yes, most likely.

 

[zoobyshoe]

That's a peer reviewed yes, most likely.

Most likely or not really. It's one thing to say that autistic people often have engineers/math/science professionals in their family and something else to say that those family members who are engineers/math/science people are, themselves, autistic. Those links don't make the latter claim, though they imply these people are carrying the genes.

This still doesn't answer the OP, who really is just conducting an informal poll: if you work in physics, do there seem to be people on the spectrum in your workplace?

 

[Andre]

Most likely or not really. It's one thing to say that autistic people often have engineers/math/science professionals in their family and something else to say that those family members who are engineers/math/science people are, themselves, autistic. Those links don't make the latter claim, though they imply these people are carrying the genes.

This still doesn't answer the OP, who really is just conducting an informal poll: if you work in physics, do there seem to be people on the spectrum in your workplace?

It occurs to me that Baron-Cohen et al 2001 do not address family but the persons themselfs having done the Autism-Spectrum Quotient test.

 

[MarneMath]

I just wondered. I'm applying to study physics at university next year and I was speaking to someone who has just started her PhD. I asked if it would matter at all that I have Asperger's (I have a couple of issue in certain situations but I'm pretty socially functional) and she sad that I wouldn't be in much of a minority at all, a great many physicists have High Functioning Autism Spectrum Disorders.

It kind of made sense to me, seeing as a lot of physics is a massive amount of dedication to the level obsession, and physicists are known for often being a little socially unusual or eccentric, and these are all common autistic traits, plus many autistic people have a good natural aptitude for maths.

So it just made me wonder, if you work or study in physics, to your knowledge is there a higher proportion of autistic people in physics (and I suppose maths too) than in the general population?

I would be careful to say a lot of austitic have a natural aptitude for mathematics. I'm an aspie, and it annoyed me when people would say, "oh it makes sense, you guys are always good at math." I did some research a while (years ago) and I wish I kep the paper, but from what I recall, on the whole, aspies have typical math abilities and tend to test worse than the average population. Some are granted exceptional gifts, but I wouldn't call it many.

However, the sciences are appealing to people who are socially less inclined. Any work that requires more alone time than social time would be appealing though. I know it was for me, because after years as a child not making friends or being thought of odd, I got kind of tired of it and just began to study math because I could do it alone.

Nevertheless, it's important to realize as an aspie that you have to work to overcome your lack of social understanding to be successful in anything you do. The fellow aspies I have met in physics and math that were successful knew this and worked hard to overcome their difficulties and network and make friends.

So in short, there might be more aspies in in physics than say as a lawyer, but a I also believe a lot of eccentricness or weirdness you see in those departments is not due to a high number of us just hanging out, but rather, kids who just happen to be socially awkward for one reason or another being viewed by kids who are not as socially awkward.

Anyway, if you're ever interested in talking to more aspies http://www.wrongplanet.net/forums.html a good little subculture exist there.

 

[arildno]

I believe all people have a natural need to feel recognized. Those who happen, for one reason or other, to be somewhat socially awkward propel themselves, perhaps, into areas where they feel more certain they will gain recognition?

 

[lisab]

@lisab; how do you talk with people that have different interests than you? I am 18, I have no twitter or facebook account. When I am on youtube I am mostly watching either introduction videos on how to build things or cook, some scientific sensationalist videos, and political videos, otherwise, I am not on youtube. In terms of books, I don't read any science-fiction, rather philosophical and scientific-centered literature, whether it'd be ideas or how a theory came into light. In terms of music, the closest pop is massive attack or portishead, but mostly ambient and certain periods in classical. Other interests are in novice star gazing, lone-adventuring through the woods near my home and trying to gain better survival skills, or simply just people watching.

People who have the same major as I do are more social in terms of being active in social media. I don't like it (except for this website) and believe it is useless, but they are on it all the time. The only thing close to that would be messaging for projects or emailing occasionally.

I can talk to older people much better than my age group, but I do certainly try by reading up on certain topical conversations I hear, but I end up coming off as unauthentic (I can see it in the eyes of people). I almost sound like I am acting when I try talking about the latest "happening" going on. Like I rehearsed the lines but cannot remember them. It's more embarrassing than beneficial.

Every-time I begin a conversation because I want to be social, I am the one having to hold up the conversation. I honestly hate doing that, why can the person I am talking with try to help out? Why must I be the one to initiate and sustain it? Then when they stop talking and keep sitting there, I have to think of another conversation that would take longer. I find it rather hard talking with people in my age group because I believe they don't know what to say and I end up becoming offended and just getting away from them.

But even if I do have a "seemingly" good conversation with people, when I see them walking they just stare at me as if they want me to be the first one to say high.

If anyone is weird it's them. I am not weird or autistic. I hate these labels. They just reinforce into the minds of other people like the examples above, that people like me must have some psychological issue when really, I believe they have psychological issues that need dealing with.

/rant

I'm a scientist, a woman, an atheist, I don't watch TV (hate it, in fact). I despise celebrity culture and I have a hard time hiding it. I don't wear make-up and I have no interest in fashion or the latest hair styles.

Any one of those things would brand me as "weird", so to have all of them...yeah, I'm aware most people I meet think I'm strange.

How do I interact with new people? It's tough sometimes. I can't be inauthentic, so in large part it depends on the open-mindedness of the person I'm meeting.

 

[arildno]

I don't wear make-up and I have no interest in fashion or the latest hair styles.

What about new beard styles flowing out from The Hobbit? Are they okay?

 

[Andre]

What about new beard styles flowing out from The Hobbit? Are they okay?

Let me predict it's not okay :uhh: