Physicist monkey and vending machine story

[Ayaya]

So a friend who works in physics told a story at a party the other day I find very interesting that now I just got to find a place with other physicists to ask if he's telling the truth or maybe downed one too many shots.

He told a story where a tribe extremely smart monkeys one day finds a vending machine in the middle of a forest. The machine is displaying all these different kind of goodies the monkeys can see which they want very much but can't get to. So the tribe decides to pick some of it's smartest monkeys to get to work on the machine instead of gathering fruits. These monkeys have no way to open the machine to maybe find out exactly how it's working, but they figured out that if you press the buttons in the correct combinations different kind of goodies sometimes comes out.

So the monkeys got to work painstakingly developing hypothesis on which combinations of buttons to press to get which goodie, testing these hypothesis, and recording the ones that worked. And since there's no way for them to open the machine they start making up stories about how there's little monkeys inside making the goodies drop if the right buttons are pressed. And since the correct goodies do drop when the theorized buttons are pressed, everybody believes their story.

He said this is pretty much physics nowadays. Now he said, and I quote, "It's getting to a point where nobody actually knows what the f is really going on. Everybody is focused on finding the right buttons to press so the universe drop its candy bars cause there are bills to pay. Theories are "inventive", half the s*** are made up, but as long as you bring home the chocolate your word is gospel."

Okay guys, now I know this isn't exactly a very flattering depiction of your profession, he WAS starting to slur during the telling. But be honest, cause I just got to know, is there any truth to this? Or should I stop him next time when his face starts to go red.

 

[Hornbein]

My uncle Tom was a professor of chemistry. He said quantum mechanics was like an old jalopy that had been running perfectly for 80 years, but you can''t open the hood and see how it works.

 

[PeroK]

I think it was Heisenberg who first realized that the laws of physics at the fundamental level perhaps admit only an abstract mathematical description and not a fully realistic, mechanistic model. There is, in fact, a thread about this at the moment re a mechanism for quantum entanglement.

Moreover, it's very difficult to probe the world of elementary particles experimentally, as all but a few particles have extremely short lives. Take a look at the muon g experiment. It would be great to do experiments with tauons, but they are even harder to produce and shorter lived.

 

[Borek]

Monkeys may not know what is inside, but as long as they know what combinations of buttons to use to get what they want, and as long as they can even predict right combinations of buttons that will produce new goodies - does it really matter?

We may not know what gravity "really" is, but it doesn't stop us from sending a satellite that travels millions of miles and lands in the exact spot we wanted it to (that is, as long as we don't screw units). So do we have to care about "really"? There is a nice video with Feynman explaining why "why?" question can't be never fully answered. At some point "why?" and "really" become meaningless.

 

[jbriggs444]

He told a story where a tribe extremely smart monkeys one day finds a vending machine in the middle of a forest.

Slightly related story...

In years gone by, I was at a DECUS symposium. On the final day there is a traditional "VAX Magic" session where presenters are invited to tell stories of neat stuff that they've done with their VAXen.

So these guys had a VAX11/730 hooked up in their lab environment, controlling a puppy chow dispenser for a kennel of dogs. They had a problem. For some reason the machine would crash each night. This was problematic since when it crashed, it would release food into all the bowls, ruining the setup for the next days round of experiments. Apparently you can't run a good psych experiment without hungry puppies.

After serious work looking for an explanation of the failure mode, some careful monitoring was set up only to discover that the dogs had learned to pee on the computer.

 

[Ayaya]

Okay, this is interesting, the response so far is not what I was expecting.

So...at approximate what point in physics did we start making up stories to make things easier to digest because nobody really knows why?

and that whole thing about gravity then, been curvature of space and time and all, is that..somewhat made up?

 

[pinball1970]

Okay, this is interesting, the response so far is not what I was expecting.

So...at approximate what point in physics did we start making up stories to make things easier to digest because nobody really knows why?

and that whole thing about gravity then, been curvature of space and time and all, is that..somewhat made up?

Don't forget 'Shut up and calculate.' This sounds like your monkey thing.

They don't know what's really going on behind behind the curtain but they know with exquisite precision what the next act will be and how they will behave.
To a point.

 

[Filip Larsen]

While we (or rather the physicists) are in some sense making up stories they also strive to keep the stories as simple and consistent as possible by telling their stories using math. Its only when trying to explain this math in, say, real-world analogies that arbitrary monkeys starts to enter and clutter things up. Or in other words, physics can describe how the world work with an impressive accuracy, but at the most fundamental level it cannot tell you why it works like that.

 

[Bandersnatch]

I think the story is accurate, insofar as the monkeys are making theories on how to press buttons and predicting what each press does.
Where it goes on about the same monkeys making up stories about what they cannot test (what >makes< this candy drop? what >is< candy?), they've gone beyond physics.
Unless they make those stories with the express purpose of checking if looking at the problem a certain way won't illuminate a new avenue of testing their models.

A good monkey is not interested in making any old story, just to cover up its ignorance. A good monkey wants to model the machine in a way that makes best possible predictions. Anything further than that is for the priestly caste.

 

[PeroK]

and that whole thing about gravity then, been curvature of space and time and all, is that..somewhat made up?

Newton's laws of motion and law of gravitation were made up too. The only alternative to making things up is to find tablets of stone with the laws of physics on them!

 

[Swamp Thing]

And since the correct goodies do drop when the theorized buttons are pressed, everybody believes their story.

Thesis advisor monkey to student monkey, as they chew on chocolate bars: "Shut up and masticate".

 

[Ayaya]

Newton's laws of motion and law of gravitation were made up too. The only alternative to making things up is to find tablets of stone with the laws of physics on them!

I am well aware the physical laws your discipline distills regarding what stuff DOES is impeccable.

I was talking about what Borek said above, "We may not know what gravity "really" is".

Because by that logic saying gravity IS curvature of space and time, which is what everyone was taught all the way back in high school, is that an accurate statement? Or is it more we don't know what gravity is but we do know exactly how it effects space/time/stuffs?

 

[PeroK]

I was talking about what Borek said above, "We may not know what gravity "really" is".

That's metaphysics and not physics. Physics is about modeling physical phenomena. The question of what something "really" is is meaningless as far as physics is concerned.

Because by that logic saying gravity IS curvature of space and time, which is what everyone was taught all the way back in high school, is that an accurate statement?

That's the mathematical model. That's all physics has to say on the subject.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

He said this is pretty much physics nowadays. Now he said, and I quote, "It's getting to a point where nobody actually knows what the f is really going on. Everybody is focused on finding the right buttons to press so the universe drop its candy bars cause there are bills to pay. Theories are "inventive", half the s*** are made up, but as long as you bring home the chocolate your word is gospel."

Perhaps this depends on what you expect from physics? Wikipedia describes physics as, "the natural science that studies matter, its fundamental constituents, its motion and behaviour through space and time, and the related entities of energy and force. Physics is one of the most fundamental scientific disciplines, with its main goal being to understand how the universe behaves."

That's my emphasis, but the definition doesn't say why the universe behaves as it does, as has been noted above. For me, the monkey story is a measure of science denialism that trivalises the amazing benefits derived from the systematic investigation of the physical world codified into physics theories.

 

[Ayaya]

Okay, well appreciate everyone here who took the time to reply.

A bit of backstory. That friend of mine and our group goes all the way back to high school. As you probably expect he's the smartest of us bunch. The guy is not nerdy (no offense), extremely social, but a COMPLETE troll, pulling pranks left and right back in the day. Surprised everyone by going into science then physics while most of the rest of us went into business, said it would be "funny".

See most groups have a no politics during party or gatherings. We have a no physics. Why? no not because he goes on about some equations nobody can understand and puts people to sleep. He'd tell stories that either melts your brain or completely freaks people out.

I mean some of the more off the top stories goes on about how Earth's pole going to reverse and everyone's going to get fried. How physicists spent trillions building an accelerator to find some particle but really it's to open demon portals after committing human sacrifice. How it's really all just a simulation and everybody is in the matrix..etc.

This time it was just him and I. Hell if he knew I got bothered enough by one of his stories that I posted on a physics forum he'll probably laugh his ass off.

Anyways, again appreciate everyone's time, I'm try getting some sleep. Peace.

 

[jbriggs444]

I mean some of the more off the top stories goes on about how Earth's pole going to reverse and everyone's going to get fried.

That one is well grounded. The magnetic poles can reverse. The reversal could plausibly result in the magnetic field being weakened and defense against irradiation by charged particles to diminish. If no one else in the room knows the details, there is free rein to make the possibility as terrifyingly lethal, certain and proximate as desired.

https://climate.nasa.gov/ask-nasa-c...ic-field-arent-causing-todays-climate-change/

 

[BWV]

We are all just smart monkeys, so why should we expect to do any better?

And one can always go another level down in vending machine theory

 

[Bandersnatch]

That one is well grounded.

Yeah, the one with the portal is true as well. Why, only yesterday I've overheard particle physicists bemoaning how difficult it is these days to find virgins slim enough to fit into the accelerator tube. No wonder the summoning of the God Particle keeps being delayed.

 

[OCR]

The only alternative to making things up is to find tablets of stone with the laws of physics on them!

Well, yeah, and the monkeys did have help. . . you know. .

.