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Hi there! I wanted to ask this question about the basic political leanings of the members of PF forums. I will keep this poll open for 60 days, starting today.
Typically, the economic spectrum has full private/unfettered capitalism on the right and full socialist on the left, with gradually increasing government control as you move from right to left. Today, most people/governments who identify as "socialist" do still utilize some capitalism. So the typical European socialist would just answer "very liberal".Ryan_m_b said:This poll is very restrictive to a simplistic left/right spectrum. "Liberal" is someone who supports a capitalist market economy with government regulation, welfare and provision of essential services. How does a socialist who does not approve of capitalism answer the poll?
Are you saying that in Europe, "liberals" favor private ownership? Then what does "conservative" mean to europeans?William White said:Russ,
I would consider myself a socialist but very very people would consider me liberal, me included.
I have liberal views on some subjects, and not on others.
Very liberal does not describe my politics, nor does liberal in general.
Socialism does not mean very liberal, especially in Europe. It often means the opposite, especially when it comes to arguments such as private versus public ownership (of the means of production and distribtution of wealth).
Yes I think that would help.russ_watters said:If we just clarify that these are USA centric definitions and just use "left" and "right" instead, does that help?
Big boxes, not little boxes. People want to be unique: they want their own little box, not to be collected into the same big box as everyone else.phinds said:This is just a way to narrow our belief systems into little boxes. I just don't find life that simple.
Classically, liberalism is essentially synonomous with "personal freedom", including private property ownership. But as the wiki on the political spectrum points out, modern liberals (in general) favor social freedom, but oppose economic freedom (private property). And vice versa for conservatives. That's why tax rates are higher in more "liberal" countries. So in that way, the current usage of the word "liberal" doesn't match the original meaning -- it's just a label for the box. But in my googling for information about European political parties, it appears to me that the usage by the OP and in the US is the accepted usage in Europe too, so I don't understand why you are arguing this. Liberal, socialist, democrat, progressive: these are all related/linked ideologies on the left side of the political spectrum, differing largelly in degree, and often put under a "socialist" umbrella (just like the right side is put under a "capitalist" umbrella, highlighting the two extremes): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_SocialistsWilliam White said:the protection of private property is a defining characteristic of liberalism!
That's a different issue, but still your problem and not the poll's. Everyone needs to average their own views and weigh them against the choices in this poll and actual elections and pick the closest fit.William White said:The problem with these things is that people might be broady left wing (as I am) but also hold some right-wing views (as I do) and vice versa.
russ_watters said:ou can't argue your way out of a box by arguing about the label. We could easily re-name them "Box 1" and "Box 2" if that would help, but it doesn't change anything so it should not be necessary.
That's a different issue, but still your problem and not the poll's. .
I am a social idealist but have a conservative view of the environment and consider abortion to be a matter of personal choice for the pregnant woman.thankz said:I'm a republican but I have a liberal view when it comes to the environment and abortion.
All of those are still on the same side of the specturm and differing only in degree (heck, in one sense, you can measure all positions on the specturm by degree of government intervention). Here's a common, multi-national spectrum:Ryan_m_b said:Yes in Europe liberalism is very different to socialism, what tends to be referred to in the U.S. as socialism in Europe is actually social democracy. SD proposes state provision of vital services and regulation of the market but it still advocates markets of private property to do so and social democrats are against socialists. Liberals are a more weak sauce version of social democrats.
That doesn't imply their views are far apart: In the US, we're up to about 20 self-identified Republican presidential candidates, who are all against each other. Heck, they both have "social" in their names!...and social democrats are against socialists...
You seem to be arguing both sides of this at once:William White said:NO. This is not a case of a rose by any other name.
I don't know you and until now, knew nothing of your political views, so no, I haven't been suggesting you are anything -- I'm just analyzing the poll and the political specturm. However, yes, if you are left wing, then by the common political spectrums I'm familiar with, that's the "liberal" side. I agree that the above poll cuts off the ends, though, because I recognize that someone who is far off to one side or another is not commonly referred to by the more mainstream view. So if you are that far left, then it is certainly possible that the categories in the OP are insufficiently narrow. In the US, however, people tend to go the other way and believe they are closer to the center than they really are, so are more likely to self-identify as less extreme. IE, liberals in the US will bristle at being referred to as "socialist" even as they get further and further to the left in the spectrum, whereas in Europe the word is less taboo -- so it's used in the many of the names of the parties on the left side of the spectrum.The reason I am arguing about this is because I am not a liberal; but you seem to think that I am because I am left wing.
Now you're arguing that they are actually on opposite sides of the spectrum. Presumably (by below examples) that "liberal" is more commonly/properly identified as being on the right side of the spectrum. Please provide an example or two of such a policy.There are many liberal policies that are polar opposites of what socialism is about, and vice versa.
Because as you see in the spectrum I posted, liberal and socialist are on the same side of the spectrum.The poll (broadly) splits people into conservatives. liberals or other.
Why not liberals, socialists or other?
Please provide a better example of liberals being conservative. IE, a "Liberal Conservative Party". For the Liberal Democrats, the Wiki defines them as a social liberal party and an opponent of the conservative party! So I don't see how what you are saying could be any more clearly wrong.Maybe it is because you are an American and are confusing liberalism with socialism because to Americans they mean the same thing. This is NOT the case in the rest of the world, and certainly not Europe. Liberals are just as likely to be conservatives as socialists.
My understanding is that that's a contradiction in terms, even in Europe. My understanding is that parties in parliamentary systems form coalitions because they need them to share power if they don't have a majority of their own. So forming a coalition does not imply full adoption of the other party's views (indeed, if they did, they should just merge).The Liberal Party of the UK was in a right-wing coalition with the Conservative party here for the past five years.
I believe that this poll is due to the upcoming American elections and American values would hold here. @StatGuy2000, please specify if your poll is for Americans for the upcoming elections. If it's not, I don't see the point of the poll.William White said:Russ,
I would consider myself a socialist but very very people would consider me liberal, me included.
I have liberal views on some subjects, and not on others.
Very liberal does not describe my politics, nor does liberal in general.
Socialism does not mean very liberal, especially in Europe. It often means the opposite, especially when it comes to arguments such as private versus public ownership (of the means of production and distribtution of wealth).There is a clear difference, which this poll does not consider. So I have voted none of the above.
Socialism is as far removed from liberalism as liberalism is from conservatism.
Many European countries, the UK is one, have Liberal politcal parties.
"Shifted", yes, but not flipped: Typically it is said that the US spectrum's center is to the right of the center of the spectrum in Europe, but that wouldn't make a left-wing person in the US right wing in Europe, it would make them closer to the center.Tosh5457 said:Anyway, like it has been said, in Europe the Left-Right political spectrum is shifted in relation to US, so a right-wing person here in Europe could be considered left-wing in US, and vice-versa.
That is an issue of "a rose by another name". The word "liberal" refers specifically to freedom, but unfortunately the word "conservative" just means "the way things used to be", so it's meaning could reflect the tradition of a particular country. In most of Europe, ironically, the political tradition is classical liberalism, but I can see how modern Russian communists might refer to themselves as "conservative". That's why "left" and "right" are more generic and should be applicable across national borders.In Europe someone very conservative actually supports a very strong State, in some sort of dictatorship, while in US someone very conservative is mostly against the government and for free-markets. In the left-wing spectrum, there's also the Conservative Communists, who want to go back to some sort of Soviet state.
Could you please provide an example of such an economic policy by Social-Democrats that could be considered free market? Frankly, what I tend to see from people on the left side of the spectrum is that they consider outcome to be freedom, and it really isn't.As of liberals, Social-Democrats are liberals in both economic and social policies, and are at the forefront of turning European economies into more free-market economies. Socially they usually support gay rights, abortion, etc... So classifying them as left-wing just because they're liberals doesn't make sense, as their economic policy is clearly right-wing.
Ditto, but most liberals would probably disagree that I'm an environmentalist...which is fine, because I tend to disagree that they are.thankz said:I'm a republican but I have a liberal view when it comes to the environment and abortion.
I think it has to do with the misinformation surrounding GMO seeds. I either disagreed or strongly disagreed.russ_watters said:My score:
View attachment 86317
Anyone else thrown by this question?
"Multinational companies are unethically exploiting the plant genetic resources of developing countries."
What does that even mean? Sounds hippie, so I said "strongly disagree".
That's what I figured, but the phrase "plant genetic resources" just sounds like gibberish to me.Evo said:I think it has to do with the misinformation surrounding GMO seeds. I either disagreed or strongly disagreed.
russ_watters said:My perception with discussions like this is that because people don't like to be put in big boxes, they argue against them instead of just answering the question as best they can.
Yeah, it's gibberish.russ_watters said:That's what I figured, but the phrase "plant genetic resources" just sounds like gibberish to me.
...which does not preclude answering the poll!Vanadium 50 said:But sometimes these are the wrong boxes.
The person asking a question is the one who gets to decide what is most important to him/her (what s/he wants to know). That has nothing to do with history.The implicit assumption in this thread is the left-right axis is the most important descriptor. This is historically...
Sometimes untrue in history, sure. But political parties wouldn't self-label on the typically accepted spectrum if it weren't a useful and important measure.This is historically untrue - consider Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr.
Poll: Do you still beat your wife?russ_watters said:...which does not preclude answering the poll!
They are purposely designed that way in order to force people to take a stand. Otherwise, people tend to select the middle too often.Ryan_m_b said:The questions from Evo's link seemed to lack nuance and have a lot of dichotomies...
Evo said:I believe that this poll is due to the upcoming American elections and American values would hold here. @StatGuy2000, please specify if your poll is for Americans for the upcoming elections. If it's not, I don't see the point of the poll.
russ_watters said:Sounds hippie, so I said "strongly disagree".