Cohen of Washington post on H.S. math

[Atomos]

From Washington post:

Richard Cohen: You don't use algebra much
And as a requirement, it's driving kids to drop out



05:28 AM CST on Monday, February 20, 2006


I am haunted by Gabriela Ocampo.

Last year, she dropped out of the 12th grade at Birmingham High School in Los Angeles after failing algebra six times in six semesters, trying it a seventh time and finally just despairing over ever getting it.

So, according to the Los Angeles Times, she "gathered her textbooks, dropped them at the campus book room and, without telling a soul, vanished from Birmingham High School."

Gabriela, this is Richard: There's life after algebra.

In truth, I don't know what to tell Gabriela. The L.A. school district now requires all students to pass a year of algebra and a year of geometry in order to graduate. This is something new for Los Angeles (although 17 states require it), and it is the sort of vaunted education reform that is supposed to close the science and math gap and make the U.S. more competitive. All it seems to do, though, is ruin the lives of countless kids. In L.A., more kids drop out of school on account of algebra than any other subject. I can hardly blame them.

Discuss...

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I think basic algebra is good for someone to learn. Personally while I hated math I passed my algebra class without any problems and promptly forgot everything I learned. It may be different for me with the sorts of things that I think about but I've always wished I retained some of what I learned to help solve some of the problems I encounter.

 

[Gale]

gah, I'm in a horrible mood from studying all weekend, and being stuck at home with only my dogs and no company, and I'm sick of writing out problems and emailing professors and working so hard... and reading this stuff makes me so mad!

algebra is a very logical subject, of course it helps your reasoning. that's why its required. i admit that some kids just aren't as naturally inclined towards it, and that many teachers make it a difficult subject for anyone to learn, but who the hell can say you'll NEVER need algebra?!? Ya, america's so fantastic nowadays with all those well written thank you notes, who needs math now! all those other countries are busy learning how to solve problems, but we'll be writing the best Cosmo articles. God, why are we pressuring our children and forcing them to study such archaic subjects like math? we have computers! we don't need to think any more. arggg

 

[scott1]

I think Math teachers are the problem.They give WAY too much homework and there terrible teachers

 

[mattmns]

Sorry, but if you cannot pass High School Algebra 1, you are a fu*king moron. I agree, though, that English is a very important subject, but history? History is the most useless subject in the world, in my opinion. I have never needed to know that John Wilkes Boothe shot Lincoln, or about Kennedy and the Bay of Pigs.

 

[franznietzsche]

I think Math teachers are the problem.They give WAY too much homework and there terrible teachers

I think stupid people are the problem. I wouldn't be surprised if this girl also failed the exit exam before they pushed the requirement back another year. I think we have a culture that overly encourages only overachievement and underachievement, with no middle ground. We have the worst averages in the developed worlds, but many of the best top performers. It makes no sense really.

Oh, and Cohen could use with some lessons in why circular logic makes him look like an idiot. [/rant]

 

[Moonbear]

Sorry, but if you cannot pass High School Algebra 1, you are a fu*king moron. I agree, though, that English is a very important subject, but history? History is the most useless subject in the world, in my opinion. I have never needed to know that John Wilkes Boothe shot Lincoln, or about Kennedy and the Bay of Pigs.

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it...
History as it's usually taught in high schools probably is useless, but the subject as a whole is not. I don't care so much about a bunch of dates and names of generals, but if you talk about the motivations and issues that led to certain conflicts, you can apply that to modern situations. A lot of it is about learning from past mistakes and past successes.

 

[Atomos]

I really do not see how english is usefull at all. Since grade 6 they have not taught actual english but rather english language arts. Essentially every class since then has been about analysing literature (poems, short stories, and novels). This is completely useless. I can see how everyone's life can be enriched by knowledge of mathematics, science, and history, and literacy, but being able to interpret poetry is only desirable if you are going to be an english major in university. English is the only class for which I can say that, despite maintaining good marks in it, I have not learned ANYTHING from it in the last 6 years. What is even worse is that english language arts is given precedence in most schools.

 

[AKG]

If the number of people fail high school because they fail these math courses is such that there aren't enough high school graduates for businesses to hire, then they'll start hiring these people who fail. This won't change the number of jobs that companies hire for, so if it's ruining the lives of people who do poorly in school, it is improving the lives of those who do well. That might be good for the individual and good for the economy as a whole, because it (supposedly) puts better educated people in the work force, and it increases the incentive to be well-educated for the individual. That said, this policy is only as good as the education system, i.e. the actual value of being educated by the existing education system (to the individual and to the economy).

 

[mattmns]

Ok I guess we need to define history. Because yes, my personal history is useful to me. I can also see history being useful in the sense that a chemist could look back and see what other chemist did and not make the same mistakes, but this is not history, instead it is common sense. What I mean by history, is what the guy in the article is talking about, high school history (what I am thinking of is US History and maybe World History).

Is there anything in those classes (US/World History), at all, that would be useful to your average joe? I can see maybe reading up on history if I was going to run a country, or if I was planning to conquer some nation, but how is that going to help me support my family and live my life? Unless you are getting at some sort of abstract sense of History being useful in that it may bring personal happiness?

If he, the article writer, wants to get at the idea of usefullness to the whole population, then one can live without knowing anything (except maybe how to speak and read, which is easily picked up by the end of elementary school for most). My grandma cannot write proper english sentences, does not know math, history, science, or anything and lives a perfectly fine happy life with knowing only how to speak and read (unless you want to talk about knowing things that are not academic, ie, driving). So why bother teaching anything once we know how to read and write?

It seems to me that the guy who wrote the article wants to live before we knew math, personally I don't. I like computers, cars, buildings, typewriters, and everything else that we have invented from math in some sense or another, I don't want to live as the cavemen did.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Ok I guess we need to define history. Because yes, my personal history is useful to me. I can also see history being useful in the sense that a chemist could look back and see what other chemist did and not make the same mistakes, but this is not history, instead it is common sense. What I mean by history, is what the guy in the article is talking about, high school history (what I am thinking of is US History and maybe World History).

Is there anything in those classes (US/World History), at all, that would be useful to your average joe?

Politics. All citizens should be prepared to be active members of their society and understand it's politics. How does one understand the politics of their country if they have no idea of it's history?

 

[Cyrus]

In my opinion, if nothing else, MATH is the main thing you want to come out of high school knowing, even if it is only up to the pre-calc level. Hopefully she gets serious and enrolls in a community college so that she can have a real teacher and real students who don't act like clowns in class. At the same time, you really have to try to fail basic algebra 6 times. Even foreign kids who don't speak english pass algebra. (but that is usually because they come from a real school system in their country )

 

[franznietzsche]

I really do not see how english is usefull at all. Since grade 6 they have not taught actual english but rather english language arts. Essentially every class since then has been about analysing literature (poems, short stories, and novels). This is completely useless. I can see how everyone's life can be enriched by knowledge of mathematics, science, and history, and literacy, but being able to interpret poetry is only desirable if you are going to be an english major in university. English is the only class for which I can say that, despite maintaining good marks in it, I have not learned ANYTHING from it in the last 6 years. What is even worse is that english language arts is given precedence in most schools.

This is the same short-sighted thinking that makes Cohen say algebra is worthless. "If I didn't really learn anything from it, it must be worthless, because the value of something revolves around what I gained from it".

 

[scott1]

I think we have a culture that overly encourages only overachievement and underachievement, with no middle ground.

That is the problem.Where pushing students way too far maybe we should go a bit slower in High school but go faster in elemtary school and middle school(but that would go slower then elemtary school since middle school soppesed one of the toughfest stages in a students life).So that way when the students are at elemtary they would learn multipaction and divison in the 1st maybe 2nd grade which would mean that would less things in high school.During High school it will go slower so that the harder math gets studied more.Reason why I think that is that if youngers kids can learn langues better when the young it could the same for math and other subjects.

 

[mattmns]

Politics. All citizens should be prepared to be active members of their society and understand it's politics. How does one understand the politics of their country if they have no idea of it's history?

That is a good application, have any others of the top of your head?

If I am truly ignorant in this regard please inform me.

 

[franznietzsche]

That is the problem.Where pushing students way too far maybe we should go a bit slower in High school but go faster in elemtary school and middle school(but that would go slower then elemtary school since middle school soppesed one of the toughfest stages in a students life).So that way when the students are at elemtary they would learn multipaction and divison in the 1st maybe 2nd grade which would mean that would less things in high school.During High school it will go slower so that the harder math gets studied more.Reason why I think that is that if youngers kids can learn langues better when the young it could the same for math and other subjects.

I disagree completely. Taking the egotistical, statistically insignificant, and generally irrelevant example of myself, I struggled with arithmetic math in elementary school but have had little trouble with "concept" math, from calculus onwards.

Two things: Longer school hours, and MORE homework. Look at every school system that does better than hours, and on the surface, these are two significant differences. We go to school less, and we work on schoolwork less outside of school.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

That is a good application, have any others of the top of your head?

If I am truly ignorant in this regard please inform me.

What more is needed? This is the single most important reason why history ought to be taught and studied and it definitely is not a negligible matter.

 

[mattmns]

Yes I understand, what I am asking, however, is are there any other uses?

Here is another question: How has who you voted for in an election been influence by your knowledge of history? And when I say history I mean something you learned in a High School/College US/World History class.

I can say that looking at what George W Bush did in his first 4 years of president influenced me to not vote for him in his second term, but that did not require any knowledge of what is taught in a High School/College US/World History class, at least where I go to school (granted I have taken only four college history classes, three of which were lower, freshman, level).

 

[rachmaninoff]

Yes I understand, what I am asking, however, is are there any other uses?

You mean besides knowing what the human species is and how it got to be that way?

 

[mattmns]

You mean besides knowing what the human species is and how it got to be that way?

Are you talking about the human species in the biological sense? Because I don't remember that stuff in any of the history classes I have taken. Or are you talking about what defines our civilization, and our culture? In which case, I would have to ask what is the use of such information?

 

[rachmaninoff]

In which case, I would have to ask what is the use of such information?

And what is the point of not knowing anything - of stumbling around in complete ignorance of one's own surroundings?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Yes I understand, what I am asking, however, is are there any other uses?

Here is another question: How has who you voted for in an election been influence by your knowledge of history? And when I say history I mean something you learned in a High School/College US/World History class.

I can say that looking at what George W Bush did in his first 4 years of president influenced me to not vote for him in his second term, but that did not require any knowledge of what is taught in a High School/College US/World History class, at least where I go to school (granted I have taken only four college history classes, three of which were lower, freshman, level).

Indian reservations.
Slave reperations.
The Cuban Embargo.
Ect ect...
Alot of political issues would require a historical context to even understand what the hell everyone's talking about.

 

[mattmns]

And what is the point of not knowing anything - of stumbling around in complete ignorance of one's own surroundings?

So it is good to know anything, even if this knowledge of anything is useless?

Indian reservations.
Slave reperations.
The Cuban Embargo.
Ect ect...
Alot of political issues would require a historical context to even understand what the hell everyone's talking about.

Ahh ok, now these are good, thanks for the clarification!So are there any other uses for History other than politics? I am not saying politics is a bad use of history, it is in fact a very good use, but I am asking if this is the only use.

 

[Bystander]

Tulips, South Seas Bubble --- remember those and Slick Willie's SEC can OK all the dot.com IPOs it wants without destroying several trillion dollars of capital.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

So are there any other uses for History other than politics? I am not saying politics is a bad use of history, it is in fact a very good use, but I am asking if this is the only use.

The next biggest would likely be understanding historical context in literature.

 

[devious_]

Here I was thinking this thread would contain (for some reason) an article written by Fields medalist http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Cohen.html" addressing the disgrace that is high school mathematics, but instead I find this mindless drivel.

I honestly can't believe someone actually thinks basic algebra is useless! And besides, someone who fails something that simple SIX TIMES IN A ROW does not merit a high school diploma. Seriously, it's actually harder to fail algebra I six times than to pass it.

 

[Atomos]

"If I didn't really learn anything from it, it must be worthless, because the value of something revolves around what I gained from it".

It doesnt?