Calculating air drag for a massive rocket

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating air drag for a massive rocket, particularly focusing on how air density changes with altitude and its impact on drag calculations. Participants explore theoretical and practical aspects of aerodynamics, including the use of formulas and numerical methods for modeling rocket flight dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about resources for calculating air drag for rockets that reach space, emphasizing the need to consider changing air density with altitude.
  • Another participant provides formulas for lift and drag forces, noting that density at sea level is typically assumed and that actual velocity calculations require accounting for changing density and other factors.
  • A participant expresses doubt about obtaining an explicit function of time for the calculations.
  • One reply humorously suggests using calculus to handle changing variables like air density, while also indicating that real-world applications may require numerical integration methods due to complexity.
  • A participant shares an old equation for air pressure and density at various altitudes, highlighting the complications of drag calculations near or beyond supersonic speeds and mentioning the need for reliable sources of formulas.
  • Another participant reiterates the importance of calculus and numerical integration in real-world ballistic problems, suggesting that advanced methods like Runge-Kutta may be necessary for accurate predictions.
  • A later reply indicates that the participant is successfully applying the equations at intervals to model conditions similar to a Saturn V rocket, and seeks clarification on using density as a function of height and the relationship between drag coefficient and Reynolds number.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the need to account for changing air density and the complexity of drag calculations, but there is no consensus on a single method or approach to achieve accurate results. Multiple perspectives on the use of calculus and numerical methods are presented.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific equations for air density and pressure at various altitudes, as well as the unresolved nature of how to effectively model drag coefficients in relation to Reynolds number and velocity.

Noone1982
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
Not just a little rocket that goes a 1000 feet in the air, but one that can get into space. How does one take into account that the air density grows less with altitude, etc?

Anyone know of any good resources for a problem like this?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Usual practrice in aerodynamics is to work in "indicated airspeed" by assuming sea level density (1.225 kg/m^3). If you want actual velocity you need to account for density. General formulae:

L = 1/2 . p . v^2 . S . Cl

D = 1/2 . p . V^2 . S . Cd

Where :

L = Lift Force
D = Drag Force
p = density (1.225 kg/m^3 @ sea level)
V = velocity
S = surface area
Cl = coefficient of lift
Cd = coefficient of drag

Depending how complicated you want to go will have changing density, acceleration, and Cd with Reynolds number due to velocity so you will have either to estimate by calculation in small incriments or use integration. Good luck.

Ken
 
So, I suppose I can't get it as an explicit function of time.
 
When one of your variables changes (like air density at various altitudes), and you have a formula for how it changes (like air density at various altitudes), there's this marvelous mathematical tool that let's you do calculations. It's called "calculus." Get an adult to help. :-p
 
An old equation I found for up to 300,000 feet (more boundaries above this):

Code:
 pressure

  P_0 = 14.7 psi
  p= P_0*(1-6.8755856*10^-6 h)^5.2558797    h<36,089.24ft
  p_Tr= 0.2233609*P_0                  
  p=p_Tr*exp(-4.806346*10^-5(h-36089.24)) h>36,089.24ft 

 density

  rho_0 = 2.06 lb mass / cubic yard
  rho=rho_0*(1.- 6.8755856*10^-6 h)^4.2558797 h<36,089.24ft
  rho_Tr=0.2970756*rho_0
  rho=rho_Tr*exp(-4.806346*10^-5(h-36089.24)) h>36,089.24ft

The only link I found.

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/atmosphere/TH1.htm

Drag versus speed gets complicated once you're near or beyond supersonic. The range above .95 to 1.00 is different than below .95. The range between Mach 1.0 and Mach 1.4 is different than above Mach 1.4.

Regarding sources, obviously NASA and space oriented companies deal with this stuff all the time, but I wasn't able to find any links with all the required formulas.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dense said:
When one of your variables changes (like air density at various altitudes), and you have a formula for how it changes (like air density at various altitudes), there's this marvelous mathematical tool that let's you do calculations. It's called "calculus."
Unlike the abstract world of ideal equations, ballistics invovling high altitudes is too complicated to intergrate directly. So after spending a year learning to solve all sorts of differential equations in a class, you find in the real world that many situations are too complicated to solve directly, and you end up using numerical intergration (like Runge-Kutta). Think of this as "advanced spread sheet math". You have a set of formulas that calculate an acceleration vector given position and velocity vector. Numerical integration is then used to "predict" a new position and velocity vector based on the current acceleration vector over a small step in time. The process is repeated in order to calculate a path. Runge Kutta speeds this process up by "remembering" values from mutlple previous steps.

Then there is real world testing of high speed aerodynamics. Rocket sleds can be fun:

http://www.46tg.af.mil/world_record.htm
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks everyone. I am stepping through the equations at 0.1 second intervals and my results are fairly close to conditions of a Saturn V rocket at 80 seconds into flight.

For the air drag, I intend to use what Ken put forth:

D_{f}\; =\; \frac{1}{2}\mbox{C}_{d}pV^{2}\mbox{S}

Now, I can presumably just have the density as a function of height. Now Cd is just the reynolds number as a function of velocity?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
4K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
9K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
5K