Do Falling Particles in Schwarzschild Solution Radiate?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether particles falling into a black hole described by the Schwarzschild solution radiate, focusing on the nature of radiation (gravitational and electromagnetic) and the conditions under which it occurs. The scope includes theoretical considerations and implications of test particles in general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if the infalling cloud of particles is spherically symmetric, then there is no radiation due to Birkhoff's theorem.
  • Others argue that for a single infalling particle, the radiated power is proportional to the mass raised to a power p, where p>1, suggesting that for infinitesimally small masses, radiation becomes negligible.
  • It is noted that if a mass m infalls toward another mass, gravitational radiation is produced, but if m is infinitesimally small, it does not radiate.
  • Some participants discuss the distinction between gravitational radiation and electromagnetic radiation, questioning whether the original inquiry pertains to gravitational or electromagnetic radiation.
  • One participant mentions that a uniformly charged infalling spherical cloud will not radiate electromagnetic radiation due to the absence of propagating monopole modes.
  • The complexity of electromagnetic radiation by free-falling particles is acknowledged, referencing a classic paper on the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the distinction between gravitational and electromagnetic radiation, but there remains disagreement on the conditions under which radiation occurs and the implications of particle mass on radiation. The discussion does not reach a consensus on whether falling particles radiate.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to the definitions of radiation types and the assumptions about particle mass and charge. The implications of these factors on the nature of radiation remain unresolved.

Passionflower
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Consider the Schwarzschild solution where millions of test particles move towards the event horizon.

Will the particles falling in radiate? If so, how can they radiate as they do not have any proper acceleration?
 
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Passionflower said:
Consider the Schwarzschild solution where millions of test particles move towards the event horizon.

Will the particles falling in radiate?

If the infalling cloud is spherically symmetric, then there is no radiation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkhoff's_theorem_(relativity)

In the case of a single infalling particle, the radiated power is proportional to the mass of the test particle raised to some power p, where p>1. (I believe p=2 for a small mass infalling toward a large mass.) The whole idea of a test particle is that we're taking the limit where its mass is small, and therefore if the radiated power is proportional to m^p, it becomes negligible, in the sense that the square of an infinitesimal number dx is negligible compared to the original number dx. If radiation by a test particle wasn't negligible in this sense, then there would be no way to define geodesics using test particles.

Passionflower said:
If so, how can they radiate as they do not have any proper acceleration?

If a mass m infalls toward another mass, yes, you will get gravitational radiation. If m is infinitesimally small (the case of a test particle), then there is no radiation. If m is not infinitesimally small, then it radiates, but it also doesn't follow a geodesic, so it's not true that it experiences zero proper acceleration.
 
bcrowell said:
In the case of a single infalling particle, the radiated power is proportional to the mass of the test particle raised to some power p, where p>1. (I believe p=2 for a small mass infalling toward a large mass.)
Agreed, assuming you speak of gravitational radiation here.

bcrowell said:
If m is not infinitesimally small, then it radiates, but it also doesn't follow a geodesic, so it's not true that it experiences zero proper acceleration.
So in addition to gravitational radiation, when it accelerates is must also radiate EM radiation do you agree?
 
Passionflower said:
Agreed, assuming you speak of gravitational radiation here.


So in addition to gravitational radiation, when it accelerates is must also radiate EM radiation do you agree?

Was your original question intended to be about gravitational radiation, or elecromagnetic radiation? I took it as a question about gravitational radiation, since you didn't state that the particles were charged.

A uniformly charged infalling spherical cloud will not radiate EM radiation. The reason is the same as for gravitational radiation: neither gravitational waves nor EM waves have propagating monopole modes.

Anyway, the issue of EM radiation by free-falling particles is complicated. The classic paper is C. Morette-DeWitt and B.S. DeWitt, "Falling Charges," Physics, 1,3-20 (1964), available at http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/EM/dewitt_physics_1_3_64.pdf This issue has been discussed many times on this forum within the last year, so there's not much point in repeating the discussion.
 
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