Question in finding Green's function

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding the Green's function for the Poisson equation in a rectangular region with zero boundary conditions. Participants explore the mathematical formulation and manipulation of series representations involving the Laplacian operator and its relation to the Green's function.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the problem of finding the Green's function ##G(x,y,x_0,y_0)## for the equation ##\nabla^2 u(x,y)=f(x,y)## and outlines a series solution involving sums over indices ##m## and ##n##.
  • Another participant asserts that the indices ##m## and ##n## are dummy variables, suggesting that the summation can be manipulated without affecting the outcome, allowing ##\nabla^2 u## to be taken outside the summation.
  • Some participants clarify that while ##\nabla^2 u## can be treated independently of the summation indices, the coefficients ##E_{mn}## and ##\lambda_{mn}## are dependent on those indices.
  • There is a reiteration that ##\nabla^2 u## is a function of ##x## and ##y## only, and its representation as a sum over indices does not imply it is constant with respect to those variables.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the independence of the Laplacian operator from the summation indices but express differing views on the implications of this independence and the treatment of the coefficients involved. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the manipulation of the sums and the role of the indices.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that the treatment of dummy indices in summations can lead to different interpretations of the mathematical expressions involved, highlighting the need for careful consideration of dependencies in the equations.

yungman
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Consider ##\nabla^2 u(x,y)=f(x,y)## in rectangular region bounded by (0,0),(0,b),(a,b)(a,0). And ##u(x,y)=0## on the boundary. Find Green's function ##G(x,y,x_0,y_0)##.

For Poisson's eq, let
u(x_0,y_0)=\sum_{m=1}^{\infty}\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}E_{mn}\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x_0\right)\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y_0\right)
\Rightarrow\;\nabla^2 u=-\sum_{m=1}^{\infty}\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}E_{mn}\lambda_{mn}\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y\right)
\hbox{Where}\;\lambda_{mn}=(\frac{m\pi}{a})^2+(\frac {n\pi}{b})^2
Skipping a few steps:

E_{mn}=-\frac{4}{ab\lambda_{mn}}\int_0^a\int_0^b \nabla^2 u\;\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y\right)\;dydx

\Rightarrow\;u(x_0,y_0)=\sum_{m=1}^{\infty}\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}E_{mn} \sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x_0\right) \sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y_0\right)= \sum_{m=1}^{\infty}\sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \left[- \frac{4}{ab\lambda_{mn}}\int_0^b\int_0^b \nabla^2 u\;\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x\right) \;dydx \right] \sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x_0\right)\;\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y_0\right)

For Poisson eq with zero boundary
u(x_0,y_0)=\frac{1}{2\pi}\int_0^a\int_0^b\; \nabla^2 u\;G(x,y,x_0,y_0)\;dydx
\Rightarrow\;u(x_0,y_0)=\frac{1}{2\pi}\int_0^a\int_0^b\; \nabla^2 u\;G(x,y,x_0,y_0)\;dydx= \sum_{m=1}^{\infty}\sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \left[\left(-\frac{4}{ab\lambda_{mn}}\int_0^b\int_0^a \nabla^2 u\;\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y\right) \;dydx\right) \sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x_0\right)\;\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y_0\right) \right]

=\sum_{m=1}^{\infty}\sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \int_0^b \int_0^a \nabla^2 u\;\frac{-4}{ab\lambda_{mn}}\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y\right) \sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x_0\right)\;\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y_0\right)dydx\; \hbox{ (1)}


The book gave the next step:

u(x_0,y_0)=\int_0^a\int_0^b\; \nabla^2u \left[ \sum_{m=1}^{\infty}\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}-\frac{4}{ab\lambda_{mn}}\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y\right)\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x_0\right)\;\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y_0\right)\right] \;dydx \;\hbox{ (2)}

Compare (1) and (2) above, How can you move the ##\sum_{m=1}^{\infty}\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}## inside the integral and pass ##\nabla^2u## where
\nabla^2 u=-\sum_{m=1}^{\infty}\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}E_{mn}\lambda_{mn}\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y\right)
 
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##m## and ##n## are dummy indices. The two sums, i.e., the one in the equation of ##\nabla^2 u## and the one in the equation for ##u(x_0,y_0)## are distinct. Changing ##m## and ##n## to ##m'## and ##n'## or ##k## and ##l## in the equation for ##\nabla^2 u## will not change the result.

Therefore, in the equation for ##u(x_0,y_0)##, ##\nabla^2 u## is independent of ##m,n## and can be taken outside the summation.
 
DrClaude said:
##m## and ##n## are dummy indices. The two sums, i.e., the one in the equation of ##\nabla^2 u## and the one in the equation for ##u(x_0,y_0)## are distinct. Changing ##m## and ##n## to ##m'## and ##n'## or ##k## and ##l## in the equation for ##\nabla^2 u## will not change the result.

Therefore, in the equation for ##u(x_0,y_0)##, ##\nabla^2 u## is independent of ##m,n## and can be taken outside the summation.

But ##E_{mn}## and ##\lambda_{mn}## is dependent on ##m,n##.

as##\nabla^2 u=-\sum_{m=1}^{\infty}\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}E_{mn}\lambda_{mn}\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y\right) ##
Thanks
 
yungman said:
But ##E_{mn}## and ##\lambda_{mn}## is dependent on ##m,n##.

as##\nabla^2 u=-\sum_{m=1}^{\infty}\sum_{n=1}^{\infty}E_{mn}\lambda_{mn}\sin\left(\frac{m\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{n\pi}{b}y\right) ##
Thanks
And that is why there is a sum over ##m## and ##n## in there. But ##\nabla^2 u## is a function of ##x## and ##y## only. If you are still confused, just write
$$
\nabla^2 u=-\sum_{i=1}^{\infty}\sum_{j=1}^{\infty}E_{ij}\lambda_{ij}\sin\left(\frac{i\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{j\pi}{b}y\right)
$$
 
DrClaude said:
And that is why there is a sum over ##m## and ##n## in there. But ##\nabla^2 u## is a function of ##x## and ##y## only. If you are still confused, just write
$$
\nabla^2 u=-\sum_{i=1}^{\infty}\sum_{j=1}^{\infty}E_{ij}\lambda_{ij}\sin\left(\frac{i\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{j\pi}{b}y\right)
$$

Thanks
So what you are saying

##\nabla^2 u=-\sum_{i=1}^{\infty}\sum_{j=1}^{\infty}E_{ij}\lambda_{ij}\sin\left(\frac{i\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{j\pi}{b}y\right)##

is just one big lump totally independent to the summation of (m,n). So far as the whole function, ##\nabla^2u## is a constant.
 
yungman said:
Thanks
So what you are saying

##\nabla^2 u=-\sum_{i=1}^{\infty}\sum_{j=1}^{\infty}E_{ij}\lambda_{ij}\sin\left(\frac{i\pi}{a}x\right)\sin\left(\frac{j\pi}{b}y\right)##

is just one big lump totally independent to the summation of (m,n). So far as the whole function, ##\nabla^2u## is a constant.

Independent of the indices of the summation, yes, but still dependent on ##x## and ##y##. (It is the Laplacian of a function ##u(x,y)##, after all.)
 
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