$1000 offer to the poor for sterilization

[Ivan Seeking]

... Louisiana Republican State Rep. John LaBruzzo to start thinking about ways to stem generational welfare, in which many welfare recipients have children who also end up dependent on government assistance, according to the representative.

His idea -- giving $1,000 to poor women to undergo reproductive sterilization by Fallopian tube ligation -- is stirring up controversy among some medical professionals, who say that the proposal is offensive and smacks of long-discredited eugenics programs.

LaBruzzo has also suggested other controversial ideas: paying poor men to get vasectomies and giving tax incentives for college-educated wealthy couples to have more children. [continued]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=5886592&page=1

 

[Moonbear]

Ugh! Why not just fund birth control prescriptions instead of permanent sterilization? That's really all that's needed for those who don't want children, can't afford children, and can't afford birth control. Permanent sterilization DOES smack of eugenics, and also sends the message that nobody expects these people to ever get their lives together and get off welfare...at which time they might be able to afford kids and want them, but then are sterile.

Or, here's another crazy idea...a social support network for the kids to get them into school and to stay in school so they graduate and can get at least a halfway decent job and break the welfare cycle.

 

[tribdog]

I'll get a vasectomy for $1000. If you all want to start a fund, feel free

 

[turbo]

I'll get a vasectomy for $1000. If you all want to start a fund, feel free

Go ahead and get one. When Lindsey Lohan approaches you to fertilize her the "old fashioned" way so she and her DJ girlfriend can have babies, you'll have a lot of chances to "try" until she smartens up and sends you to be tested to see if you have motile sperm. By then you'll have your own paparazzi stalkers.

 

[Moonbear]

I'll get a vasectomy for $1000. If you all want to start a fund, feel free

Though, it would be a great bargain for a menopausal woman on welfare to take the $1000 and get her tubes tied...not like she's using them anyway.

 

[turbo]

Though, it would be a great bargain for a menopausal woman on welfare to take the $1000 and get her tubes tied...not like she's using them anyway.

Gay men would be getting a bonus, too, if they didn't plan on procreating.

 

[Chi Meson]

Ugh! Why not just fund birth control prescriptions instead of permanent sterilization? That's really all that's needed for those who don't want children, can't afford children, and can't afford birth control. Permanent sterilization DOES smack of eugenics, and also sends the message that nobody expects these people to ever get their lives together and get off welfare...at which time they might be able to afford kids and want them, but then are sterile.

Government sponsored birth control? Naw, that's liberal's misguided idea. Best to go in with a knife. That's god's way. :ironic smiley:

 

[tribdog]

Go ahead and get one. When Lindsey Lohan approaches you to fertilize her the "old fashioned" way so she and her DJ girlfriend can have babies, you'll have a lot of chances to "try" until she smartens up and sends you to be tested to see if you have motile sperm. By then you'll have your own paparazzi stalkers.

tested? is that a pun? Its funny if you think about it.

 

[Astronuc]

Ugh! Why not just fund birth control prescriptions instead of permanent sterilization? That's really all that's needed for those who don't want children, can't afford children, and can't afford birth control. Permanent sterilization DOES smack of eugenics, and also sends the message that nobody expects these people to ever get their lives together and get off welfare...at which time they might be able to afford kids and want them, but then are sterile.

Or, here's another crazy idea...a social support network for the kids to get them into school and to stay in school so they graduate and can get at least a halfway decent job and break the welfare cycle.

It's easier said than done. My wife and daughter are helping a family friend who is a social worker. She's taken in twins (born when mom was 17 who barely finished 8th grade) and another child from two mothers who come from abusive (violent) families and have drug and alcohol abuse problems. Both mothers have been in treatment programs and have been given numerous supports. Both mothers are now pregnant again - despite restrictions on seeing boyfriends (e.g. no guys allowed to spend the night or visit their respective apartments).

 

[binzing]

NOBODY on this forum gets to say that they want one! We need more smart people...

 

[tribdog]

no body? come on. I can think of at least four.

 

[binzing]

Who might those be? Though with your temperament perhaps it'd take you down a few notches...Ha ha.

 

[NeoDevin]

NOBODY on this forum gets to say that they want one! We need more smart people...

I've already got a son, can I take advantage of the offer?

 

[Math Jeans]

NOBODY on this forum gets to say that they want one! We need more smart people...

That's not fair. I'm not old enough yet :tongue:.

 

[Borek]

Why not just fund birth control prescriptions instead of permanent sterilization?

It won't work. You have to be systematic with prescribed drugs, you have to remember to take them, you have to know how to take them. That's often a difficult task even for so called "educated" people. No idea how it looks in US but it would not surprise me if huge part of your students have no idea how these drugs should be used, at least that's nothing unusual here; needles to say those that ended their education earlier know even less.


Edit: mental note, don't answer before reading thread to the end. Basically Astro aims at the same problem.

 

[vanesch]

Yesterday I had my cat sterilized. Could I get, say, $500,- ?

 

[tribdog]

Who might those be? Though with your temperament perhaps it'd take you down a few notches...Ha ha.

better make that five.

 

[Moonbear]

It's easier said than done. My wife and daughter are helping a family friend who is a social worker. She's taken in twins (born when mom was 17 who barely finished 8th grade) and another child from two mothers who come from abusive (violent) families and have drug and alcohol abuse problems. Both mothers have been in treatment programs and have been given numerous supports. Both mothers are now pregnant again - despite restrictions on seeing boyfriends (e.g. no guys allowed to spend the night or visit their respective apartments).

Didn't your mom ever tell you that doing the right thing is never easy? Besides, there's a difference between a support group and GOOD support.

How is telling 17 or 18 year olds not to have boyfriends visit going to work? That's the idiocy of so many of these programs; they don't take reality into account. If someone is already having kids they can't afford, and already having to give them up, it's pretty unrealistic to think they're going to stop having sex. It's also pretty unrealistic to think they can afford or even get to regular doctor's visits for birth control prescriptions, or to afford the prescription itself.

It won't work. You have to be systematic with prescribed drugs, you have to remember to take them, you have to know how to take them. That's often a difficult task even for so called "educated" people. No idea how it looks in US but it would not surprise me if huge part of your students have no idea how these drugs should be used, at least that's nothing unusual here; needles to say those that ended their education earlier know even less.

You're assuming these people WANT babies they can't take care of...if the only obstacle is affording the birth control (which is not just the prescription, but the doctor visits that need to accompany it, and the transportation to the doctor), even if only half of them followed through, that would be that many fewer babies being raised on government funds.

There are also birth control options that do NOT require taking a daily pill...things like Depo Provera. Once a month injection. For women who have already had a baby and don't want any more, there are things like Mirena (it's labeled only for use in women who have given birth at least once...I've never found out exactly why, but I suspect it might have to do with uterine size). Fairly new to the US market (I don't know if it's been available abroad sooner, but it was in clinical trials back 15 years ago...might have just taken this long to get through the full pipeline) is the Nuva Ring. None of these require taking a pill every day, work from 1 month (Depo Provera and Nuva Ring) to 5 years (Mirena) and are all fully reversible, with no worse side effects than the pill (Mirena may have less, and Depo can be prescribed to those who have problems with blood clots when taking the estrogenic pills).

 

[Borek]

You're assuming these people WANT babies they can't take care of...

No, I am not assuming anything. All I am stating is that for some people birth control will not work, because it requires some level of sophistication and thinking, and these are things that they simply don't have.

There are also birth control options that do NOT require taking a daily pill...

Been maried for over 20 years, and we have been through many options, including intrauterine dvices, so I am pretty well informed. Still, they don't work forever. My wife works at school, she is not a teacher, she mostly deals with "difficult cases" - wide spectrum from ADHD to kids from social margin families. You will not believe in the level of irresponsibility some people show. That's the sad reality you have referred to in your post.

Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that $1000 option is a good solution, it is just obvious for me what are limitations of other ideas.

 

[Art]

Maybe pay them a lesser amount to have something like Implanon implanted which prevents pregnancy for 3 years leaving their options open for the future.

 

[Astronuc]

Didn't your mom ever tell you that doing the right thing is never easy? Besides, there's a difference between a support group and GOOD support.

How is telling 17 or 18 year olds not to have boyfriends visit going to work? That's the idiocy of so many of these programs; they don't take reality into account. If someone is already having kids they can't afford, and already having to give them up, it's pretty unrealistic to think they're going to stop having sex. It's also pretty unrealistic to think they can afford or even get to regular doctor's visits for birth control prescriptions, or to afford the prescription itself.

I agree with you, MB. A lot of the programs dealing with the poor and abused are rather poor. In most cases, government (or rather taxpayers) do not want to pay for good support. Social workers do not make good wages/salaries.

The younger mother was supposed to stay out of bars, but she went to one and got into an altercation, which lead to police involvement. She also under the drinking age, but that doesn't stop her from obtaining and drinking alcohol.

I also heard not long ago that a big problem with the welfare system are the boyfriends living with (or simply visiting) unmarried welfare moms, creating more kids who will most likely live on welfare and not do well in school, because their parents will do little or nothing to support the education of their children. And I see this everyday where I live - because we have various welfare agencies and a check cashing store in the neighborhood where I work.

 

[JasonRox]

My entire family is full of welfare cases from birth until death. I'm lucky that I got one father that turned his life around. He was an alcoholic and all that. And my other uncle, he never seemed to have abused anything and seems like he left the family, and then the family left him (we're all in Ontario while he's in Quebec). So two good individuals out of like 10-12 (large family).

My mom comes from a very poor family. They got church funds to live, nevermind government funds. My mother now has a great job but is very materialistic for some reason.

My father lives within his means and since separation, everything just got better for him.

Anyways, our family is good. My cousin had no parental support at all. He came to our house every weekend for like 2 years. We were suppose to adopt him.

What's it like? Well, the entire family looks at us like we're "rich", when we are not. They label themselves as "poor" (which they are) but in a way that no one understands them.

Even if you offered help and everything, they will still distinctively label themselves as someone you don't understand and separate themselves from you.

It's very strange. It makes helping them impossible.

Note: I didn't go into detail about things. Just keeping it short.

 

[Math Jeans]

Yesterday I had my cat sterilized. Could I get, say, $500,- ?

Is your cat poor?

 

[tribdog]

Is your cat poor?

He's poor at math and spelling, but a whiz at geography. go figure.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Maybe pay them a lesser amount to have something like Implanon implanted which prevents pregnancy for 3 years leaving their options open for the future.

I'm not sure about over in Ireland but people around here are sue happy. If you can find some poor people who will accept a pitence in exchange for a certain major life/medical decision I assure you there will be at least one who will bring a lawsuit for having been coaxed under duress. I believe the argument that offering a person who is poor money for making such decisions amounts to a decision made under duress has already been used successfully in cases where couples paid poor young women to be their surrogates.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Just FYI: I recall that a good number of years ago, men in India could get a free transistor radio [yes, that many years ago] if they had a vasectomy.

[edit spelling, vesectomy, vasectomy... ]

 

[Borek]

Men sterilization won't work. It is enough that one is left.

 

[tribdog]

you stud you

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What happens in China if a couple has too many babies? And what about unmarried mothers?

 

[tribdog]

I think burlap sacks are free at the riverside for those pesky extra daughters.

 

[SticksandStones]

What happens in China if a couple has too many babies? And what about unmarried mothers?

Depends. I'm tutoring a young Chinese women who has an older sister, and possibly a brother [I don't remember]. However, she was from the very rural north and thus was far removed from the overflowing areas in Beijing.

 

[thewhills]

How about a new program...Mandatory Birth Control until age 18.

Our systems are anti-poor.
You can't pay your bills, they charge you more.
You can't pay the extra bills or taxes, they throw you in jail.
You can't earn money in jail, so you exit jail with debt.

 

[Chi Meson]

How about a new program...Mandatory Birth Control until age 18.

Our systems are anti-poor.
You can't pay your bills, they charge you more.

true in some some cases. not so in others. Often utilities have payment assistance programs where folks with difficulty receive assistance from the utilities and other customers of the utilities. It varies region to region. SOmetimes medical fees for the same procedure are MORE for those who do NOT have insurance. I've heard the explanation many times, but it still makes no sense. The other side of the coin, those who simply cannot pay medical bills have their costs absorbed by everyone else. All you have to do is be persistent in being poor for many years after the treatment. And again, in some areas (especialy those places with University hospitals) "indigent care" (fancy name for "the poor") is covered.

You can't pay the extra bills or taxes, they throw you in jail.

Well, not right away. There are so many credit assistance programs; and local governments try to come up with a plan to have you pay as much of your taxes as possible, you really have to be deliberately derelict for years before you serve any jailtime for debt. Unless your debt is due to outright fraud, and then that's a crime, not a dereliction.

You can't earn money in jail, so you exit jail with debt.

And that one is totally untrue. Depending on the nature of one's conviction, and which state you are in, you can work for pay in prison. It's usually less than minimum wage, but it is work. Many people in prison send money home to their families from prison.

If you are in a maximum security prison, you probably don't have that opportunity, but then again, you are not sent to a max for not being able to pay your bills.


I don't disagree in your main point.