82-year-old who claims he has not had any food or water

[Shalashaska]

The guy is doing it voluntarily; it's simply a matter of asking his permission to monitor him.


Because the proof is on the pudding.

I guess it depends on what you consider "busted". Him breathing some moisture on his breath is a far cry from him going six days without water with no deleterious effects.

Hey - maybe his manna only replenishes him once every 24 hours Seriously though, your short-term samplings fail to capture the gross effect.

Ok, let me put it another way... he's 82 years old, and either desperate for attention/money or mad as a march hare. Test his A1c, image him until he glows in the dark, and unless someone can offer an explanation as to how human anatomy can violate thermodynamics, conservation of energy, and more, I don't see the need for this test.

I understand that you also think this guy is a few sandwiches short of a picnic (which he would clearly disdain), but at 82, when his body begins to metabolize his own muscle tissue, that could box in his kidneys VERY rapidly when you add dehydration to the mix. Can we really say that a man who claims to have existed by dint of magic is capable of informed consent?

I don't object to an old man sticking himself in a box until he dies, although I dislike the idea. I HATE the notion of medical doctors ignoring the axiom to do no harm. It may not be in the Hippocratic Oath, but it's a good notion regardless. If he were in a prison, he would be fed and hydrated against his will, and for a damned good reason.

 

[zomgwtf]

I would not consider this to be conclusive.

It's one thing to project that it "must be" or "cannot be", it's another to measure it. I'd want to see it over a period of time that makes the results irrefutable.

So starve him until he dies? This isn't something that medicine should take part in... it's quite disturbing. He should be treated properly like any other individual attempting to starve themselves to death whether that requires drugs or force feedings or both, doesn't matter at all to me. He can go starve himself in his village where his believers will hopefully see it for what it is; fraud.

 

[Shalashaska]

So starve him until he dies? This isn't something that medicine should take part in... it's quite disturbing. He should be treated properly like any other individual attempting to starve themselves to death whether that requires drugs or force feedings or both, doesn't matter at all to me. He can go starve himself in his village where his believers will hopefully see it for what it is; fraud.

Amen. Just as doctors shouldn't be administering lethal injections, they should not abrogate their responsibilities for the sake of a mystical fascination or purity of the scientific method.

 

[DaveC426913]

So starve him until he dies?

For Pete's Sake what's wrong with you people? Are you being [doublyitalicized]deliberately[/doublyitalicized] obtuse??

If he exhibits deleterious effects, you stop the exam and you've debunked his claim.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

An Indian man claims this? If the laws there do not prohibit this test, that's all there is to it. The notion of subsisting without food and water is of deep significance in some religions. I believe it to be hogwash, but if there is no law to stop this, and as he is unlikely to be harmed as a result of this, it is pointless to object. If he is, 82 is a fairly long life.

 

[eveo]

i don't understand why law goes so far as to keep YOURSELF over harming yourself. if I want to harm my body, that is a factor of my own stupidity and let it be. the man wants to test himself, he holds dominion over himself not anyone else so let it be. plus he has immediate care awaiting him if ANYTHING goes wrong so I'm not seeing the debate here.

it gets to the point where the imposition of well-being is counter-productive.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

i don't understand why law goes so far as to keep YOURSELF over harming yourself. if I want to harm my body, that is a factor of my own stupidity and let it be. the man wants to test himself, he holds dominion over himself not anyone else so let it be. plus he has immediate care awaiting him if ANYTHING goes wrong so I'm not seeing the debate here.

it gets to the point where the imposition of well-being is counter-productive.

It is assumed, beyond morality, that sane people do not wish to commit harm upon themselves. If you attempt suicide, you will not go to jail, but a hospital. Harm to oneself can lead to harming others, and there is a moral dimension to this. People already take part in Phase I clinical trials, that are a gamble of their lives, yes? Suicide in terminal patients is regularly assisted, something that any medical doctor or nurse knows. You can drink until you black out, smoke until you die of cancer or obstructive ling disease, and play with knives if you wish. That is a lot of freedom to do harm I think.

 

[Matterwave]

Anyone have an update? Since in April 28 he hasn't eaten for 6 days, today should be his 11th or 12th day without food OR water (unless of course he's given up since then).

To go without food for 12 days isn't too difficult if you have the fat to back it up (which he doesn't really seem to), but going without water for 12 days is pretty extraordinary...even without the dehydrating effects of heat or some such.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Anyone have an update? Since in April 28 he hasn't eaten for 6 days, today should be his 11th or 12th day without food OR water (unless of course he's given up since then).

To go without food for 12 days isn't too difficult if you have the fat to back it up (which he doesn't really seem to), but going without water for 12 days is pretty extraordinary...even without the dehydrating effects of heat or some such.

Must be a scam if he is still alive and well, or it is time to convert to Hinduism. ;)

 

[Hepth]

I hate how there really is no information about this beyond the basically one copied article. I haven't seen a hospital, doctor, scientist, university, or research lab's name. Which scientists are doing this and where? I assume he'll stop after 10 days and they won't even bother reporting that he was a fraud, and it'll just die out.

 

[eveo]

It is assumed, beyond morality, that sane people do not wish to commit harm upon themselves. If you attempt suicide, you will not go to jail, but a hospital. Harm to oneself can lead to harming others, and there is a moral dimension to this. People already take part in Phase I clinical trials, that are a gamble of their lives, yes? Suicide in terminal patients is regularly assisted, something that any medical doctor or nurse knows. You can drink until you black out, smoke until you die of cancer or obstructive ling disease, and play with knives if you wish. That is a lot of freedom to do harm I think.

should still be my decision. morality is subjective.

 

[DaveC426913]

I hate how there really is no information about this beyond the basically one copied article.

Welcome to the 21st century. A world where the average attention span for any news arti ...

Hey look! Cows!

 

[DaveC426913]

should still be my decision. morality is subjective.

Sorry, 'tis the way of the world that, by definition, suicide attempts are a sign of psychological imbalance.

 

[zomgwtf]

For Pete's Sake what's wrong with you people? Are you being [doublyitalicized]deliberately[/doublyitalicized] obtuse??

If he exhibits deleterious effects, you stop the exam and you've debunked his claim.

That's for HIM and his believers to do on their time. Not for medical staff to take part in, it's a hospital not a religious-scientist centre. I can almost gurantee if this happened here in Canada that the man would NOT be put in isolation and not fed.

If he wants to go be a science-rat for the Indian national defense then he can go march over to their headquarters. If he wants to make people in towns believe him then he should go to such towns and preach.

I don't think this is obtuse at all. I think YOUR being obtuse about the situation in regard to medical staff being involved in starving a human being.

 

[zomgwtf]

i don't understand why law goes so far as to keep YOURSELF over harming yourself.

The law prevents you from doing this? I'm pretty sure if I wanted to I could fast for a month... which legal officials will arrest me for this behaviour? Or if I want to cut myself or stab myself etc. etc.. Only if suicide is involved and even then your not breaking the law (unless you DO kill yourself) but they are attempting to give presumably well-needed help.

It's a well-known fact that many people who attempt to commit suicide don't actually want to die... as they find out when they are 2 seconds into freefall. (stat obviously from people with failed-suicide attempts) Most suicide cases are also treatable... so I think that makes it clear that suicide is a psychological issue which should be dealt with in a society.

This is vastly different however. This would be the same situation as saying to the hospital that you would like for them to kill you. (You being a perfectly normal/average person with no illnesses or disabilities) Or you telling the hospital that you have an amazing ability in that you can bleed for weeks and still live perfectly fine and so the doctors put you in lockdown and start bleeding you out until something goes wrong. --messed up.

But hey, the guys 82 years old anyways so who cares about if he dies. At least a point will be made!

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't think this is obtuse at all. I think YOUR being obtuse about the situation in regard to medical staff being involved in starving a human being.

You are behaving as if the 'first signs of deterioration' and 'death' are rubbing shoulders.

He chooses not to eat or drink, we monitor this. We detect the first signs of dehydration, we stop the test.

You're a smart guy; not acknowledging that reasonable sequence of events must be deliberate obtusity.

 

[zomgwtf]

You are behaving as if the 'first signs of deterioration' and 'death' are rubbing shoulders.

For an 82 year old? It definitely could be.

That's beside the point though. My point is that this is not something that should take place in hospitals or with doctors etc. administering.

 

[DaveC426913]

For an 82 year old? It definitely could be.

That's beside the point though. My point is that this is not something that should take place in hospitals or with doctors etc. administering.

But you're being absurdly unbalanced when giving credit to the opposing argument, when you say:

"So starve him until he dies?"

 

[GeorginaS]

For Pete's Sake what's wrong with you people? Are you being [doublyitalicized]deliberately[/doublyitalicized] obtuse??

OT -- That was seriously impressive. Doubly, even. I'm in awe.

Sorry for the interruption.

 

[eveo]

Sorry, 'tis the way of the world that, by definition, suicide attempts are a sign of psychological imbalance.

what if you've simply nothing to live for? exhausted all possibilities, no interests, friends and the like. that's just unfortunate, not a sign of psychological imbalance. hmm I still think if the individuals will to live is depleted it's up to them. living in depression and medication is no life

sorry for being so off topic

 

[IcedEcliptic]

For an 82 year old? It definitely could be.

That's beside the point though. My point is that this is not something that should take place in hospitals or with doctors etc. administering.

This is very true. An old man's kidneys could fail very rapidly, during starvation and dehydration this would occur in ways that are difficult to predict. There is a reason of course, why most people are stuck with saline IV.

Let us not pretend that this is a scientific endeavor, but I don't understand the disgust that this is being medically supervised in India. Their laws are different from those of Canada, Europe, the US, and other countries. Likely that this man will not die or suffer damage, but it is a pointless exercise. If this man and Indian officials wish to waste time in this fashion, it is no riskier than Phase I clinical trials, or even Phase III. This isn't a smart use of time or effort, but it isn't criminal I think.

This man can stop at any time, which he probably has. If it is a hoax on the part of the so-called scientists involved, then there is no risk at all, yes? If it is not, then an 82 year old man might die, but I don't see that as anything unusual. Unfortunate, and immoral I think, but not vivisection of twins either.

 

[DaveC426913]

what if you've simply nothing to live for? exhausted all possibilities, no interests, friends and the like.

This is depression.

It is artificial. Humans are social and active creatures. If they have no friends, no livelihood, no interests, no supprt network then it's because they have slipped off the rails somewhere. They can be set back on the rails.

that's just unfortunate, not a sign of psychological imbalance. hmm I still think if the individuals will to live is depleted it's up to them. living in depression and medication is no life

You are suggesting that people can achieve a state of utter worthlessness (no value to anyone or anything). As well as that it is possible to achieve this state with no hope of recovery even with the best resources.

I think that, if people felt it were possible for our world to be so bleak that this can be accepted, there would be a lot MORE suicides.


No. Most of us choose to believe we live in a world where there is never no hope.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

This is depression.



You are suggesting that people can achieve a state of utter worthlessness (no value to anyone or anything). As well as that it is possible to achieve this state with no hope of recovery even with the best resources.

I think that, if people felt it were possible for our world to be so bleak that this can be accepted, there would be a lot MORE suicides.


No. Most of us choose to believe we live in a world where there is never no hope.

Eveo, if you are feeling this way, you should be helped you know? Depression is an often fatal mental illness, which is treatable in a number of ways. Why rush to death, when it comes for us all in time? "Where there is life, there is hope."

From Summer Knight by Jim Butcher: Aurora: "Wait, you don't understand! I just wanted it to stop, just wanted the hurting to stop."... response from Dresden: "The only people who don't hurt, are dead..." Aurora, "I don't understand..." [dies] DRESDEN [speaking to her lifeless body]: "Neither do I..."

Unless you've discovered that you have contracted Ebola Zaire, or something equally dire, there is no sane reason to commit suicide, outside of war perhaps, but is that sane?

 

[BigFairy]

Wow, i just read this whole thread :S

 

[phyzmatix]

For Pete's Sake what's wrong with you people? Are you being [doublyitalicized]deliberately[/doublyitalicized] obtuse?? :grumpy

I wholeheartedly agree with you Dave, don't get why there's even a discussion about it.

Wow, i just read this whole thread :S

And you didn't even mouth the words!

 

[motoroller]

Hopefully someone will post here when the results are announced. Is he still without food and, mor importantly, food?

 

[phyzmatix]

I've looked, but no luck so far. Seems as if no-one's bothered to check up on the guy in the mean time...Wonder if it will be worth contacting the Telegraph newspaper?

Any of you British perhaps? *nudge nudge*

 

[motoroller]

I've looked, but no luck so far. Seems as if no-one's bothered to check up on the guy in the mean time...Wonder if it will be worth contacting the Telegraph newspaper?

Any of you British perhaps? *nudge nudge*

What difference would that make?

 

[IcedEcliptic]

What difference would that make?

You would be able to deliver the news in a crisp accent, with excellent grammar? Perhaps he is thinking that the British get a first run of all telegraph and BBC programming. I find this very funny!

 

[phyzmatix]

You would be able to deliver the news in a crisp accent, with excellent grammar? Perhaps he is thinking that the British get a first run of all telegraph and BBC programming. I find this very funny!

Perhaps you should give it some thought before you make assumptions about me and/or how I think. It would probably be easier/more beneficial for a Brit to contact them since

1. They might never respond to a query made through their website's contact forms, whereas a phonecall makes for direct contact with their operation. Now, how much do you think such a phonecall would cost from within the UK as opposed to from without?

2. Should you decide to go for the contact form in any case, the Telegraph requires a phone nr...do you think it will help if I provide them with my contact details in Africa?

3. Even if I do go for a contact form (with my contact details in Africa) then I think it reasonable to conclude that they receive hundreds (if not thousands) of requests through their site. This possibly results in massive delays in response time meaning our friend the 82 year old's story (maybe even body) could already be cold by the time they get around to it, thereby ensuring no follow-up article worth publishing...so we're back to point (1).

Now does my reasoning, although perhaps not entirely foolproof, manage to stand up to the scrutiny of your phenomenal deductive prowess? Maybe even carry away with it a minor concession or hint of approval?

 

[rewebster]

Someone walked into his hospital room today and saw the old guy munching on a double Whopper with cheese, and a milk shake.

The old guy looked up and said, "No, no, no... this is not food or water...

...I call this stuff richalomas and tolamenis...

...so you see, it is NOT food and water!"

 

[chuck654]

Maybe he´s only russian, they can easily survive on vodka alone, they even make a soup with it...

 

[libath]

Someone walked into his hospital room today and saw the old guy munching on a double Whopper with cheese, and a milk shake.

The old guy looked up and said, "No, no, no... this is not food or water...

...I call this stuff richalomas and tolamenis...

...so you see, it is NOT food and water!"

Yeah, right? It's FAST food, it's not real food and it doesn't count. . . the shake isn't water either.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Yeah, right? It's FAST food, it's not real food and it doesn't count. . . the shake isn't water either.

Heh, the shake is agar-agar and rat turds. =) Oh, and vodka!

 

[hobbiest_2k3]

what all you guys are talking about
read first few lines of the news.

Prahlad Jani is being held in isolation in a hospital in Ahmedabad, Gurjarat, where he is being closely monitored by India's defence research organization, who believe he may have a genuine quality which could help save lives.

INDIAN DEFENCE RESEARCH ORGANITATION is not / can not be FRAUD.

look at what IDRO work:-
India's Defence Research Development Organisation, whose scientists develop drone aircraft, intercontinental ballistic missiles and new types of bombs.

Think Again Before Commenting.

br
hobbiest_2k3

 

[Borg]

what all you guys are talking about
read first few lines of the news.

Prahlad Jani is being held in isolation in a hospital in Ahmedabad, Gurjarat, where he is being closely monitored by India's defence research organization, who believe he may have a genuine quality which could help save lives.

INDIAN DEFENCE RESEARCH ORGANITATION is not / can not be FRAUD.

look at what IDRO work:-
India's Defence Research Development Organisation, whose scientists develop drone aircraft, intercontinental ballistic missiles and new types of bombs.

Think Again Before Commenting.

br
hobbiest_2k3

Ever heard of a http://www.thefreedictionary.com/joke" ? If people are serious, they will post a link. Do you have one that has the current status? It's been over two weeks since he started his fast and no updates have been posted on his status. Makes people wonder what's going on.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Ever heard of a http://www.thefreedictionary.com/joke" ? If people are serious, they will post a link. Do you have one that has the current status? It's been over two weeks since he started his fast and no updates have been posted on his status. Makes people wonder what's going on.

Possibly the IDRO realized that they were merely gullible, and the man was the fraud? :)

 

[rtved]

Ever heard of a http://www.thefreedictionary.com/joke" ? If people are serious, they will post a link. Do you have one that has the current status? It's been over two weeks since he started his fast and no updates have been posted on his status. Makes people wonder what's going on.

Here is the latest(link)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ars-Why-eminent-doctors-taking-seriously.html

"quote..

The medical experts of Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS) undertook an intense medical observation of 'Mataji'
...

Giving preliminary details of the exercise to mediapersons, Dr Ila Vazgan of DIPAS and Dr Sudhir Shah of a local hospital confirmed that Mr Jani had not consumed any food, or had any water or passed any urine or stool during the 15-day exercise from April 22 to May 6.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Here is the latest(link)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ars-Why-eminent-doctors-taking-seriously.html

"quote..

The medical experts of Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS) undertook an intense medical observation of 'Mataji'
...

Giving preliminary details of the exercise to mediapersons, Dr Ila Vazgan of DIPAS and Dr Sudhir Shah of a local hospital confirmed that Mr Jani had not consumed any food, or had any water or passed any urine or stool during the 15-day exercise from April 22 to May 6.

Challenged to prove that he could survive without food or water, in 2003 he underwent his first hospital investigations. Then, as now, he was placed under the care of Dr Sudhir Shah, a consultant neurologist from Ahmedabad who specialises in studying people with seemingly ‘supernatural’ powers.

Question the source.

 

[DaveC426913]

Question the source.

I get the feeling you're assuming he's pro-supernatural. He may well be an avid debunker.

 

[DaveC426913]

You know, for all those readers who have dismissed this as nonsense, it appears the claim does have some legs after all. It does seem to occurring in the light of rigorous and adequate observation under the eye of a doctor. I'm not suggesting there's anything to it yet, there's no mention of testing him to see if he's still healthy, but if he has gone 15 days without water, that alone is noteworthy.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

You know, for all those readers who have dismissed this as nonsense, it appears the claim does have some legs after all. It does seem to occurring in the light of rigorous and adequate observation under the eye of a doctor. I'm not suggesting there's anything to it yet, there's no mention of testing him to see if he's still healthy, but if he has gone 15 days without water, that alone is noteworthy.

I would like to know more about this doctor before I believe such amazing claims.

 

[stevenb]

... it appears the claim does have some legs after all...

The claim has had legs since its birth: - precisely two of them with webbed feet. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. - A big fat fraudulent duck.

 

[rtved]

I would like to know more about this doctor before I believe such amazing claims.

Perhaps you could have read the link which you have asked for.It is a team of doctors and other supporting medical staff and overseen by a biologist from defence research organisation of Government of India .

From the link:

So, on April 22(2010), Mr Jani re-entered the hospital for 15 days of tests. They ended on Thursday afternoon with doctors admitting that they were baffled by what they had seen.

and ...

Presenting their preliminary findings, Dr Shah was joined by biologist Dr Ilavashagn, director of the Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS)http://www.drdo.org/labs/dipas/index.html" , a heavily-funded department of the Defence Research and Development Organisation.

The doctors announced that despite apparently living on thin air for two weeks, the holy man was more healthy than someone half his age.

Blood tests, hormone profiles, MRIs and angiographs (imaging tests of the blood vessels) all pointed to the conclusion that Mr Jani had not needed to eat, drink or use the toilet once.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ars-Why-eminent-doctors-taking-seriously.html

Notes: Dr shah is the one who did the study in 2003 he is now helping the Defence (Military) organisation.

 

[Evo]

Notes: Dr shah is the one who did the study in 2003 he is now helping the Defence (Military) organisation.

‘Dr Shah has been in charge of three similar investigations over the past ten years, and he has never allowed independent verification.

'In 2000, he was asking for funds to investigate a man he claimed got his energy from the sun, just like plants do.

‘In 2003, he even approached NASA for funds to investigate Mr Jani, claiming astronauts might benefit from the research. This particular hospital, led by this particular doctor, keeps on making these claims without ever producing evidence or publishing research.’

Mr Edamaruku is convinced that Mr Jani must have had access to food and water at the hospital, and does not believe that he was kept under strict supervision around the clock.

He says that whenever the Rationalist Association has investigated individuals making similar claims, all have been exposed as frauds.

In 1999, they investigated a woman who claimed that she was the reincarnation of another Hindu goddess. For five years, she had remained alone in a small closet where it was claimed she had not eaten nor passed any urine or faeces.

In co-operation with the police, investigators from the association searched the room, finding a toilet hidden behind a shelf and a disguised hole through which she received food. Blood tests revealed the presence of glucose, indicating the intake of food.

To further prove the case, a gas was released into the room that made the woman vomit. The contents of her stomach were found to include pieces of recently-eaten chapatti and potatoes.

Looks like work by Dr Shaw is very questionable.

 

[stevenb]

What is interesting is that, in fact, the man did clearly have access to water. It says so explicitly. He was given water to wash his mouth out. The trick is so obvious. The water was measured afterwards to be sure that he didn't drink any. Can anyone guess how a magician could fool you in these circumstances? Gee, maybe the disappearing urine has something to do with it. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

Also, I'll point out that a good magician always has more than one trick up his sleeve, and often has an assistant.

 

[rtved]

What is interesting is that, in fact, the man did clearly have access to water. It says so explicitly.

In the latest study he was allowed access to Water after 5th day.

He was given water to wash his mouth out. The trick is so obvious. The water was measured afterwards to be sure that he didn't drink any.

Not so obvious to many.Perhaps in the next study somebody can rope in criss angel or david blaine or... Even James Randy.

 

[Antiphon]

Lock him in a room for a month. Will he be Schroedinger's Fakir? The superposition of states in this case will be ouside the box between beleivers and skeptics.

 

[rtved]

Looks like work by Dr Shaw is very questionable.

Quite possible.BUT in the new study He is not In charge of the investigation.

 

[pallidin]

Unless his vital organs are bionic, there is no way they can continue to function without chemical sustenance.
Having no outside source, the human body will start feeding on itself; the human fat for the carbohydrates and the human muscle for amino acids/proteins. Thus, he would surely be skin and bones in just several months. Then he would die.

As for water, if he were in an extremely humid air environment AND immersed in water up to his neck, his lungs and skin "might" absorb enough water to survive. But not likely for very long.

In short, I call this claim BOGUS.