A demonstration on the necessary positive change in the entropy

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around demonstrating that the change in entropy for a system of two bodies at different temperatures, T1 and T2, is positive when they reach thermal equilibrium. The original poster is working with the heat capacities of the bodies and the relationship between their temperatures and number of particles.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Conceptual clarification

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the implications of conservation of energy and how it relates to the temperatures and heat capacities of the two bodies. There are attempts to manipulate the entropy equations and inequalities to demonstrate the positive change in entropy.

Discussion Status

Some participants have offered insights into the relationship between the heat transfer and the changes in entropy, while others question the necessity of considering small changes in temperature for a formal demonstration. The discussion is ongoing, with various interpretations and approaches being explored.

Contextual Notes

There is a focus on the conditions under which the bodies reach thermal equilibrium, specifically the assumptions regarding the temperatures and the number of particles involved. The original poster expresses uncertainty about proving the inequality related to entropy change.

Rulonegger
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Homework Statement


Hello everyone. My problem is as follows: In a spontaneous process where two bodies at different temperatures T_{1} and T_{2}, where T_{1}>T_{2}, are put together until they reach thermal equilibrium. The number of atoms or molecules of the first is N_{1} and N_{2} for the second one, with N_{1} \neq N_{2}, and they have heat capacities equal to C_{V_{1}}=aN_{1}k and C_{V_{2}}=aN_{2}k, with a given with the appropriate units. Past some sufficiently large time, the system reaches a temperature T, provided that T_{1}>T>T_{2}, which is in function of the initial temperatures and the number of atoms or molecules of the two bodies. The problem is that i can't demonstate that the change of the entropy of the system as a whole is positive, i.e. \bigtriangleup S>0

Homework Equations


When i compute the change of the entropy for the i-th body, i get
\bigtriangleup S_{i}=\int_{T_{i}}^T \! \frac{1}{T} \, \mathrm{d} Q=\int_{T_{i}}^T \! \frac{aN_{i}k}{T} \, \mathrm{d} T=aN_{i}k\int_{T_{i}}^T \! \frac{1}{T} \, \mathrm{d} T=aN_{i}k\ln{\frac{T}{T_{i}}}
With the hypothesis that the entropy is an extensive property, then \bigtriangleup S=\bigtriangleup S_{1}+\bigtriangleup S_{2}=aN_{1}k\ln{\frac{T}{T_{1}}}+aN_{2}k\ln{\frac{T}{T_{2}}}
So i just have to prove that N_{1}\ln{\frac{T}{T_{1}}}+N_{2}\ln{\frac{T}{T_{2}}} > 0

The Attempt at a Solution


I think that i have to use the two cases (N_{1}>N_{2} and N_{1}<N_{2}), and using the fact that T_{1}>T>T_{2}, to prove the inequality, but i have tried to do it in very different ways, and i get nothing, so i think there is some trick to demonstrating that, but I'm still a bit of an amateur in proving tricky inequalities.
 
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Don't you need conservation of energy? Otherwise there's nothing to stop both ending arbitrarily close to T2.
 
Actually I've used conservation of energy, and i can determine the temperature T of equilibrium, which is T=\frac{N_{1}T_{1}+N_{2}T_{2}}{N_{1}+N_{2}}but when i substitute that expression on the inequality, the later just complicates a little bit more. In despite of this, i think i must substitute T in the inequality, but i get nothing again.
 
I'm sure it can be done this way, but I feel that performing the integral just makes life harder. Consider a small dQ transferred. The hotter body loses dQ/T1, the cooler gains dQ/T2. Since T1 > T2, the sum has increased.
 
Thanks haruspex. If i understand, you say that dS=dS_{1}+dS_{2}=\frac{dQ}{T_{1}}+\frac{dQ}{T_{2}}With the fact that T_{1}>T_{2}, therefore a small dQ transferred between them would lead a change in the first entropy which is smaller than the change of the second one, without sayin anything about C_{V_{1}} nor C_{V_{2}}? But maybe i should take into account a small change in the temperature T_{1} and in T_{2} just to get a formal demonstration, don't you think?
 
Rulonegger said:
dS=dS_{1}+dS_{2}=\frac{dQ}{T_{1}}+\frac{dQ}{T_{2}}
dS=dS_{1}+dS_{2}=\frac{-dQ}{T_{1}}+\frac{dQ}{T_{2}}
But maybe i should take into account a small change in the temperature T_{1} and in T_{2} just to get a formal demonstration, don't you think?
Yes, I suppose strictly you should say ΔS1 ≥ -dQ/(T1 + ΔT1) and ΔS2 ≥ dQ/(T2 + ΔT2) (ΔT1 being negative). You will probably also need to specify T1 + ΔT1 > T2 + ΔT2, i.e. the deltas are small enough that the temperatures do not cross over.
 
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